Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
That was in response to the topic creator.


Discontinuing the Mac Pro is basically audio and video professionals to switch over to PCs. Apple doesnt want that.
 
There's only fringe cases that demand 6, 8 or 12 cores and therefore, I see less demand for Mac Pro's for now. At least until software takes another quantum leap in saturating existing hardware.

Composers who use large orchestral sample libraries habitually bring a maxed out MacPro to its knees without much effort. There is quite a bit of evidence out there indicating that similarly spec'd Win7 machines handle this much better and at lower latencies to boot.

The issue could be with OSX, although it might just as well be that apps are primarily developed for Windows and ported to OSX as an afterthought.

Demand for a MacPro is declining not just because more professionals can make do with an iMac, but because people like me are beginning to realize that a bespoke Win7 workstation might just be a better fit for the majority of their software.

So I reckon the future of the MacPro very much depends on how Apple deals with pro-app developers. If they can convince them to rewrite their apps for OSX in a way that takes full advantage of the hardware, the MacPro will remain a solid investment for the professionals.

But if we can have better performance at 70% of the cost, why should we buy a MacPro?

Discontinuing the Mac Pro is basically audio and video professionals to switch over to PCs. Apple doesnt want that.

They would not want that, but they would not be overly concerned either. The pro market is the smallest segment with the highest demands. Not a very interesting prospect when you sell 42 million iPhones in three months and have iPads on back order until the next end of the world.
 
they may go with a higher end mac pro and drop the lesser ones. My reasoning is simple...

A mac mini server geekbenches at 9400 cost 1k

a 2010 quad geekbenches at 9800 cost 2.5k


the power used is triple for the mac pro.

so a guy that encodes with handbrake for a living is going to be tempted to switch. there are quite a few out there.

imac will grab some other low end users, but dual cpus 12 core or even 16 core will be needed. 96gb ram setups etc. so dropping the single cpu and making a mac pro cost a lot more as a starter may be the move for apple
 
Composers who use large orchestral sample libraries habitually bring a maxed out MacPro to its knees without much effort. There is quite a bit of evidence out there indicating that similarly spec'd Win7 machines handle this much better and at lower latencies to boot.

The issue could be with OSX, although it might just as well be that apps are primarily developed for Windows and ported to OSX as an afterthought.

Demand for a MacPro is declining not just because more professionals can make do with an iMac, but because people like me are beginning to realize that a bespoke Win7 workstation might just be a better fit for the majority of their software.

Interesting. Seems like a fault in the software to me. CoreAudio is pretty unique, as far as an audio API for pros, not much like it exists on Windows. The latencies are much lower than what is available on Windows.

OS X has always had really good audio playback support for pros actually. Shame that the software isn't delivering audio the CoreAudio fast enough.
 
They would not want that, but they would not be overly concerned either. The pro market is the smallest segment with the highest demands. Not a very interesting prospect when you sell 42 million iPhones in three months and have iPads on back order until the next end of the world.
And is that market getting bigger or smaller? I'd wager that computers will be more important in the future than they are now. If professionals dont use macs, they dont see the appeal of syncing mobile devices with their workstations.
 
Interesting. Seems like a fault in the software to me. CoreAudio is pretty unique, as far as an audio API for pros, not much like it exists on Windows. The latencies are much lower than what is available on Windows.

OS X has always had really good audio playback support for pros actually. Shame that the software isn't delivering audio the CoreAudio fast enough.

You're telling me.

Its heartbreaking. I love Apple. Have been with them since 1985. It is a point of shame for me to have to have a PC Slave that pipes back into the MACpro so I can do my job properly...it's embarrassing.

best,
SvK
 
Like I said, the focus of Apple has shifted to the iPhone, iPad, etc (the mobility market). This is where Apple sees the future.

The Mac Pro makes up probably less than 1/1000 of all Apple sales. It is becoming less than a side project for Apple, I have never even seen a Mac Pro sold at an Apple Store. Nobody seems interested.

10 years ago, the desktop tower was seen as an important piece of equipment that every home, business, and individual should have...now everything that could be accomplished on the desktop can be done on one of these i7 or quad-core portables, or even an iPad.

I see Apple maybe giving the Mac Pro one or two more updates and then dropping the line, just like they did with the XServe. Even Steve said they weren't selling well, and it was just a small fractional portion of all Apple sales. The Mac Pro has taken a backstage position in the mobile-based lineup of iPhones, iPads and notebooks that Apple is pushing out like candy for all the consumers to gobble up.
 
The Mac Pro makes up probably less than 1/1000 of all Apple sales. It is becoming less than a side project for Apple, I have never even seen a Mac Pro sold at an Apple Store. Nobody seems interested.

Apple keeps around tons of products for specific groups. Even the Macbook wasn't axed completely, it's still around specifically for education.

As long as it's profitable, Apple will keep it. There is no sign that the Mac Pro is not profitable.

And if Apple drops the Mac Pro, what will they sell for OS X Server? Especially given that OS X Server is important for iOS and Mac deployments.

10 years ago, the desktop tower was seen as an important piece of equipment that every home, business, and individual should have...now everything that could be accomplished on the desktop can be done on one of these i7 or quad-core portables, or even an iPad.

I don't think this was ever true on the Mac side. 10 years ago? 2001. The iMac was dominating. 1998 the iMac was the best selling Mac Apple had. Before that, the 5X00 and Performa lines of all in ones were very popular, along with non tower desktops. Before that, the Mac SE and Mac Classic were king.

When is this Mac tower heyday you're speaking of?

I see Apple maybe giving the Mac Pro one or two more updates and then dropping the line, just like they did with the XServe. Even Steve said they weren't selling well, and it was just a small fractional portion of all Apple sales. The Mac Pro has taken a backstage position in the mobile-based lineup of iPhones, iPads and notebooks that Apple is pushing out like candy for all the consumers to gobble up.

Again, I don't follow the logic here. Products are cut on profit, not volume.

This is the BMW argument again. Should BMW cut it's least selling cars? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the Mac Pro has the highest margins out of any Macs.

If you look at it by volume, sure, the Mac Pro is not that much. By profit? The Mac Pro is probably a huge chunk of the Mac profits.

Again, look at profit share. Not volume share. One Mac Pro is 10 iMacs in profit (roughly).
 
You just need to wait till Sandy Bridge is available in the Xeon. It will update then. If Intel releases new "suitable" Xeons and the Mac Pro does not get updated, then you worry. Pointless to start all these sad bastard threads when the parts aint out yet. And yes everything is getting closer and closer to Mac Pro proc speeds. It is not the end of the world as the Pro's will get SB single thread execution perks and even more cores than the consumer models when they release.
 
Apple keeps around tons of products for specific groups. Even the Macbook wasn't axed completely, it's still around specifically for education.

MacBooks still sell well, I was at an Apple Store two weeks ago and there was a group of people interested in buying them at the store. They are (were) the low-cost entry-level Mac laptop, and have always been popular, and cheap to produce for Apple. Apple makes high margins off the white MacBooks.

And if Apple drops the Mac Pro, what will they sell for OS X Server?

You see they axed the XServe. Now they sell a Mac Pro called "server" that is basically just a Mac Pro with the server install. And now there is a quad-core Mac Mini server. Steve even made mention that OS X Server is on its last legs with Lion, and will eventually come as a part of the client OS. Apple is going minituized and mobile with their computers, the Mac Pro is simply large and bulky in their lineup, and the new Thunderbolt Macs are capable of expansion, have quad-core chips, and much higher RAM capacities than we have seen in the past (MacBook Pro and iMac can handle 16GB of RAM). It won't be too long until we see 16-core iMacs that can handle 96GB of RAM, and the Mac Pro will be on an equivalent level with the iMac.

I don't think this was ever true on the Mac side. 10 years ago? 2001. The iMac was dominating. 1998 the iMac was the best selling Mac Apple had. Before that, the 5X00 and Performa lines of all in ones were very popular, along with non tower desktops. Before that, the Mac SE and Mac Classic were king. When is this Mac tower heyday you're speaking of?

On the PC side, towers were dominating (think HP, Compaq, etc)....also the PowerMacs were very popular (much more than the Mac Pros are today). Basically my point was that prior to the iMac, a CPU-box desktop computer was seen as the commonplace home and business machine if you wanted a fast computer to surf the Internet and manage your files.

Again, I don't follow the logic here. Products are cut on profit, not volume.

Exactly, and the Mac Pro is not a profit-windfall for Apple like iPhone and iPad. Apple sells the 32GB iPhone for $799, and it costs them about $320 to produce, that means they are making more than twice their cost-to-produce on each sale. Now multiply that by the 40 million or so iPhones they sold last quarter...you get my point? The Mac Pro is very expensive for Apple to produce (mainly the parts -- processor, graphics card, main board, etc), and I can guarantee you that Apple does not make a 200% profit on each Mac Pro sale. And again, the Mac Pro makes up less than 0.01% of all of Apple's sales, and likely less than one out of every two hundred Macs sold. It is extremely small, the market, and the amount they sell. The profits on Mac Pro are far from huge. This alone was the reason they axed XServe, not because they had problems with the platform, but simply because they weren't selling. iPhone, iPad, and the MacBook Pros (and Airs) are the staple sellers for Apple right now, and this is where their focus is.

This is the BMW argument again. Should BMW cut it's least selling cars? It doesn't make sense. Especially given that the Mac Pro has the highest margins out of any Macs.

This is Apple we are talking about, not a car company. All of BMW caters to is high-dollar spenders and the elite that can afford them. You see, Apple is targeting the average consumer with the iPhone and the iPad. They are hitting a market (and doing extremely well), where Apple used to be focused on this upper-eschelon. They are producing a line of products with mass appeal and they are giving the company windfall profits. You did see that iPhone and iPad made up over 60% of all revenue for the last quarter for Apple? And Mac --- well the Macs only made up 18%, and over 60% of those were MacBook Pros. So that leaves somewhere around 7-8% being desktops...now how much of this is Mac Pro sales? One out of a hundred? The numbers don't lie...there just isn't much money for Apple in the Mac Pro these days. Yes, as of now they still offer them, but the costs of keeping the production lines going, and all the signs from Apple's moves regarding the Pro market lately (Think XServe, OS X Server, FinalCut X) leave me to think that the Mac Pro does not have much time left before it is considered EOL.

If you look at it by volume, sure, the Mac Pro is not that much. By profit? The Mac Pro is probably a huge chunk of the Mac profits.

Again, look at profit share. Not volume share. One Mac Pro is 10 iMacs in profit (roughly).

Wrong. Look at the numbers. 40 million iPhone and 20 million iPads at 200% profit per sale? And Mac Pro, maybe 75,000 units at 30% profit per sale. Very expensive to produce...requires separate fabrication facilities, special Intel processors, special custom-made boards and parts. It is not windfall profit for Apple by ANY means!
 
Last edited:
On the PC side, towers were dominating (think HP, Compaq, etc)....also the PowerMacs were very popular (much more than the Mac Pros are today). Basically my point was that prior to the iMac, a CPU-box desktop computer was seen as the commonplace home and business machine if you wanted a fast computer to surf the Internet and manage your files.

But the Power Macs weren't all towers. Only the 8000 and 9000 lines, which were not popular with consumers.

The 5000 series was an all in one. The 7000 series was a flat desktop. Only one of the 6000 series shipped in a tower design. The Performa series (which was intended for consumers) was almost all All In Ones based off the 5000 line at the time, with a higher end consumer tower based on the 6500 at only one point.

The fact that Apple during that entire period only had one tower aimed towards consumers for about a year is telling.

Exactly, and the Mac Pro is not a profit-windfall for Apple like iPhone and iPad. Apple sells the 32GB iPhone for $799, and it costs them about $320 to produce, that means they are making more than twice their cost-to-produce on each sale. Now multiply that by the 40 million or so iPhones they sold last quarter...you get my point? The Mac Pro is very expensive for Apple to produce (mainly the parts -- processor, graphics card, main board, etc), and I can guarantee you that Apple does not make a 200% profit on each Mac Pro sale. And again, the Mac Pro makes up less than 0.01% of all of Apple's sales, and likely less than one out of every two hundred Macs sold. It is extremely small, the market, and the amount they sell. The profits on Mac Pro are far from huge. This alone was the reason they axed XServe, not because they had problems with the platform, but simply because they weren't selling. iPhone, iPad, and the MacBook Pros (and Airs) are the staple sellers for Apple right now, and this is where their focus is.

Profit windfall? That's trying to spin things.

The Mac Pro has a very large margin on it. It's not unreasonable for it to be 5%-10% of the profit of the Mac division, despite it probably representing less sales.

I hate to overuse the car analogy, but again, it's like a car companies high end car. They don't sell many, but when they do, the margin is so high it's like selling 10 of the normal cars.

This is Apple we are talking about, not a car company. All of BMW caters to is high-dollar spenders and the elite that can afford them. You see, Apple is targeting the average consumer with the iPhone and the iPad.

You realize Apple has compared themselves to BMW previously, right?

Apple by their own admission compares themselves to BMW. They have repeatedly stated that they do not care about volume as much as profits on the Mac. And the Mac Pro fits that exactly.

Again, volume does not matter as long as the product is profitable. You can talk circles around that all you want, but as long as a product is profitable, Apple has no reason to cut it.

Yes, as of now they still offer them, but the costs of keeping the production lines going, and all the signs from Apple's moves regarding the Pro market lately (Think XServe, OS X Server, FinalCut X) leave me to think that the Mac Pro does not have much time left before it is considered EOL.

You mentioned that Apple said they are winding down OS X Server. Please provide a link to that, because that's entirely not what I've heard.

If Apple was winding down Final Cut Pro X why did they just re-write it? They already have a consumer editing product...

Wrong. Look at the numbers. 40 million iPhone and 20 million iPads at 200% profit per sale? And Mac Pro, maybe 75,000 units at 30% profit per sale.

Really? You're spinning these numbers and I think you know it....

30% profit on a $5000 machine is going to be a lot more than %50 profit (let's be reasonable here) on a $600 phone.

This is basic 3rd grade math, and the magic of percentages.

Very expensive to produce...requires separate fabrication facilities, special Intel processors, special custom-made boards and parts. It is not windfall profit for Apple by ANY means!

Huh? Are you sure you know what goes into a Mac Pro?

Standard Intel Xeon processors, standard boards, standard RAM, standard power supply, standard optical drives, standard hard drives... The entire thing is designed here in Portland at Intel. Apple doesn't even do the design of the internal components.

And as far as case design, it's the same case they've been using for the past 8 years. I mean, the case is expensive to produce, but they easily go far past the case production costs in margins.

This is a joke, right?

The Mac Pro has a reputation (especially in these forums) of being a very high margin machine.
 
Steve Jobs's mission is to kill the PC.
How does the MAcPro fit in with that vision?
It doesn't.

Ummm..... can you point to a place were he said this?
The closest I can recall is All Things D Interview.
In that he likened PC to the early automobile industry.
Saying that early auto's were all trucks as people moved in to the cities and suburbs the industry moved to cars. The same transition will happen to Computers.

He never said the trucks would go away, indeed if you look at who makes trucks it's the higher end car makers.

So if that does follow through then it'll be Apple, HP and Sony who all still make computing trucks and computing cars and computing sports cars.

HP seem to be getting there pieces together webOS for cars, their own unix for trucks.

The MacPro is their(Apple's) base trucking platform much like you go to Mercedes Benz for a truck drive train that could then be a bus or truck. That's to me how the MacPro fits especially if they move to a rack mount. A truck(workstation) used be one driver for heavy lifting or a Bus (server).
Mac Mini is a small truck/mini bus platform. iMac is the family station wagon.
 
To me the significant changes are:

- 4 Hyperthreaded cores available on laptops, mini's and iMacs means that the multi-threaded performance of these consumer computers now exceeds the capability of all but the most specialized software

- Thunderbolt delivers high-speed mass storage expansion to a computer of any form factor... a feature that was previously only available in the Mac Pro.

Both of these developments in the latest updates to Apples consumer computers are relegating the need for a Mac Pro to fringe workloads.
This is how I see it as well.

Again, I'm not seeing this change in computing. The consumer machines and the pro machines have always had this overlap for the last two decades. Why are we freaking out about it now?

The Mac Pro is designed for workloads where improvement can always be had. By definition, quad core consumer machines don't change this.
It will come down to cost/benefit for each user.

Consider SP users that only need 4 cores....

In the past, even when Apple's other products closed the gap in terms of core counts (when consumer parts hit 4 cores on a single die), they still fell far short in areas such as graphics and storage (i.e. consumer ports such as USB and FW couldn't cut it, nor could embedded GPU's).

But with the introduction of TB, this has closed this gap as well, particularly with storage (I do still see limits with graphics in TB's current revision, but that can be dealt with, such as a single graphics slot in an iMac).

Now when users see this and the cost difference between these systems, they may seriously reconsider their position on a MP, particularly in our current economy.

So the days of the MP being the "right" machine for users that only need 4 cores is likely to decline as a result. I'm not saying I expect the sales decline to happen all at once, but over say a couple of releases. At which point, Apple will have to make some decisions.

They've a few options, such as either EOL the MP entirely in favor of say an iMac + TB + user upgradeable GPU, or change the MP as we know it into a SP only incarnation of some sort (no more DP models).

You may not see this as a drastic change, but users that actually need more than 8 cores would (i.e. animators and any scientists that have heavily threaded OS X applications).

The cost of building the Mac Pros doesn't matter because they make a profit on them. That makes about as much sense as saying BMW is about to leave the car market because BMW cars are very expensive to make.
Of course it matters, as that's what they base their MSRP's on. So if the total cost per unit suddenly jumps a $1k, then that could exceed the point where users are either willing or able to buy. Profit could disappear, as it's based on a minimum number of units sold (i.e. expect n units sold, and get say 70% of that figure could not just reduce the margin, but actually end up a loss).

More importantly IMO however, is declining sales that would result from any notable increase in MSRP, even if it's technically still making a profit (doesn't need to be as drastic as $1k, but it will still end up in a reduced margin). When this happens enough times over future models, that profit will eventually reduce to the point Apple will decide "enough".

I'm not sure you've fully accounted for this issue on future MP sales.

2 years ago, there was a huge benefit moving from a MacBook Pro to a Mac Pro for Photoshop. Not any more.
This is how I see it as well. Not to say they're equal, but the gap has been closed quite a bit.

Then consider the remaining issues could be addressed over the next couple of years, it's possible the MP could be EOL'ed.

I don't know if 6, 8, or 12 cores are fringe cases. You're talking about science, video editing, pro audio, and development, which already were the primary market for pro users.
Most of the threaded professional software out there is from the creative area (video/animation/audio).

In terms of science, what I've seen is primarily limited to chemistry and bioinformatics. A few astronomers use OS X on their laptops (also dual boot Windows), but the grunt work is done on Linux boxes. Engineering has it's subsections of suites as well, but all in all, it's not much when I think of the entire market.

As per development, since OS X isn't the biggest part of the OS market, I don't see it as accounting for a drastic number of MP sales either.

Now when I think of the entire professional market, the number of threaded applications is actually small. So "fringe" makes sense as a general rule.

As per the MP specifically, that will depend on exactly what application/s within a suite every user uses, and how often. We don't have detailed information, but Photoshop users are a big chunk of MP buyers from what I've gathered from MR members, which tends to make us think that statistically speaking, most can't utilize all of their cores most of the time.

The issue could be with OSX, although it might just as well be that apps are primarily developed for Windows and ported to OSX as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, this is the likely cause.

Windows is a much larger market, so for developers that create Windows software, that version gets priority. Due to financial reasons, it tends to be ported to other OS's rather than developed specifically for it (optimized).

Like I said, the focus of Apple has shifted to the iPhone, iPad, etc (the mobility market). This is where Apple sees the future.

I see Apple maybe giving the Mac Pro one or two more updates and then dropping the line, just like they did with the XServe. Even Steve said they weren't selling well, and it was just a small fractional portion of all Apple sales. The Mac Pro has taken a backstage position in the mobile-based lineup of iPhones, iPads and notebooks that Apple is pushing out like candy for all the consumers to gobble up.
The consumer side generates a lot more money, so it's not unreasonable for it to get most of the focus (meaning internally = development funding).

The MP doesn't get much as-is, as the ODM does almost all of the work (little bit of software development since the case hasn't changed in how long?).

But with new tech up in the next couple of years and price increases, the MP could go into a downward spiral (reduced sales = increase MSRP = further reduction of sales ....) until it's gone as we know it or just gone.
 
This is how I see it as well.


It will come down to cost/benefit for each user.

Consider SP users that only need 4 cores....

In the past, even when Apple's other products closed the gap in terms of core counts (when consumer parts hit 4 cores on a single die), they still fell far short in areas such as graphics and storage (i.e. consumer ports such as USB and FW couldn't cut it, nor could embedded GPU's).

But with the introduction of TB, this has closed this gap as well, particularly with storage (I do still see limits with graphics in TB's current revision, but that can be dealt with, such as a single graphics slot in an iMac).

Now when users see this and the cost difference between these systems, they may seriously reconsider their position on a MP, particularly in our current economy.

So the days of the MP being the "right" machine for users that only need 4 cores is likely to decline as a result. I'm not saying I expect the sales decline to happen all at once, but over say a couple of releases. At which point, Apple will have to make some decisions.

They've a few options, such as either EOL the MP entirely in favor of say an iMac + TB + user upgradeable GPU, or change the MP as we know it into a SP only incarnation of some sort (no more DP models).

You may not see this as a drastic change, but users that actually need more than 8 cores would (i.e. animators and any scientists that have heavily threaded OS X applications).

There are a lot of apps that can use 8 or more cores. Video editing, pro audio, development... I mean, I keep naming categories, I can start naming apps if you want.

I think the confusion here is that people who don't really need the Mac Pro can't tap the Mac Pros power. That's entirely different than the Mac Pro not having a market.

I think a lot of people here are realizing they don't need a Mac Pro, which is different than no one needing the Mac Pro.

Of course it matters, as that's what they base their MSRP's on. So if the total cost per unit suddenly jumps a $1k, then that could exceed the point where users are either willing or able to buy. Profit could disappear, as it's based on a minimum number of units sold (i.e. expect n units sold, and get say 70% of that figure could not just reduce the margin, but actually end up a loss).

Again, Pro users frequently have very high budgets. You're talking about a group where one piece of software might be $1.5k. $5k on a Mac Pro? Not a big deal.

And, yes, again, this is not your typical user. Doesn't really matter. The Mac Pro was never targeted at that sort of user.

This is how I see it as well. Not to say they're equal, but the gap has been closed quite a bit.

Again, I strongly disagree on this. At times, Apple has shipped laptops with the exact same processors as the tower and the tower has survived.

The Mac Pro is not targeted at Photoshop users anyway. It was always a great photoshop machine, but the consumer machines always ran Photoshop very well too.

As per development, since OS X isn't the biggest part of the OS market, I don't see it as accounting for a drastic number of MP sales either.

iOS? You don't need a Mac Pro for running the iPhone simulator, but a Mac Pro cuts through compiles and debugging real nice. And the iOS SDK can use all 12 cores.
 
The Mac Pro definitely has a spot. I for example don't do video editing but I make games.


I hope for your sake that you're developing games for the iOS market and not desktop PC games on that Mac Pro of yours.

At any rate, I already foresaw the future of the Mac Pro after viewing the sales figures for the first iPod model and knew then the consumer market was where Apple was headed.

You'll notice that Apple is no longer innovating with their MP designs whereas in the past (pre-Steve Jobs return), it was their desktops on which the latest technology was featured.

The Mac Pros of today are supplied with hand-me down technologies which appeared first for the mobile device market, particularly Macbook Pros. The remaining factor differentiating them from their PC counterparts is an Intel six-month exclusive for their latest iteration of the Xeon processor. Nothing worth writing home about, all things considered.

It's no secret that Steve Jobs holds the desktop in contempt as they do not square with his vision of a product that can create a seamless experience between man and technology.

In fact, wasn't it only a few years ago where a hardware fault with the 2008 MPs involving overheating with their audio components when MP3s were played was discovered? How long did it take Apple to finally rectify that problem? Moreover, one MP owner who insisted that Apple fix the problem was threatened with the waiver of his Applecare warranty. Do you think Apple would have dared to do this to one of their valued customers 15 years ago?

The consumer is Apple's target market now. The professional has been relegated to that of a second class citizen - the same people who kept Apple afloat for 20 years prior to the phenomenal success of the iOS market. Being subject to the whims and fancies of whatever new tech is given to them courtesy of the iOS devices is how they are being rewarded now.

Need further signs of the apocalypse? Companies that were once biased toward the Mac such as Adobe are distancing themselves or, at the very least, devoting fewer resources to meeting the needs of OSX users. Their entire suite has had their interfaces "Windowfied" and products such as Adobe Premiere are less fully featured on OSX compared to their Windows counterparts. The strained relationship between Apple and Adobe over Flash isn't helping matters either and Steve Jobs doesn't seem to care in the least about repairing that relationship. I don't know about you, but I need Adobe more than I need Apple.

3D game development, the hottest industry today which should have been front and center in the way that the desktop publishing industry was for Apple in the 1990s, is floundering on the Mac . Maya, for instance, is incredibly buggy on OSX - much worse than on Windows. 3DSMAX, which is receives the most numerous support from the gaming industry, is non-existent on OSX. The most popular gaming engines such as Unreal or Cryengine are written exclusively in DirectX - which means no game editors are shipped with game titles ported to the Mac (unless they are from Blizzard). With the exception of the iOS and Unity market, OSX has been effectively knocked out of the game development pipeline.

Let me make it painfully clear; Apple does NOT care about you, the professional. Apple is more interested in catering to that that punk kid you helped conceive 13 years ago. You know, the one with the iPod Nano hanging from his hip?

In the end it won't necessarily be a combination of the above that will herald the death of the Mac Pro, but by the mere inevitability that as tablets continue to mature and improve, developers will be using those same devices to create mobile applications on - instead of the desktop.

If anything, I see the role of the desktop being reverted back to the SGI era - highly specialized systems intended for studios or data centers and priced beyond the reach of the average prosumer.
 
Last edited:
Its heartbreaking. I love Apple. Have been with them since 1985. It is a point of shame for me to have to have a PC Slave that pipes back into the MACpro so I can do my job properly...it's embarrassing.

Yeah, it sucks. BTW, I read somewhere VSL tacitly acknowledges that VEP runs more efficiently on Win7. Ditto for most other European devs. They have traditionally been Windows-oriented as the Mac was not widely adopted there until recently.

Interesting. Seems like a fault in the software to me. CoreAudio is pretty unique, as far as an audio API for pros, not much like it exists on Windows. The latencies are much lower than what is available on Windows.

OS X has always had really good audio playback support for pros actually. Shame that the software isn't delivering audio the CoreAudio fast enough.

That is true. CoreAudio is a great idea, well executed. But tests indicate that Steinberg's open source ASIO protocol trumps it for low latency performance (we're talking 64 sample buffers and lower). Logic counters this by using a 512 or 1024 sample pre-buffer, but if you try running ProTools or Cubase @ 64 samples on OSX, things get jittery quick.

ASIO's major handicap is lack of multi-client ability, but for pro users that is not often a problem as they work mostly within their DAW anyway. I have it from an admittedly questionable source that CoreAudio takes about 5 cycles for every bit of audio, whereas ASIO does it in 3.

Maybe devs will optimize their apss for OSX one day. But its dimunitive marketshare will determine how much resources a company is willing to allocate to that task. Given that Apple has pulled much of its own resources away from the OSX/desktop department in favor of iProducts, they are not exactly leading by example.
 
indeed if you look at who makes trucks it's the higher end car makers.

Paccar, Kenworth, Mack Truck, Sterling, Peterbilt, and Frieghtline are not higher end car makers. Maybe you mean pickup trucks, which are mostly Ford and Chevy, at least around here. Maybe you're in Europe or something.
 
Paccar, Kenworth, Mack Truck, Sterling, Peterbilt, and Frieghtline are not higher end car makers. Maybe you mean pickup trucks, which are mostly Ford and Chevy, at least around here. Maybe you're in Europe or something.

I think he's saying that because top 3 truck makers are Daimler (owns Mercedes, used to own Chrysler, etc), Volvo and Paccar. 2 of the 3 could be considered high end car makers.
 
Diglloyds take on this today: (I hope he is wrong)

"With the recent Apple announcements of a revised MacBook Air, the release of Mac OS X Lion, a revised Mac Mini, and a Thunderbolt-enabled mirror (Cinema display), one might wonder why there is no new Mac Pro?

It’s simple: business investments go into products that matter to profits. The Mac Pro is almost an irrelevancy at this point, contributing perhaps 1% of Apple’s sales, with iPhone and iPad dominating the lineup, and laptops after that.

Add in the resources required to release a rumored iPhone 5 next month and to bring Lion to fruition, and one can reasonably assume that a revised Mac Pro is quite irrelevant to Apple. In fact, Apple could drop it entirely and hardly notice.

Now add in the fact that there is no new chipset (e.g., no “Sandy Bridge” Intel chipset) that would make a new Mac Pro compelling, and the picture is complete.

Could it be Spring 2012 before we see a new model? If we don’t see a new model announced within a few weeks, I deem a February/March date much more likely. Anything sooner is likely to be an incremental update rather than something substantial."
 
on the fence

I am not that sure of the demise of a mac desktop, but I do see the arguments for it disappearing.

*disclaimer: being one of those who deployed bits of an xsan with xserves a couple of months before the xserves were axed probably makes me less trusting of apple's future plans*

Really? You're spinning these numbers and I think you know it....

30% profit on a $5000 machine is going to be a lot more than %50 profit (let's be reasonable here) on a $600 phone.

This is basic 3rd grade math, and the magic of percentages.

You are ignoring the point about volumes - or should I say turnover. 50% of a $600 phone is $300. 30% of $5,000 is $1,500. It takes 5 phone sales to make the profit made in a Mac Pro sale. If the ratio of IOS to Mac Pro sales goes over about 8:1 (I haven't looked at the sales figures to work out what it currently is) then the phones become more profitable (read: more effort should be spent there) than the Mac Pros. Don't forget there's a whole community of people (check afp548.com) for which neither the Mac Pro nor the mini server replaces the xserves.

Bottom line: it could happen.
 
The Mac Pro should be the proud technology leader, not the last one out of the gate.
 
The Mac Pro should be the proud technology leader, not the last one out of the gate.

As has been pointed out numerous times, Apple is at the mercy of Intel here. There are no multi-processor capable Sandy Bridge CPU's available yet (i.e. Xeons) for anyone. And it is completely crazy to expect Apple to redesign the logic board just to add Thunderbolt & SATA3 when it would need to be done again in 6 months for SB.

If we were near the front of the Westmere life cycle and Apple hadn't added Thunderbolt with a speed bump, it might have been a significant message. But you can't really expect anything else given where we are (and it's not like there is anything in the Westmere line that is even speed bumped enough to bother with if they wanted to.

I suspect Apple has a new design ready to test with engineering samples as soon as Intel coughs some up.
 
Last edited:
As has been pointed out numerous times, Apple is at the mercy of Intel here. There are no multi-processor capable Sandy Bridge CPU's available yet (i.e. Xeons) for anyone. And it is completely crazy to expect Apple to redesign the logic board just to add Thunderbolt & SATA3 when it would need to be done again in 6 months for SB.

If we were near the front of the Westmere life cycle and Apple hadn't added Thunderbolt with a speed bump, it might have been a significant message. But you can't really expect anything else given where we are (and it's not like there is anything in the Westmere line that is even speed bumped enough to bother with if they wanted to.

I suspect Apple has a new design ready to test with engineering samples as soon as Intel coughs some up.


Actually at this point I would like Apple to consider a desktop version of the Mac Pro so that new features don't have to wait for Intel to bring up the rear. Either that or negotiate something with Intel to get new platforms earlier in the cycle. Something . . . . I suppose that Apple is trying to migrate us on to top of the line imacs. Not exactly the same... :(
 
Last edited:
I edited this to add a comment about the recent release of Final Cut X. A successor to Final Cut Pro with was discontinued. They pretty much neutered the application to better suit the amateur and prosumer market. What does that tell you?

I'm with you. I had begun to wonder a bit about the state of Apple's commitment to its professional user base (believe it or not, the first time the thought had ever crossed my mind) when I witnessed the release of FCPX. "Neutered" is an excellent word.

I'm a pro audio user. I require PCI slots for my I/O. So there goes the laptop/iMac solution right there. While I do have the requisite ProTools rig, I love using Logic. Yes, it's...idiosyncratic in many ways, but I enjoy and prefer it as a creative arrangement and compositional tool over PT.

But the release of FCPX put the fear of Jobs in me: I have a sneaking suspicion that Logic might be on its death bed in favor of continued pursuit of Garage Band, and that the Mac Pro might not be far behind. Believe me, nothing would make me happier than being proven wrong, but I'm a bit wary right now. The following product announcement from Magma makes me even more paranoid:

"The introduction of Thunderbolt technology on Apple MacBook Pro and iMac computers provides an opportunity for Magma to embrace the next generation of “outside the box” high-speed connectivity and support the users who will be upgrading hardware while continuing to depend on PCI and PCI Express peripherals."

Yes, there are other DAWs out there, many better than Logic in many ways, but I love my Logic/Mac system and would like to keep using this combo indefinitely, without having to resort to buying an iMac and a $2000 Magma chassis.

Again, I'd love to be proven wrong, but this is the first time in 17 years of Mac use that I've developed any doubts.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.