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Stop The Verizon Rumors For One Year

Ryeno said:
If that is true (which i believe it is) AT&T can not disclose that information because that is illegal. ... Legally speaking that 30 dollars a month you are paying to at&t is for data not the subsidy or anything else.
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Care to show me that law?

Listen, I agree that we should have open handsets paid for by the consumer and contract-free cell plans. But that's not the way our cell system works, and won't be until and unless it is mandated by law. As it is, every manufacturer is constrained to subsidize phones and recover the subsidy through service charges because that is what every other carrier is doing and doing anything else would put them at a huge competitive disadvantage.
 
Ryeno said:
You should really take some law classes. It is called fraud.
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No, no it's not.

Ryeno said:
I never said that. I like subsidies, nothing wrong with them.
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So, if I understand you correctly, you want subsidies but you don't want AT&T to be able to recover them through data charges. You also want them to let you share your data plan over a as many devices as you like, with the result that they are actually losing money on you because the cost of providing you data and subsidizing your phones is greater than the amount you're paying. And you don't think that's an unreasonable expectation?
 
thelatinist said:
No, no it's not.



So, if I understand you correctly, you want subsidies but you don't want AT&T to be able to recover them through data charges. You also want them to let you share your data plan over a as many devices as you like, with the result that they are actually losing money on you because the cost of providing you data and subsidizing your phones is greater than the amount you're paying. And you don't think that's an unreasonable expectation?
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Let me make this clear, I do NOT like fraud or deception or misrepresentation.

thelatinist said:
Data Plan for iPhone includes unlimited data in the U.S. Access rich HTML email and desktop-level web browsing, as well as Visual Voicemail to listen to voicemail messages in any order you choose.
Please note: AT&T is Apple's exclusive carrier partner for iPhone in the United States. An eligible data plan for iPhone is required. This data plan covers data usage in the United States and does not cover international data usage and charges. If AT&T determines that you are using an iPhone on your account without an eligible data plan, AT&T reserves the right to add an eligible data plan to your account and bill you the appropriate monthly fee.
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Do you see where it says "subsidy?" That is right, it does not. If AT&T is actually getting their subsidy back through the required data plan then they are committing a crime(s). That data plan is marketed as specifically for access to data not for any subsidy recoup. Furthermore if that is true then you can never finish replaying your subsidy.
 
thelatinist said:
So, if I understand you correctly, you want subsidies but you don't want AT&T to be able to recover them through data charges. You also want them to let you share your data plan over a as many devices as you like, with the result that they are actually losing money on you because the cost of providing you data and subsidizing your phones is greater than the amount you're paying. And you don't think that's an unreasonable expectation?
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Where are you getting this idea the iPad is subsidized? You are paying $130 more for the product, and from my understanding, no contract. And if you're going to be using your iPhone, you probably won't be using your iPad at the same time, and visa versa. It's really a win-win for AT&T if they offered their customers shared data plans on their network with the two devices since they're not subsidizing the iPad. It would help move people who are on Verizon/Sprint/T-Mobile who really really want the iPad but don't want to pay an additional $30 for data on the iPad. Just my opinion though.
 
Ryeno said:
Let me make this clear, I do NOT like fraud or deception or misrepresentation.



Do you see where it says "subsidy?" That is right, it does not. If AT&T is actually getting their subsidy back through the required data plan then they are committing a crime(s). That data plan is marketed as specifically for access to data not for any subsidy recoup. Furthermore if that is true then you can never finish replaying your subsidy.
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How old are you again? Seriously, if you get a cheap "free phone" and you keep it past your two year contract your monthly rate does not decrease due to "paying off" your subsidy. There is no subsidy with the iPad - PERIOD.

The normal data connect charge is $60 per month, not $30. So if you want to complain, start paying AT&T $60/month and then I might be insterested in hearing your thoughts. (who am I kidding - I still wouldn't care)
 
Applejuiced said:
The 2 have nothing to do with eachother genious. You have an iPhone with data and you want to get a 3G wireless card. Do they give it to you free or for a discount since you already pay for unlimited AT&T Iphone data? Same thing, it's a business not a charity.
Shows your maturity level by your attitude and by thinking you should get it cheaper.
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If you're gonna display that avatar, you'd be best advised to pause, before posting about others wanting everything for free.
Jus' sayin'. ;)
 
Ryeno said:
Let me make this clear, I do NOT like fraud or deception or misrepresentation.

Do you see where it says "subsidy?" That is right, it does not. If AT&T is actually getting their subsidy back through the required data plan then they are committing a crime(s). That data plan is marketed as specifically for access to data not for any subsidy recoup. Furthermore if that is true then you can never finish replaying your subsidy.
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You have yet to provide me any evidence that there exists a law against this. You can dislike it all you want, that doesn't make it illegal any more than subsidizing a dumb phones for the past 20 years by charging higher prices for rate plans was illegal. Or than my cable company paying for my "free" DVR by charging me $8/mo for DVR service is illegal. Or than my bank subsidizing my "free" checking by charging higher overdraft fees is illegal. Or...

nehunte said:
Where are you getting this idea the iPad is subsidized? You are paying $130 more for the product, and from my understanding, no contract. And if you're going to be using your iPhone, you probably won't be using your iPad at the same time, and visa versa. It's really a win-win for AT&T if they offered their customers shared data plans on their network with the two devices since they're not subsidizing the iPad. It would help move people who are on Verizon/Sprint/T-Mobile who really really want the iPad but don't want to pay an additional $30 for data on the iPad. Just my opinion though.
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I did not say that the iPad was subsidized. I said that his iPhone is subsidized, and that the cost of providing data access and a $400 subsidy as often as every 18 months for his iPhone makes the $30/mo data plan a barely break-even proposition for AT&T. Adding the additional data usage of another device for the same $30 would certainly make it a losing proposition. Would it attract some customers? Sure, but AT&T doesn't need that kind of customer.
 
thelatinist said:
You have yet to provide me any evidence that there exists a law against this.
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SECTION 484-502.9
or who shall knowingly and designedly, by any false or
fraudulent representation or pretense, defraud any other person of
money,

The iPhone data is plan is represented as a data plan not a subsidy repayment plan. If you are paying extra for data because of the iPhone subsidy but not being told about it then you are getting defrauded.

This is not rocket science here.

thelatinist said:
Or than my bank subsidizing my "free" checking by charging higher overdraft fees is illegal.
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Actually that is illegal which is why the banks dont call overdraft protection a fee but a courtesy service.
 
rdowns said:
Uh-oh, I better go run off lest this "genious" get the best of me.


They have everything to do with each other. If ATT would like to provide another service to me, I'd expect a discount. Just like I get with my cable company and utility company.
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You are getting a discount. Standalone 3G service for a laptop/netbook/tablet on AT&T is normally $60 a month with a two year contract required. The iPad data is $30 a month with no contract. Sounds like a hell of a discount to me.
 
Ryeno said:
SECTION 484-502.9
or who shall knowingly and designedly, by any false or
fraudulent representation or pretense, defraud any other person of
money,

The iPhone data is plan is represented as a data plan not a subsidy repayment plan. If you are paying extra for data because of the iPhone subsidy but not being told about it then you are getting defrauded.
Click to expand...

Ahahaha. Nice try, counselor.
 
Perhaps part of the confusion is calling the iPhone data plan the sole source of subsidy payback. It's everything -- the overall voice+data contract.

When ATT and Apple signed a new agreement to stop revenue sharing, and to allow user subsidies in June 2008, ATT said this in their press release:

"In the near term, AT&T anticipates that the new agreement will likely result in some pressure on margins and earnings, reflecting the costs of subsidized device pricing, which, in turn, is expected to drive increased subscriber volumes.
... (snip) ...
As recurring revenue streams build without any further revenue sharing required, AT&T expects the initiative to turn accretive in 2010. "

As I read it, they're saying it takes about 18 months before the average iPhone plan (revenue stream) pays back the subsidy and starts to make a profit over and above the cost of providing service.
 
yg17 said:
You are getting a discount. Standalone 3G service for a laptop/netbook/tablet on AT&T is normally $60 a month with a two year contract required. The iPad data is $30 a month with no contract. Sounds like a hell of a discount to me.
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Nope. Anyone can get that rate whether or not they are an ATT customer.
 
Ryeno said:
SECTION 484-502.9
or who shall knowingly and designedly, by any false or
fraudulent representation or pretense, defraud any other person of
money,

The iPhone data is plan is represented as a data plan not a subsidy repayment plan. If you are paying extra for data because of the iPhone subsidy but not being told about it then you are getting defrauded.

This is not rocket science here.
Click to expand...

Obviously to you it is. What don't you understand? AT&T or any carrier for that matter says "we charge you X amount for Y service." If you don't agree to the terms, you don't sign up for "Y service." By signing up for "Y service" you agree to the terms and "X charges" - where is there fraud?

There is not anywhere you have proven, even far-fetched-remotely, that there is any type of mis-representation of the terms.


Ryeno said:
Actually that is illegal which is why the banks dont call overdraft protection a fee but a courtesy service.
Click to expand...

He stated Overdraft CHARGES not protection. If you have $10 in you bank account and $100 in your savings (where they usually pull from for your overdraft protection) and you spend $111, guess what you also get charged $25-75 overdraft CHARGE.
 
bbplayer5 said:
<3 my droid :)

Apple would have to make some major improvements on the iphone 4G for me to want it.
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Same here. In fact Motorola can thank Apple for their sale...

See, I was happy with my iPhone 3G/3GS until I finally got fed up with AT&T. I wouldn't even consider leaving but I had enough of AT&T's poor service. I tried a Pre but it wasn't what I wanted. Though it was a great phone I still felt like something was missing. I was spoiled by the iPhone experience.

Then I tried the Droid. Wow, this phone is great. In fact if the iPhone 3GS came out on Verizon today I still wouldn't leave my Droid. Android 2.0 is better than iPhone 3.0, and while the iPhone does some things better than Droid overall I like the phone far more than I liked my iPhone.

The reason Motorola can thank Apple is if it weren't for Apple's stupid restrictive policy and dealing only with AT&T I'd of never even considered leaving my use of the iPhone. I was ignorantly happy.
 
Revelation78 said:
Obviously to you it is. What don't you understand? AT&T or any carrier for that matter says "we charge you X amount for Y service." If you don't agree to the terms, you don't sign up for "Y service." By signing up for "Y service" you agree to the terms and "X charges" - where is there fraud?

There is not anywhere you have proven, even far-fetched-remotely, that there is any type of mis-representation of the terms.
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You misunderstood. He or was it they said that the 30 dollar data plan fee is that high because it in part recoups the subsidy. I said that even if that is true it would be illegal. Then they went on to say it would not be illegal.




Revelation78 said:
He stated Overdraft CHARGES not protection. If you have $10 in you bank account and $100 in your savings (where they usually pull from for your overdraft protection) and you spend $111, guess what you also get charged $25-75 overdraft CHARGE.
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Uhm you do not understand what we are talking about. "Free" checking is not free. Instead of charging you a maintenance fee, they charge you an overdraft fee. But since that would be illegal, they do not call overdraft protection a fee but a courtesy.
 
Ryeno said:
You misunderstood. He or was it they said that the 30 dollar data plan fee is that high because it in part recoups the subsidy. I said that even if that is true it would be illegal. Then they went on to say it would not be illegal.
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Illegal? You signed a contract with AT&T saying you will pay for a monthly voice and data service. Contract means, you agree to the terms. If you want out, there is a clause for that, it's called the ETF.

Now, what AT&T does with that money is not our concern.
 
Even though the iPad is unlocked, it doesn't use a standard sim card. It uses a micro sim that I believe is only offered by AT&T right now in the US. So technically we are still stuck with AT&T. I'm not complaining because I don't have any problems whatsoever but I know a lot of people weren't happy with that.
 
Mlrollin91 said:
Even though the iPad is unlocked, it doesn't use a standard sim card. It uses a micro sim that I believe is only offered by AT&T right now in the US. So technically we are still stuck with AT&T. I'm not complaining because I don't have any problems whatsoever but I know a lot of people weren't happy with that.
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If T-Mobile is up to it, they can also release a micro SIM for the iPad. However, their data plans have to be cheaper because all you will be getting is EGDE at a max.
 
jav6454 said:
If T-Mobile is up to it, they can also release a micro SIM for the iPad. However, their data plans have to be cheaper because all you will be getting is EGDE at a max.
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That is true, I never thought of that, but yeah I agree with EDGE at max, they would really have to create a cheap plan. I don't know who would really want to go to T-Mobile for EDGE. I rather have bad service with some 3G than none whatsoever.
 
Ryeno said:
You misunderstood. He or was it they said that the 30 dollar data plan fee is that high because it in part recoups the subsidy. I said that even if that is true it would be illegal. Then they went on to say it would not be illegal.
Click to expand...

No, I understood just fine - it's not illegal. The $30 data plan does not recoup any subsidy - PERIOD.


Ryeno said:
Uhm you do not understand what we are talking about. "Free" checking is not free. Instead of charging you a maintenance fee, they charge you an overdraft fee. But since that would be illegal, they do not call overdraft protection a fee but a courtesy.
Click to expand...

An OVERDRAFT FEE is not illegal. Go ahead and spend more money in your account and see if you do not see an OVERDRAFT FEE on your next statement. Overdraft PROTECTION is when you have another account that the institution can pull funds from to cover your expenses without incurring any fees.

Of course there is no such thing as "free" checking. Most free checking accounts, you have to maintain a certain level of balance of funds and or Direct Deposit. Why, simple the bank uses your money in your accounts to loan to other bank patrons. Now, you never see your funds drop when these loans are made to other patrons - that's exactly what is happening.

By you agreeing to keep a certain level of funds in your account or through direct deposit (garaunteed that certain funds will be available at regular intervals) the bank uses your account, as well as everyone elses to make money, thus offering you *free checking*.

That's also how some accounts will earn interest paid back to you in your account. The bank is making, well bank, off of your money and does little for you in return.
 
Revelation78 said:
The $30 data plan does not recoup any subsidy - PERIOD.
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Unless you actually work for AT&T, you cannot not say how the 30 dollar a month fee was determined.

Revelation78 said:
An OVERDRAFT FEE is not illegal. Go ahead and spend more money in your account and see if you do not see an OVERDRAFT FEE on your next statement. Overdraft PROTECTION is when you have another account that the institution can pull funds from to cover your expenses without incurring any fees.
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They do not just 'protect' you. On top of the money they protected you, they charge you a 'fee.'
 
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