Star Wars Expanded Universe

[Huntn]

Indeed, but also remember this film was in trouble, Colin Trevorrow stepped down (or was fired, I don't know), and Gareth Edwards steps in and orders a new ending, major rewrites and a lot of reshoots. Some charachters that we were looking forward to seeing more of, lost out, such as Saw Gerrera.

I'm not complaining, because Disney and Edwards made the right decisions, and the final product was excellent. Aside from the original trilogy, this is the best Star Wars movie.

The trouble with producing new films for a beloved franchise is complex imo.

First new movies will almost always mess with people's ideals of what that franchise ought to be. There's no way to get around this, Luke's new force powers are a prime example. You cannot tell a new story without introducing new elements. You can't have new plots, new situations when you're using the same charachters, abilities and flaws as the original film. It just becomes a retread, i.e., complaints about Force Awakens.

The second issue is flamiliarty breeds contempt. What I mean by this is that for many people, Star Wars is special and part of that specialness is its rareity. We have the orginal trilogy, we then had the new prequels, and some of the cartoons that filled the storyline for the prequels. Now we're seeing annual releases, and I think that may very well dilute the brand. It stops being special because its not rare.

I agree!

I was very dissapointed that we could enjoy these new characters for only one movie. And as you know, my chastising of the 7&8 involves blantantly recycling, not nearly enough new. The franchise does not deserve to live if the best they can do is put the viewer in a glorified time loop. I specifically don’t want been there, done that because it diminishes the original trilogy.

I also agree with the danger of dilution, especially magnified if they are making bad movies. Here my focus on bad concerns the inability, or worse the calculated $$$ choice of not telling a great NEW story, instead reliance on milking old ideas. As far as my entertainment expectations, it greatly concerns me.

I mean the number of similarities that 7 has with what came before is blatantly obvious to the extent that it’s a crutch, which I can only assume is because of a dearth of the originality and creativity required to keep the franchise respectable and healthy.

Besides beautiful cinematography and being bothered that everyone dies, subsequent viewings of Rogue One has made me aware that this movie is amazingly true to the vibe of the original trilogy, it lands solidly in that SWSP (Star Wars Special Place) even though it includes several nods to the past, they did not over do it.

 

[maflynn]

mean the number of similarities that 7 has with what came before is blatantly obvious to the extent that it’s a crutch

I really enjoyed the Force Awakens, it was an aweome movie when it premiered, however as I had time to digest the movie, I fully agree. The criticisms of it being a rip-off of a New Hope are quite accurate.

I think JJ Abrams did a good job stiching together the story. What I mean by that, if you ignore the fact that its a copy, and look at it in a vacuum if you will see that it has great charachters, good action, some nice plot twists. Yet at the end of the day, we have a giant planet killer that can only be destroyed by blowing up the cooling vent by a small group of rebels, just in time before they shoot the weapon at those rebels.

Consider this as a track record of Abrams. Star Trek Into Darkness. If you recall Abrams stated they needed to reboot the franchise to offer fresh ideas and not be shackled by years and years of prior movies/shows. Yet when they rolled out Into the Darkness, it was a clone of the Wrath of Khan. Like the Force Awakens, if you ignore that fact, its not a bad movie, but you can't.

 

[Huntn]

I really enjoyed the Force Awakens, it was an aweome movie when it premiered, however as I had time to digest the movie, I fully agree. The criticisms of it being a rip-off of a New Hope are quite accurate.

I think JJ Abrams did a good job stiching together the story. What I mean by that, if you ignore the fact that its a copy, and look at it in a vacuum if you will see that it has great charachters, good action, some nice plot twists. Yet at the end of the day, we have a giant planet killer that can only be destroyed by blowing up the cooling vent by a small group of rebels, just in time before they shoot the weapon at those rebels.

Consider this as a track record of Abrams. Star Trek Into Darkness. If you recall Abrams stated they needed to reboot the franchise to offer fresh ideas and not be shackled by years and years of prior movies/shows. Yet when they rolled out Into the Darkness, it was a clone of the Wrath of Khan. Like the Force Awakens, if you ignore that fact, its not a bad movie, but you can't.

More agreement!
I liked Into Darkness as a remake of the WoK as I’ve basically not been a fan of any of the Star Trek movies prior to Abrams getting hold of them. However, his last Star Trek movie Beyond was a train wreck and I agree that he is much more the master of recycling than he is of new ideas, although Lost was stellar and original (I think).

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Prophetic inlight of the half assed cannon that has despoiled the Star Wars universe of late.

Yeah. But I hate being right that time.
[doublepost=1516311658][/doublepost]

I really enjoyed the Force Awakens, it was an aweome movie when it premiered, however as I had time to digest the movie, I fully agree. The criticisms of it being a rip-off of a New Hope are quite accurate.

I think JJ Abrams did a good job stiching together the story. What I mean by that, if you ignore the fact that its a copy, and look at it in a vacuum if you will see that it has great charachters, good action, some nice plot twists. Yet at the end of the day, we have a giant planet killer that can only be destroyed by blowing up the cooling vent by a small group of rebels, just in time before they shoot the weapon at those rebels.

Consider this as a track record of Abrams. Star Trek Into Darkness. If you recall Abrams stated they needed to reboot the franchise to offer fresh ideas and not be shackled by years and years of prior movies/shows. Yet when they rolled out Into the Darkness, it was a clone of the Wrath of Khan. Like the Force Awakens, if you ignore that fact, its not a bad movie, but you can't.

Abrams got the feel of a Star Wars movie right. I remember being excited to see it, but as more and more of it repeated New Hope, I had a growing sinking feeling. I still came out of the cinema happy, and my first thoughts about the movie were very positive. It was after all, the first Star Wars movie for decades.

However, on a second viewing some months later, the repetition of ANH really began to grate. I could just about accept a reboot at that stage, given the flaws of the prequels, and the passage of time, however I take a much dimmer view of TLJ. There really were better options for all of the key decisions, and I think it substantially detracts from the franchise.

I would much rather they had brought Gareth Edwards in to save TLJ too. It really needed saving.

I am more generous to Abrams re Star Trek, partly because it's not a franchise I care about as much, but also I understand that it was hard to write anything that wasn't already dealt with in the timeline of one version of the franchise or another.

 

[maflynn]

I stumbled upon a rare and enjoyable interview with Sir Alec Guinness

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

@maflynn That's a great find. Well done. It's great to see Sir Alex talking positively of it.

 

[kazmac]

I stumbled upon a rare and enjoyable interview with Sir Alec Guinness

That's lovely, given his later feelings about it.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Huntn]

In prep for watching the Clone War series, I decided to watch Star Wars Episode 1. Besides misplaced comedic elements and an unconvincing Annakin, not so bad. Here is the refresher spoiler summary:

​

Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Summary

• Naboo- The Trade Federation is invading Naboo to force a trade pack with Princess Amidala.
• 2 Jedi Knights Obiwan Kenobe and Qui-Gon Jinn sent by the Republic to negotiate the conflict are attacked on board the Trade Federation Ship.
• Little do they know that Darth Sidius is commanding the Trade Federation. Nor do they know that Sidius
  Spoiler: The primary spoiler

  is Senator Palpatine who is tying the Senate up to allow
  the Trade Federation to force a trade treaty on Naboo. The Sith are thought to no longer exist.
• The Jedi Knights leave Naboo with Princess Amidala and R2-D2 and land on Tatooine where they run into a very young Annakin Skywalker, a slave living with his slave mom.
• Annakin built C-3PO. Jinn identifies him as Force gifted asks about the father and his Mom claims it was a virgin pregnancy and birth. https://screenrant.com/star-wars-anakin-father-emperor/. https://screenrant.com/star-wars-anakin-father-emperor/2/
• Darth Sidius sends his apprentice Darth Maul to kill the Jedi Knights and bring Amidala back to Naboo to sign the treaty.
• For a pod race Jinn bets with Annakin’s owner for ship repair parts and Annakin’s freedom.
• A brief fight between Jinn and Maul before they escape Tatooine and go to the planet Coruscant, completely covered by buildings.
• Jinn believes that Annakin exists to bring balance to the force and pushes for Annakin to be trained as a Jedi Knight.
• Palpatine orchestrates replacement of the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic so that he can take control of the Senate.
• Amidala elects to return to Naboo.
• On Naboo she negotiates a pact with the Gungans to fight the Trade Federation so she can sneak into the city.
• Big Darth Maul fight on Naboo, Jinn is killed. Obiwan prevails over Maul.
• Annakin larks around in a fighter that he more or less takes off in accidentally and destroys the Trade Federation Control Ship deactivating all the combat droids on Naboo.
• The Battle is over, Annakin is a Jedi Apprentice to Obiwan, and Palpitine pretends to be a friend to Naboo and Amidala.

 

[maflynn]

an unconvincing Annakin

One of the [many] mistakes is that they cast Anakin as a young child. Even having Obi Wan being so young in the phantom Menace isn't terrible for the time line. I also hated JarJar - I think both a young Anakin and JarJar were added simply to cater to a child audience to further the toys sales.

In any event, I'm one of the few people that never really hated the prequals.I enjoyed each movie and unlike the sequals, there's actually a story cohesiveness, i.e., Episode 1 flows into episode 2 into #3. Revenge of the Sith is one of my favorite Star Wars Movies and the novelization brings the story to new heights and details.

One thing that I really love and I have to believe it was intentional, Each of prequel's villain's was a foreshadowing of Darth Vader.

Darth Maul, a Sith apprentice driven by anger and revenge, in canon he desired to search out and destroy the Jedi
Grievous more machine then man
Count Dooku, a former jedi who's light saber skills were unmatched.

 

[Apple fanboy]

One of the [many] mistakes is that they cast Anakin as a young child. Even having Obi Wan being so young in the phantom Menace isn't terrible for the time line. I also hated JarJar - I think both a young Anakin and JarJar were added simply to cater to a child audience to further the toys sales.

In any event, I'm one of the few people that never really hated the prequals.I enjoyed each movie and unlike the sequals, there's actually a story cohesiveness, i.e., Episode 1 flows into episode 2 into #3. Revenge of the Sith is one of my favorite Star Wars Movies and the novelization brings the story to new heights and details.

One thing that I really love and I have to believe it was intentional, Each of prequel's villain's was a foreshadowing of Darth Vader.

Darth Maul, a Sith apprentice driven by anger and revenge, in canon he desired to search out and destroy the Jedi
Grievous more machine then man
Count Dooku, a former jedi who's light saber skills were unmatched.

I don’t hate the prequels either. Although Phantom Menace is my least favourite of the three.

 

[maflynn]

I don’t hate the prequels either. Although Phantom Menace is my least favourite of the three.

It is the weakest in terms of story and it did introduce "midichlorians" which removed some of the mystisim and mystery of the force which is a bummer.

On the flip side, The Phantom Menace has the best light saber fights. Rumor has it, that Ray Park and Ewan McGregor had to slow their fight down as they got so good at it, they were just a blur.

 

[Apple fanboy]

It is the weakest in terms of story and it did introduce "midichlorians" which removed some of the mystisim and mystery of the force which is a bummer.

On the flip side, The Phantom Menace has the best light saber fights. Rumor has it, that Ray Park and Ewan McGregor had to slow their fight down as they got so good at it, they were just a blur.

Lightsaber fights were good. But I quite enjoyed seeing Yoda flip around in episode 2 as well!

 

[Huntn]

It is the weakest in terms of story and it did introduce "midichlorians" which removed some of the mystisim and mystery of the force which is a bummer.

On the flip side, The Phantom Menace has the best light saber fights. Rumor has it, that Ray Park and Ewan McGregor had to slow their fight down as they got so good at it, they were just a blur.

The force is still mystical, the midichlorians just give the individual the ability to harness the power of the Force, no?

 

[Huntn]

Feb 2022- Added The Mandalorian series to post 1

 

[maflynn]

I don't know if I mentioned this, or someone mentioned it, but I came across some quotes or articles from George Lucas that he said that he made Star Wars for kids, and if you take that in mind with regards to the original trilogy and more so, for the prequals, that makes a ton of sense. For instance through my 18 year old eyes, (my age when Return of the Jedi), the Ewoks were stupid, but kids at ate that up

16 years had passed when the Phantom Menace was released and so the adult star wars fans were expecting adult type content, but instead got another youth focused story, i.e., Anakin as a child, Jar Jar Binks, etc.

I stumbled upon an article where the author loved the prequals, why? Because he was a kid and ate that up, those kids are now adults and they all look fondly at the prequals, just as us older folks look fondly on the original trilogy. This is also why the prequals where largely panned - adult fans had a different expectation then what was made.

With that said, my absolute favorite star wars movie was Revenge of the Sith. I know I posted that before, and I know the dialog is at times, wooden at best, but its my favorite.

 

[decafjava]

I don't know if I mentioned this, or someone mentioned it, but I came across some quotes or articles from George Lucas that he said that he made Star Wars for kids, and if you take that in mind with regards to the original trilogy and more so, for the prequals, that makes a ton of sense. For instance through my 18 year old eyes, (my age when Return of the Jedi), the Ewoks were stupid, but kids at that up

16 years had passed when the Phantom Menace was released and so the adult star wars fans were expecting adult type content, but instead got another youth focused story, i.e., Anakin as a child, Jar Jar Binks, etc.

I stumbled upon an article where the author loved the prequals, why? Because he was a kid and ate that up, those kids are now adults and they all look fondly at the prequals, just as us older folks look fondly on the original trilogy. This is also why the prequals where largely panned - adult fans had a different expectation then what was made.

With that said, my absolute favorite star wars movie was Revenge of the Sith. I know I posted that before, and I know the dialog is at times, wooden at best, but its my favorite.

Very much agree with this take though I enjoyed both the OT and PT myself. Rogue One and especially Andor - really especially Andor are very much adult shows with very serious and dark themes.

 

[Herdfan]

This is also why the prequals where largely panned - adult fans had a different expectation then what was made.

For me the sequels were OK as stories. It was just a horrible casting job of both Anakins that made the movies bad.

Very much agree with this take though I enjoyed both the OT and PT myself. Rogue One and especially Andor - really especially Andor are very much adult shows with very serious and dark themes.

Rogue One is one of the best movies of them all. And we can't wait for Andor to come back and are disappointed we only get one more season.

But The Mandolorian comes back in a month so that will give us something to bridge the gap.

 

[maflynn]

For me the sequels were OK as stories. It was just a horrible casting job of both Anakins that made the movies bad.

Do you mean the prequals? Anakin isn't in the sequels.

Story wise, I think the prequal storyline was solid. It made sense, and the pacing was decent. My opinion of the Sequels (Episodes 7 - 9) has only decreased as years gone by. I can easily watch and re-watch episodes 1 through 6. I can't say the same for Episodes 7 through 9, though The Force Awakens was the best in the lot.

I think I'll do a follow up post on my thoughts for the last three episodes.

 

[rhett7660]

Do you mean the prequals? Anakin isn't in the sequels.

Story wise, I think the prequal storyline was solid. It made sense, and the pacing was decent. My opinion of the Sequels (Episodes 7 - 9) has only decreased as years gone by. I can easily watch and re-watch episodes 1 through 6. I can't say the same for Episodes 7 through 9, though The Force Awakens was the best in the lot.

I think I'll do a follow up post on my thoughts for the last three episodes.

To be fair,,, I don't like Phantom... Episodes two and three are ok. If I had to pick one, three would be the best of the three for me. Sequels, I dislike them all and I watched, well started to watch, them again this past weekend and yup, I did not like them then and that feeling still holds true now. Horrible.

Rogue one is pretty much neck and neck with episodes four and five...

 

[maflynn]

My criticisms of the sequels:

The Force Awakens

• The heroine too powerful - Rey a scavenger somehow can talk to Wookies, can talk with any and all droids, knows how to fly, can fix and repair any ship. Can easily light saber duel someone who has trained all of his life. Good story telling shows a hero or heroine unable to attain a goal initially and then fight/struggle and work to overcome. Hard to show someone improving when they’re already great at nearly everything
• A blatant copy of the New Hope
• Capt. Phasma under-used
• Lack of context regarding “The Resistance” the republic and the New Order

The Last Jedi

• Slow moving bombers – why??? Makes no sense
• Poe can disable a dreadnought ship’s defenses single handed? Why have only a handful of defensive guns?
• Why did they not have air cover to protect the fleet as leapt into hostile territory.
• Tracking a ship in hyperspace as a major theme.
• Size of the New Order – their base planet is destroyed now they have a huge fleet?
• Why shoot the base first (which isn’t moving) when you can shoot the transport ship and then the base
• Why have a movie that is a chase scene.
• Why didn’t the First order send a couple of ships in front of the resistance via hyperspace and then just shoot them as they travelled to the secret base
• Why did Holdo keep secret the fact they’re running to a secret base.
• The whole Rey parent theme
• Rose saving Finn because Love will win.
• Killing Supreme Leader
• General Hux menace was replaced with slapstick and bungling.
• The whole casino side quest
• Finn being a coward, i.e., tried to run away.
• Made Luke out to be whiney and weak
• Kylo Ren saying to Luke saving his soul – there are no souls in star wars
• Princess Lei’s Mary Poppin’s scene
• Social commentary regarding money
• Capt. Phasma not used

The Rise of Skywalker

• Rose was kicked to the curb – she could have been a great character in the movie.
• One word – space horses. That whole scene with space horses running on the deck of the space ship was stupid
• The first order/final order can raise up armies at will. Now they have enough people to pilot a thousand ships?
• Trying to fix the story line that the Last Jedi messed up
• Supreme Leader was a vat grown clown for Palpatine?
• Finn is suddenly force sensitive
• Rey mistakenly shoots lightening?
• Lightspeed Skipping, ruins the continuity for the New Hope. How are the tie fighters able to follow/track the Millennium falcon “skip jumping” when in the prior movie there needed to be special equipment and some sort of super computer.
• Missed opportunities with Exegol, more could have been done
• It would have been more believable to have the Supreme Leader survive the bisecting then Palpatine still alive. Hell Darth Maul survived it. While I loved Palpatine in the movie, I think it was a mistake to trot him out, but they had no other villains since they killed off Supreme Leader

My greatest complaints lie in the last jedi, and I did enjoy Episode 7, but the hot stinking mess that Episode 8 was horrible. I could probably go on complaining about episode 8 but you got my point.

 

[Herdfan]

Do you mean the prequals? Anakin isn't in the sequels.

I did.

 

[Herdfan]

The Last Jedi

• The whole casino side quest

That whole thing was a waste of a viewers time. It could have been completely left out of the movie and no one would have noticed.

 

[maflynn]

That whole thing was a waste of a viewers time. It could have been completely left out of the movie and no one would have noticed.

Maybe they got lazy and thought anything with the name star wars would be a mega hit. The entire movie division of Lucasfilm/disney is a complete cluster duck. They can't even get a Star Wars movie made, they announce stuff and then reschedule or cancel it outright

 

[Huntn]

My criticisms of the sequels:

The Force Awakens

• The heroine too powerful - Rey a scavenger somehow can talk to Wookies, can talk with any and all droids, knows how to fly, can fix and repair any ship. Can easily light saber duel someone who has trained all of his life. Good story telling shows a hero or heroine unable to attain a goal initially and then fight/struggle and work to overcome. Hard to show someone improving when they’re already great at nearly everything
• A blatant copy of the New Hope
• Capt. Phasma under-used
• Lack of context regarding “The Resistance” the republic and the New Order

The Last Jedi

• Slow moving bombers – why??? Makes no sense
• Poe can disable a dreadnought ship’s defenses single handed? Why have only a handful of defensive guns?
• Why did they not have air cover to protect the fleet as leapt into hostile territory.
• Tracking a ship in hyperspace as a major theme.
• Size of the New Order – their base planet is destroyed now they have a huge fleet?
• Why shoot the base first (which isn’t moving) when you can shoot the transport ship and then the base
• Why have a movie that is a chase scene.
• Why didn’t the First order send a couple of ships in front of the resistance via hyperspace and then just shoot them as they travelled to the secret base
• Why did Holdo keep secret the fact they’re running to a secret base.
• The whole Rey parent theme
• Rose saving Finn because Love will win.
• Killing Supreme Leader
• General Hux menace was replaced with slapstick and bungling.
• The whole casino side quest
• Finn being a coward, i.e., tried to run away.
• Made Luke out to be whiney and weak
• Kylo Ren saying to Luke saving his soul – there are no souls in star wars
• Princess Lei’s Mary Poppin’s scene
• Social commentary regarding money
• Capt. Phasma not used

The Rise of Skywalker

• Rose was kicked to the curb – she could have been a great character in the movie.
• One word – space horses. That whole scene with space horses running on the deck of the space ship was stupid
• The first order/final order can raise up armies at will. Now they have enough people to pilot a thousand ships?
• Trying to fix the story line that the Last Jedi messed up
• Supreme Leader was a vat grown clown for Palpatine?
• Finn is suddenly force sensitive
• Rey mistakenly shoots lightening?
• Lightspeed Skipping, ruins the continuity for the New Hope. How are the tie fighters able to follow/track the Millennium falcon “skip jumping” when in the prior movie there needed to be special equipment and some sort of super computer.
• Missed opportunities with Exegol, more could have been done
• It would have been more believable to have the Supreme Leader survive the bisecting then Palpatine still alive. Hell Darth Maul survived it. While I loved Palpatine in the movie, I think it was a mistake to trot him out, but they had no other villains since they killed off Supreme Leader

My greatest complaints lie in the last jedi, and I did enjoy Episode 7, but the hot stinking mess that Episode 8 was horrible. I could probably go on complaining about episode 8 but you got my point.

So would you describe 7,8,9 as worthy?

 

[rhett7660]

My criticisms of the sequels:

The Force Awakens

• The heroine too powerful - Rey a scavenger somehow can talk to Wookies, can talk with any and all droids, knows how to fly, can fix and repair any ship. Can easily light saber duel someone who has trained all of his life. Good story telling shows a hero or heroine unable to attain a goal initially and then fight/struggle and work to overcome. Hard to show someone improving when they’re already great at nearly everything
• A blatant copy of the New Hope
• Capt. Phasma under-used
• Lack of context regarding “The Resistance” the republic and the New Order

The Last Jedi

• Slow moving bombers – why??? Makes no sense
• Poe can disable a dreadnought ship’s defenses single handed? Why have only a handful of defensive guns?
• Why did they not have air cover to protect the fleet as leapt into hostile territory.
• Tracking a ship in hyperspace as a major theme.
• Size of the New Order – their base planet is destroyed now they have a huge fleet?
• Why shoot the base first (which isn’t moving) when you can shoot the transport ship and then the base
• Why have a movie that is a chase scene.
• Why didn’t the First order send a couple of ships in front of the resistance via hyperspace and then just shoot them as they travelled to the secret base
• Why did Holdo keep secret the fact they’re running to a secret base.
• The whole Rey parent theme
• Rose saving Finn because Love will win.
• Killing Supreme Leader
• General Hux menace was replaced with slapstick and bungling.
• The whole casino side quest
• Finn being a coward, i.e., tried to run away.
• Made Luke out to be whiney and weak
• Kylo Ren saying to Luke saving his soul – there are no souls in star wars
• Princess Lei’s Mary Poppin’s scene
• Social commentary regarding money
• Capt. Phasma not used

The Rise of Skywalker

• Rose was kicked to the curb – she could have been a great character in the movie.
• One word – space horses. That whole scene with space horses running on the deck of the space ship was stupid
• The first order/final order can raise up armies at will. Now they have enough people to pilot a thousand ships?
• Trying to fix the story line that the Last Jedi messed up
• Supreme Leader was a vat grown clown for Palpatine?
• Finn is suddenly force sensitive
• Rey mistakenly shoots lightening?
• Lightspeed Skipping, ruins the continuity for the New Hope. How are the tie fighters able to follow/track the Millennium falcon “skip jumping” when in the prior movie there needed to be special equipment and some sort of super computer.
• Missed opportunities with Exegol, more could have been done
• It would have been more believable to have the Supreme Leader survive the bisecting then Palpatine still alive. Hell Darth Maul survived it. While I loved Palpatine in the movie, I think it was a mistake to trot him out, but they had no other villains since they killed off Supreme Leader

My greatest complaints lie in the last jedi, and I did enjoy Episode 7, but the hot stinking mess that Episode 8 was horrible. I could probably go on complaining about episode 8 but you got my point.

This is a nice list and like you I am sure I can find more... I dislike the sequels immensely. They almost ruined my love for the franchise.

Rogue One and then Mando brought it back for me, followed by Andor.