Soldered Storage: A Design Choice

[120FPS]

What's that benefit? It's not obvious to me. All I can think of is to prevent people from buying much more memory than their passively cooled thermal-throttled cpu can handle.

Anyhow there is no big fundamental difference between short-term memory and long-term storage. Soldered versus upgradeable has largely the same benefits and detriments in both cases.

Or you could empty your storage on an external ssd drive? Those will get cheaper later in the computers life too.

The usability doesn't really shrink with storage size, but with storage speed. You can't add a faster system bus later on. Or a faster USB port for external storage either.

SATA 3 had a speed limit of 600MB/s. Unlucky me I had a unibody MBP from 2010 with SATA 2. While you could easily upgrade the size of storage, storage speed sucked even with an SSD.

I bet the usable lifetime of Macs has only increased with solder and glue. As for the users ability to avoid Apple's crazy upgrade prices, that's another story.

External storage is such a janky solution that requires users to file manage beyond their computer, that's not why I have a computer. Just get me a big coat and I'll dangle my drives on the inside, let's hope they do not fail or get lost.

A lot of the rationale from people here seems to come down to: "why aren't you giving Apple all your money? Just stop questioning and give them all your money."

 

[Gudi]

Apple went to soldered RAM 10 years ago, and soldered storage 6 years ago. What's the point in complaining about this now?

Apple went USB-only with the very first iMac G3 in 1998 and still people complain about the lack of different ports. People want Macs, because they are nice, but they don't want to adhere to the special Apple design philosophy, which made them nicer, smaller, lighter and cooler than other PCs.

 

[120FPS]

He is a new member, and we already saw how many new members makes kind of pointless new topics

I've been here under a different username for an old account so not really new. I am pretty sure I have commented on this ages ago and all the apologists came out the woodwork then too. The thing is I gave Apple the benefit of the doubt by buying into what they were selling and it has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm allowed to express my opinion as are others.

 

[Gudi]

External storage is such a janky solution that requires users to file manage beyond their computer, that's not why I have a computer.

Just pay up for the convenience! My movie database is 6 TB, it wouldn't fit on any internal SSD. If you want cheap and large storage, it is always going to be slow, loud and external.

 

[MayaUser]

I've been here under a different username for an old account so not really new. I am pretty sure I have commented on this ages ago and all the apologists came out the woodwork then too. The thing is I gave Apple the benefit of the doubt by buying into what they were selling and it has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm allowed to express my opinion as are others.

who said that you are not allowed to do that? My message wasnt even for you. Why you dont use your old account then?

 

[120FPS]

who said that you are not allowed to do that? My message wasnt even for you. Why you dont use your old account then?

I can't remember my registration details, this was before password managers were a thing. It just seemed easier to start a new account.

 

[MayaUser]

I can't remember my registration details, this was before password managers were a thing. It just seemed easier to start a new account.

so like the other user asked you...in over 5-6 years you still cant get over Apple decisions? Why you stay with Apple then since its clear Apple affects you very hard with their decisions

 

[Gudi]

Soldered-on components can have much higher connector density and boast better electrical properties. It’s very hard to have modular high-bandwidth, energy efficient modular interfaces.

The operational requirements are vastly different. RAM needs to be much faster and operate much more efficiently [than SSD].

Sure, but with regards to soldered-or-modular it's the exact same story. Soldered SSDs can also be much faster and more energy efficient than their modular counterparts. What's good for RAM is also good for SSD, albeit on another speed level.

 

[120FPS]

Just pay up for the convenience! My movie database is 6 TB, it wouldn't fit on any internal SSD. If you want cheap and large storage, it is always going to be slow, loud and external.

I have a 36TB server for backup, storing projects and media.

I still think Apple's approach is fundamentally and morally wrong in regard to storage but as usual the hostages think Apple can do no wrong. This is about respecting your customers, not treating them like idiots, especially given Apple's history.

 

[120FPS]

so like the other user asked you...in over 5-6 years you still cant get over Apple decisions? Why you stay with Apple then since its clear Apple affects you very hard with their decisions

I love macOS, ideally I want to carry on using it. It would be a big investment to move to Windows just in regard to software and the time it takes to get used to it. If I move to windows then it doesn't make sense to have anything Apple for me at that point so no iPhone, Apple Watch or iPad either. It's not an easy thing to change ecosystems.

 

[LinkRS]

I’d say (after running the IT department of a fairly large research group) that most businesses don’t care. From businesses perspective, it doesn’t matter what and how is replaced, they just want to avoid downtime. Support is a black box - you give them your broken computer and you want to get one that works back ASAP. For a small business, a support contract that offers rental machines to avoid downtime is much cheaper than running their own support department who takes care of repairs or upgrades. For a large business it’s even easier as they are more likely to have a park of unused computers for quick emergencies.



Same as it was before. That’s a very niche requirement and customers who need that kind of computer are probably not looking for a Mac anyway. Sure, the Mac Pro does support huge amounts of RAM, so an upcoming AS MP will either support it too or it won’t. Either way, not much changes for Apple‘s business. It was never their market.



Erm, Time Machine?

From my experience, when you work in an industry (or business) where secrecy and asset control are paramount, it is much preferred for components to be swapped out vices whole systems. Replacing a whole system is always the last recourse, and modular systems are always preferred. We do use support contracts, with special clauses in the agreements to keep broken hardware for us to dispose of, to ensure secrecy and asset control. We even keep and dispose of faulty RAM DIMMs when replaced.

Re-reading my own post, I am not sure what I was thinking with regards to backing up internal drives. The only thing that comes to mind is that since the main SSD is part of the logic board, unless they do as mentioned in a previous post and use a mechanism such as in the Mac Studio, a complete logic board would need to be swapped out if it failed. With regards to Time Machine, that is not approved for our use. Plus, we are not allowed to have physical access to removable drives for security reasons. I seem to recall that backing up via Time Machine over the network is now possible, but I have no experience with that?

 

[LinkRS]

Stop thinking! Repair and maintenance is a huge labor cost. Industry by far prefers the unupgradable tool that just works out of the box. Tinkering with your PC is a private hobby for people who don't calculate their own labor costs.

Sorry, not sure what your point is? I was not talking to tinkering with computers. I would agree that tinkering is more a hobby than something done by businesses. I was talking about maintenance and service. It is not practical to ALWAYS replace a whole unit when it fails. Not even Dell or HP (first hand experience with these two companies regarding an issue where a system needed to be replaced within the pat year) want to replace entire systems every time.

 

[Gudi]

A lot of the rationale from people here seems to come down to: "why aren't you giving Apple all your money?"

Absolutely not, my argument is most people could live with the 8GB/256GB entry configuration just fine and upgrading is neither necessary nor cost effective! But since you want bigger internal storage, there are two ways to get it. Pay Apple directly or pay for someone's maxed out second-hand Mac. The second option is usually much cheaper. Macs retain much of their retail value, but their overpriced upgrades don't.

I have a 36TB server for backup, storing projects and media.

Which makes it even harder to understand your complaint?

I still think Apple's approach is fundamentally and morally wrong in regard to storage but as usual the hostages think Apple can do no wrong. This is about respecting your customers, not treating them like idiots, especially given Apple's history.

It's the other way around. Apple's customers are indeed idiots. That's why they often think, they need more memory and storage than they actually do. And for those few professional customers, who do render 8K videos all day for a living, the prices for large amounts of ultrafast memory and storage are even worth it.

Apple does a lot of morally wrong things. Preventing side-loading apps on the iPhone. Taking a 30% share from every 3rd party transaction within an app. Selling the entry level iMac with one fan less without telling anybody. ... This list is expandable!

 

[Queen6]

Agree. But those people who wants that ...are the casual people who doesnt even use over 60% of their capabilities of their devices because those who are real professionals understand everything and every compromises that are taken and the laws of physics

Professionals with choice simply spec their devices to their needs, don't care the cost and will have a backup system on hand irrespective of location. One simply makes a balanced decision on location, workload, battery life & portability. Thing is all Notebooks are a compromise, I've always had a portable Mac in my rotation for the sheer battery longevity as they have paid dividends over the years.

This 17" W10 Notebook is a beast, yet little to no use off the mains supply. While a 13" M1 MBP can pass 20 hours on battery. Different horses for different courses. I don't tend to keep work focused systems much passed 24/36 months as after that the risk of failure increases with ever more travel, use & abuse.

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

.upgradable Macs probably make more eWaste. Think of how many RAM sticks went straight in the bin

I think the opposite. W/o the ability to upgrade, people will just dump their old computer and get a new one. So throwing a computer in the trash is certainly going create more ewaste then one tiny little ram stick

 

[Queen6]

Vibration means they can’t use a slot?

My laptop which used socketed ram and storage is rated at 0.66 GRMS max in use and 1.3 GRMS in storage.

140G of shock in use and 160G of shock in storage.

These numbers are far greater than a portable machine would see in reasonable use.

Just search on YouTube for the ThinkPad qualification tests passing MIL-STD-810. Socketed RAM & storage is not by default a weakness. Apple has changed the frontier. The Mac is an SOC which allows for greater performance with a far lower power budget, buy what you need, don't buy more then you need to

Q-6

 

[Gudi]

Sorry, not sure what your point is? ... I was talking about maintenance and service.

Yeah, me too. Enterprises don't like tech support and maintenance costs. Apple argues backed by research that the new M1 Macs give businesses an even larger total cost of ownership (TCO) advantage over PCs than before.

Apple: Macs are best choice for enterprise​

The probability that a modular SSD connector and cable fails is much higher than a failure of the soldered SSD chip itself. And the costs for identifying and fixing the problem, plus the lost working time and rent plus heating for an unused office add up to insane amounts. Just unbox a new Mac restore from backup and keep working!

I even know private users, who threw away their not-booting MacBook Pros instead of trying to identify the problem or even sell it as defect for spare parts on Ebay. I'm mad at them, but they solved their problem in the trash.

 

[Queen6]

I think the opposite. W/o the ability to upgrade, people will just dump their old computer and get a new one. So throwing a computer in the trash is certainly going create more ewaste then one tiny little ram stick

Who puts a working computer in the trash irrespective of age? There are many entitles that repurpose old computers and put them to very good use.

All my old systems went to family or went to charity, certainly not the garbage dump and even if DOA they can be recycled...

Bottom line is so few see upgrading as being a significant factor. As said Apple has been hoovering up user data for years, they know the trend and we here are not their target audience, but from time to time they do need our approval...

One I wouldn't sell or pass on as they are notorious for failing, but 4050 days, 133 months, 11.1 years the notorious 2011 15" MBP. Sometimes Apple is the victim of its suppliers and sometimes Apple creates its own mess. My overall comment is for Apple to recognise its mistakes & it's partners mistakes faster as sooner or later court action will proceed...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Who puts a working computer in the trash irrespective of age?

Enterprises, they "recycle" computers that are replaced and when I say recycled, I mean destroyed and much of the stuff ends up in a landfill.

 

[Analog Kid]

Think of all those MBP with connectors that were just fine.

Vibration means they can’t use a slot?

My laptop which used socketed ram and storage is rated at 0.66 GRMS max in use and 1.3 GRMS in storage.

140G of shock in use and 160G of shock in storage.

These numbers are far greater than a portable machine would see in reasonable use.

“I know a time it worked” isn’t really a counter argument here. I didn’t say “it’s impossible to ship a laptop with removable modules”. I said there are technical arguments that are completely overlooked in the rush toward the broken business argument that unhappy customers make for more profitable companies and its corollary that happy customers are really unhappy customers who have been hypnotized.

 

[mcnallym]

Sorry, not sure what your point is? I was not talking to tinkering with computers. I would agree that tinkering is more a hobby than something done by businesses. I was talking about maintenance and service. It is not practical to ALWAYS replace a whole unit when it fails. Not even Dell or HP (first hand experience with these two companies regarding an issue where a system needed to be replaced within the pat year) want to replace entire systems every time.

During my year out at University so talking 1994/95 the. Even back then if anything wrong on PC, was simply swapped out for a new machine and the machine taken away and then looked at afterwards.
we are talking almost 30 years ago, so isn’t new.
got the user up and running and then deal with what wrong afterwards when not under the clock.

 

[LinkRS]

Yeah, me too. Enterprises don't like tech support and maintenance costs. Apple argues backed by research that the new M1 Macs give businesses an even larger total cost of ownership (TCO) advantage over PCs than before.

Apple: Macs are best choice for enterprise​

The probability that a modular SSD connector and cable fails is much higher than a failure of the soldered SSD chip itself. And the costs for identifying and fixing the problem, plus the lost working time and rent plus heating for an unused office add up to insane amounts. Just unbox a new Mac restore from backup and keep working!

I even know private users, who threw away their not-booting MacBook Pros instead of trying to identify the problem or even sell it as defect for spare parts on Ebay. I'm mad at them, but they solved their problem in the trash.

Of course Apple would say that. In some industries that may be true, but for mine.... I look around and there are zero Apple products, everything is HP or Dell, depending where in its refresh cycle it is, as they often swap as support contracts end. We never keep machines beyond the support date, and refresh every 3 to 5 years. Where I am, you are not allowed to bring in personal mobile devices, and we use Microsoft 365 services pretty much exclusively. Many programs we use are not even available on a Mac.

As for just unboxing a new computer and restoring from a backup, that won't work everywhere. Depending on how your corporate structure is setup, you may have to wait awhile to gain access to your backups. Plus, there will be downtime for the restore time, plus chances are your backup isn't even current. So you will have to figure out where you were to resume. Vices if you just replace the failed component, and unless it is the SSD, you are back up in 10 to 15 minutes. For low-cost devices we typically have a replace it immediately path, but for the more expensive components, it is a "fix-it" rather than replace.

Of course, I have never been in a place that uses Apple hardware, maybe that swap idea is more commonplace in those areas? Regardless, none of these are a one-size fits all solution.

 

[LinkRS]

During my year out at University so talking 1994/95 the. Even back then if anything wrong on PC, was simply swapped out for a new machine and the machine taken away and then looked at afterwards.
we are talking almost 30 years ago, so isn’t new.
got the user up and running and then deal with what wrong afterwards when not under the clock.

Your use of the term 'University" makes me think you are not in the US? Back in 1994/95 I was still in the US military and we didn't even have personal computers we used. There was typically one "office" computer and it was shared by all, we didn't have professional email and there was no access to the (still a "new" thing) Internet. In fact, we were running Windows for Workgroups 3.11. When those computers broke, it was either fix it ourselves, or go without. Fortunately it wasn't needed to get our jobs done, so when it went down it was only an annoyance. One time we got an upgrade budget, which allowed us to upgrade the CPU to a 386DX and another 2 MBs of RAM (total of 4 MBs), and we were grateful. My point is, that depending on your specific business/industry how support handled differently. 😎

 

[leman]

I still think Apple's approach is fundamentally and morally wrong in regard to storage but as usual the hostages think Apple can do no wrong. This is about respecting your customers, not treating them like idiots, especially given Apple's history.

Of course, because people who don’t share your opinion are hostages and folks who don’t need uogradeable storage are idiots. Well done. What a way to deliver an argument.

From my experience, when you work in an industry (or business) where secrecy and asset control are paramount, it is much preferred for components to be swapped out vices whole systems. Replacing a whole system is always the last recourse, and modular systems are always preferred. We do use support contracts, with special clauses in the agreements to keep broken hardware for us to dispose of, to ensure secrecy and asset control. We even keep and dispose of faulty RAM DIMMs when replaced.

Re-reading my own post, I am not sure what I was thinking with regards to backing up internal drives. The only thing that comes to mind is that since the main SSD is part of the logic board, unless they do as mentioned in a previous post and use a mechanism such as in the Mac Studio, a complete logic board would need to be swapped out if it failed. With regards to Time Machine, that is not approved for our use. Plus, we are not allowed to have physical access to removable drives for security reasons. I seem to recall that backing up via Time Machine over the network is now possible, but I have no experience with that?

Sounds to me like you are in an industry with very special requirements, so that’s of course an entirely different game. Time Machine works quite well over network. You can even set it up via Organisation profile so that all your clients automatically back up to your data server while in the network.

 

[JouniS]

If 8/256 was inadequate Apple would increase as anyone who likes, loathes, or at very least understands a little of Apple's mantra it's about the user experience, its paramount only to profit. Given how much data Apple hoovers up, they likely have a good grasp of the majority of user's needs...

This design philosophy is a key reason why I've never really liked Macs even though I've been primarily a Mac user for ~15 years.

Capabilities (such as RAM/SSD size and the number/types of ports) determine what a computer can do. Performance determines how quickly it can do it, and efficiency determines how much power it will use. In terms of performance and efficiency, Apple is always trying to make the best computers they can, within the constraints they have. At the same time, they are always trying to sell the least capable computers they can get away with.

I use computers as data processing tools, which makes capabilities important to me. When it's time to upgrade, it's always a gamble whether Apple is selling anything worth upgrading to. Today the laptops are good but the desktops are underwhelming.