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Huntn

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
May 5, 2008
24,025
27,105
The Misty Mountains
Same, after watching the Last Jedi, I nearly walked away from the franchise.
This situation with large media corporations ruining beloved franchises, you can chalk it up to incompetence, lazyness, over reliance on past successes, or it’s like a family member who decides to steal from the family calculating how far they can go before they are tossed out. :oops:
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
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This situation with large media corporations ruining beloved franchises,
I think you're 100% spot on. This was George Lucas' baby, he cared for it, he nurtured it, he went out of his way to ensure that it was exactly what he wanted. Sometimes he over did it, but you cannot condemn him of just trying to phone it in.

Disney had no such love, they saw a beloved franchise with a dedicated fanbase and they saw dollar signs. They themselves phoned it in. Solo: A Star Wars Story is testament to that mentality. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and I will say Rogue One is one of the best Star Wars movies out there.

Dave Filoni who does many of the Star wars TV stuff loves Star Wars and the quality of his work shows such care. My criticism are mostly based on the movie division. I don't even think they have a Star Wars movie scheduled or planned at this stage
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,050
56,085
Behind the Lens, UK
I think you're 100% spot on. This was George Lucas' baby, he cared for it, he nurtured it, he went out of his way to ensure that it was exactly what he wanted. Sometimes he over did it, but you cannot condemn him of just trying to phone it in.

Disney had no such love, they saw a beloved franchise with a dedicated fanbase and they saw dollar signs. They themselves phoned it in. Solo: A Star Wars Story is testament to that mentality. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and I will say Rogue One is one of the best Star Wars movies out there.

Dave Filoni who does many of the Star wars TV stuff loves Star Wars and the quality of his work shows such care. My criticism are mostly based on the movie division. I don't even think they have a Star Wars movie scheduled or planned at this stage
And why aren’t they working on movies? Because they know that Star Wars series are better ROI on Disney+
Keeps people subscribing for longer.
 
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Obi Wan Kenobi

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2011
509
345
London, UK
I don't know if I mentioned this, or someone mentioned it, but I came across some quotes or articles from George Lucas that he said that he made Star Wars for kids, and if you take that in mind with regards to the original trilogy and more so, for the prequals, that makes a ton of sense. For instance through my 18 year old eyes, (my age when Return of the Jedi), the Ewoks were stupid, but kids at ate that up

16 years had passed when the Phantom Menace was released and so the adult star wars fans were expecting adult type content, but instead got another youth focused story, i.e., Anakin as a child, Jar Jar Binks, etc.

I stumbled upon an article where the author loved the prequals, why? Because he was a kid and ate that up, those kids are now adults and they all look fondly at the prequals, just as us older folks look fondly on the original trilogy. This is also why the prequals where largely panned - adult fans had a different expectation then what was made.

With that said, my absolute favorite star wars movie was Revenge of the Sith. I know I posted that before, and I know the dialog is at times, wooden at best, but its my favorite.

The trouble with George Lucas quotations about Star Wars, is he is not consistent.

The first film ANH, was not originally intended by him to be a kids movie. It's a re-working of Akira Kurosawa's film Hidden Fortress, but set in a futuristic setting. The parallels between jedi and samurai are not coincidences.

As the film progressed, it turned into a kids movie, which is something he wasn't happy about at the time. It was however an unexpected success. That success, though wasn't all down to him.

He showed his final draft of the movie (without special effects) to his film-making friends, including Brian de Palma, Spielberg and others. They were friends more than rivals in those days. They were mostly polite about it, but after they went for dinner afterwards, Brian de Palma really laid into it and dissected all the things wrong with it, inspired by de Palma's frankness, the others joined in. Lucas was hurt by what de Palma said, but went along with almost all of his suggestions, as well as some of the others. What we ended up with was a movie that was a product of the minds of (what would become) the greatest directors of cinema of the 80s, 90s and beyond.

When a sequel was agreed to, they were intended to be the adventures of Luke Skywalker. His contemporaneous interviews repeatedly said this.

ESB was not the movie he intended it to be. When he saw what Kershner had created he was very unhappy. He thought it too ponderous and was too much of a romance. He had expected an action movie with higher energy levels, more in keeping with the old Buck Rogers / Flash Gordon serials he was inspired by. Its success was a surprise to him again.

He took more control over Return of the Jedi and we have there what he intended at the time.

Lucas then moved on with his life and other projects. He eventually agreed to let writers do novels about the Star Wars universe, and the initial writers were given a time period they could write in. They could use the original characters, but weren't allowed to kill them off or change them.

When Zahn's novels proved very successful (Heir to Empire, et seq) and it could be seen there was a big market out there, he decided to do some more movies, and studios were keen to invest.

The pre-quel trilogy were originally intended by him to be about Obi-Wan Kenobi, rather than Anakin Skywalker, but by the time they'd filmed a lot of it, the story wasn't working and they re-wrote what was left to be more about Anakin. This is why McGregor gets top-billing in each of the prequels, even though he isn't the main character any more.

In interviews after this re-write, Lucas starts to claim it was always his intention to make it all about Anakin, and the his turn to Vader.

From this period onwards, older interviews that are used in Star Wars specials are edited to remove anything inconsistent with this new claim.

All of which is a long (and probably too detailed) way of saying Lucas has said all sorts of different things at different times about these movies.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
The trouble with George Lucas quotations about Star Wars, is he is not consistent.
Oh to be sure, whether we're talking about Han shot first, or Luke/Lei's kiss. There's a measure of revisionist, and retconning to the franchise.

Here's my take, he had a somewhat nebulous idea for a movie, he added/removed stuff and it was not intended to be a franchise. Once the studio decided that they wanted to keep making boatloads of money, the franchise was green lit. Just consider Darth Vader, in A New Hope, you can easily make the case that Darth Vader was his full name, not title and sith pseudonym. The universe, characters and plots evolved and tightened up as the movies were made and to an extent, comic books, and books.
 

ucfgrad93

macrumors Core
Aug 17, 2007
19,579
10,875
Colorado
This is a nice list and like you I am sure I can find more... I dislike the sequels immensely. They almost ruined my love for the franchise.

Rogue One and then Mando brought it back for me, followed by Andor.

They were not good. My least favorite of the movies.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
So it seems the new season of the Mandalorian's ratings have been lack luster. Words like ratings crash are being bantered about.

I saw one article (I can't find it now) and it was basically stating that baby yoda arc really needs to be wrapped up I don't have any suggestions or thoughts.
 

Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
7,267
8,809
So it seems the new season of the Mandalorian's ratings have been lack luster. Words like ratings crash are being bantered about.

I saw one article (I can't find it now) and it was basically stating that baby yoda arc really needs to be wrapped up I don't have any suggestions or thoughts.

There's a rumor that Katie Sackoff will take over as the lead. After all, the show is called "THE Mandalorian." It doesn't specify which. Plus, Pascal's availability could be an issue.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
There's a rumor that Katie Sackoff will take over as the lead. After all, the show is called "THE Mandalorian." It doesn't specify which. Plus, Pascal's availability could be an issue.
I wonder if people are just baby-Yoda'd out at this point

I don't know, but it did worse then the under performing Boba Fett - hopefully this is a temporary setback and the series will find it's footing
 
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Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
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I wonder if people are just baby-Yoda'd out at this point

I don't know, but it did worse then the under performing Boba Fett - hopefully this is a temporary setback and the series will find it's footing

The problem is, he sort of adopted Grogu. It's not like he can just dump him off on someone and continue the show. He'd look like a jerk. By switching to Sackoff, they could take care of two problems at once. Plus, Katie's backstory seems more interesting to me.
 
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Silencio

macrumors 68040
Jul 18, 2002
3,533
1,665
NYC
Maybe people got put off by the mediocrity of The Book of Boba Fett and Obi-Wan and haven't come back yet, much like people started tuning out the newer MCU series (like I did). A pity, because Andor was very good and provided a much needed different perspective into the overall Star Wars story.

Agreed that the Grogu story is running out of impetus. No way is he going to start wearing a little beskar helmet and start saying "The way, this is", right? The whole story of the Mandalorians taking back their home planet could still be a good one, regardless.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Maybe people got put off by the mediocrity of The Book of Boba Fett and Obi-Wan
Obi-Wan started slow, but I felt the last two (three?) episodes were excellent.

One of my criticisms of the sequals, is that the protagonist is too powerful at the beginning of the story. In this case Rey. What is there for her to over-come? An uneducated scavenger who can speak to droids, and wookies. Can fly space craft. Can beat Kylo Ren in a light saber duel even though she's never even held one and he spent his entire life training.

With Obi-Wan, we have a broken man, who's connection to the force has been severed (due to PTSD/guilt?) So its a great story from that perspective of someone over coming so much.
 

Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
7,267
8,809
Obi-Wan started slow, but I felt the last two (three?) episodes were excellent.

One of my criticisms of the sequals, is that the protagonist is too powerful at the beginning of the story. In this case Rey. What is there for her to over-come? An uneducated scavenger who can speak to droids, and wookies. Can fly space craft. Can beat Kylo Ren in a light saber duel even though she's never even held one and he spent his entire life training.

With Obi-Wan, we have a broken man, who's connection to the force has been severed (due to PTSD/guilt?) So its a great story from that perspective of someone over coming so much.

The problem with The Mandalorian is, I'm not sure what the end game is. Right now, he just seems like a dude, wandering around doing...stuff. There's no long journey for him to complete here, just a bunch of short ones. He had Grogu, to deliver him to the Jedi. But then he keeps him as a ward, so now what?
 

skottichan

macrumors 65816
Oct 23, 2007
1,144
1,388
Columbus, OH
he just seems like a dude, wandering around doing...stuff.

Honestly, I feel like this is what it aways should have been. I don't even mind Grogu, but it should have been more Lone Wolf & Cub mixed with Sergio Leone. Bringing in Luke, the Dark Saber, etc just kinda killed its momentum. Din shouldn't be the High Mandalor, ever... He should have gotten the Dark Saber and immediately it should have went to Bo-Katan, like it did when Sabine gave it to her. I'm still not sure why Filoni wrote that whole plot reversal.

I feel it should have stayed aways from the "civilized" parts of the galaxy, have it be more Cobb Vanth and broken Empire, less Jedi.


As to the other stuff, I've really enjoyed it. I honestly feel like Star Wars is better made for long form storytelling and monster-of-the-week. Honestly, after watching the OG trilogy again, they're not really great movies. I mean, I know they helped change Hollywood, but man, the dialogue is cringe, and Luke is, as much as I hate the term a "Mary Su" I mean I get it, so is Rey and Anakin, they're the Chosen One(s). Out of the 12 movies, I think there's like 2-3 genuinely great movies in there. The rest is fluff.
 

Huntn

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
May 5, 2008
24,025
27,105
The Misty Mountains
My criticisms of the sequels:

The Force Awakens
  • The heroine too powerful - Rey a scavenger somehow can talk to Wookies, can talk with any and all droids, knows how to fly, can fix and repair any ship. Can easily light saber duel someone who has trained all of his life. Good story telling shows a hero or heroine unable to attain a goal initially and then fight/struggle and work to overcome. Hard to show someone improving when they’re already great at nearly everything
  • A blatant copy of the New Hope
  • Capt. Phasma under-used
  • Lack of context regarding “The Resistance” the republic and the New Order
The Last Jedi
  • Slow moving bombers – why??? Makes no sense
  • Poe can disable a dreadnought ship’s defenses single handed? Why have only a handful of defensive guns?
  • Why did they not have air cover to protect the fleet as leapt into hostile territory.
  • Tracking a ship in hyperspace as a major theme.
  • Size of the New Order – their base planet is destroyed now they have a huge fleet?
  • Why shoot the base first (which isn’t moving) when you can shoot the transport ship and then the base
  • Why have a movie that is a chase scene.
  • Why didn’t the First order send a couple of ships in front of the resistance via hyperspace and then just shoot them as they travelled to the secret base
  • Why did Holdo keep secret the fact they’re running to a secret base.
  • The whole Rey parent theme
  • Rose saving Finn because Love will win.
  • Killing Supreme Leader
  • General Hux menace was replaced with slapstick and bungling.
  • The whole casino side quest
  • Finn being a coward, i.e., tried to run away.
  • Made Luke out to be whiney and weak
  • Kylo Ren saying to Luke saving his soul – there are no souls in star wars
  • Princess Lei’s Mary Poppin’s scene
  • Social commentary regarding money
  • Capt. Phasma not used
The Rise of Skywalker
  • Rose was kicked to the curb – she could have been a great character in the movie.
  • One word – space horses. That whole scene with space horses running on the deck of the space ship was stupid
  • The first order/final order can raise up armies at will. Now they have enough people to pilot a thousand ships?
  • Trying to fix the story line that the Last Jedi messed up
  • Supreme Leader was a vat grown clown for Palpatine?
  • Finn is suddenly force sensitive
  • Rey mistakenly shoots lightening?
  • Lightspeed Skipping, ruins the continuity for the New Hope. How are the tie fighters able to follow/track the Millennium falcon “skip jumping” when in the prior movie there needed to be special equipment and some sort of super computer.
  • Missed opportunities with Exegol, more could have been done
  • It would have been more believable to have the Supreme Leader survive the bisecting then Palpatine still alive. Hell Darth Maul survived it. While I loved Palpatine in the movie, I think it was a mistake to trot him out, but they had no other villains since they killed off Supreme Leader
My greatest complaints lie in the last jedi, and I did enjoy Episode 7, but the hot stinking mess that Episode 8 was horrible. I could probably go on complaining about episode 8 but you got my point.

A huge YEP:
  • The heroine too powerful - Rey a scavenger somehow can talk to Wookies, can talk with any and all droids, knows how to fly, can fix and repair any ship. Can easily light saber duel someone who has trained all of his life. Good story telling shows a hero or heroine unable to attain a goal initially and then fight/struggle and work to overcome. Hard to show someone improving when they’re already great at nearly everything
I laughed when she kicked the shirt out of Kyle Ren with one hand tied behind her back. Don’t get me wrong, I ❤️ powerful women, but this was too much, Hollywood/Abrams story telling run amuck. They reall don’t respect the audience, or think we are a bunch of Star Wars suckers who will lap up anything they offer. 😑
 

rhett7660

macrumors G5
Jan 9, 2008
14,384
4,507
Sunny, Southern California
Honestly, I feel like this is what it aways should have been. I don't even mind Grogu, but it should have been more Lone Wolf & Cub mixed with Sergio Leone. Bringing in Luke, the Dark Saber, etc just kinda killed its momentum. Din shouldn't be the High Mandalor, ever... He should have gotten the Dark Saber and immediately it should have went to Bo-Katan, like it did when Sabine gave it to her. I'm still not sure why Filoni wrote that whole plot reversal.

I feel it should have stayed aways from the "civilized" parts of the galaxy, have it be more Cobb Vanth and broken Empire, less Jedi.


As to the other stuff, I've really enjoyed it. I honestly feel like Star Wars is better made for long form storytelling and monster-of-the-week. Honestly, after watching the OG trilogy again, they're not really great movies. I mean, I know they helped change Hollywood, but man, the dialogue is cringe, and Luke is, as much as I hate the term a "Mary Su" I mean I get it, so is Rey and Anakin, they're the Chosen One(s). Out of the 12 movies, I think there's like 2-3 genuinely great movies in there. The rest is fluff.

I know I was expecting it to be a Lone Wolf and Cub style series... which it has been, sort of... maybe 50% or so of the time.

I don't think you will hear anyone say they are great movies... Spectacular seems to be more fitting! :)

The original three are good movies for what they are. I find Rogue One to be my favorite, depending on my mood, and A New Hope to also be my favorite, again depending on my mood. Empire is good, and Return is ok--> good. The others... UGH. I do like some scenes from the others, but man... they are tough.
 

Herdfan

macrumors 65816
Apr 11, 2011
1,375
7,939
Agreed that the Grogu story is running out of impetus. No way is he going to start wearing a little beskar helmet and start saying "The way, this is", right? The whole story of the Mandalorians taking back their home planet could still be a good one, regardless.

Is it bad that I was thinking he was going to fall over forward when she put the breast plate on him? :eek:
 
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