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If this entire thread is about the merits of subsidy plans in regards to credit score, it doesn't make a difference. If you don't have good credit, a subsidy model won't get you a "free" or $450 phone, let alone a $1,000 flagship. They'll turn you down on the credit check.

Back in the old days, you would have to put a deposit down.

I guess once you built your credit score back up, then you'd be able to request the deposit back and then they would offer you a subsidy discount at the 2 year mark.

The current non-subsidy model is actually more fair. If you have money, but bad credit, you just pay in full and buy the phone and pay for the plan. No credit check at all.

Now if you have bad credit and lack money, then you're SOL. You gotta build your credit score back up. Pay your bills on time and slowly chip away at any accumulated debt.
 
Besides, Apple has just fired the first shot in regards to upgrade durations. In Apple's mind, it's no longer 2 years. It's closer to 3 or 3.5 years now. This justifies the higher prices.

I hope this ends up being the case. I know iOS 12 brought some much needed performance back to some older phones, but who says iOS 13 won't just undo the gains? People are going to be wanting some new features with the next update; hell enough people were bitching that iOS 12 didn't have enough features!

I'm not going to believe this is *really* Apple's new MO unless the performance stays high with iOS 13 and onwards.
[doublepost=1538778298][/doublepost]
I'm sorry but you sound like a just turned 19 year old that doesn't understand how credit works. The whole point of a credit check is to literally see your creditworthiness. Apple is not a charity company. They are doing just fine financially without having to give away their phones. Sorry you made credit mistakes but that's the pill you're gonna have to swallow. It's your mistake, not Apple's.

If someone doesn't have good enough credit to finance a grand or so, they probably shouldn't be buying a phone that costs a grand.
 
I'm sorry but you sound like a just turned 19 year old that doesn't understand how credit works. The whole point of a credit check is to literally see your creditworthiness. Apple is not a charity company. They are doing just fine financially without having to give away their phones. Sorry you made credit mistakes but that's the pill you're gonna have to swallow. It's your mistake, not Apple's.
:rolleyes:
[doublepost=1538804862][/doublepost]
Credit is your A, period. You need it to finance a home, car, get electricity, cable/satellite, hell even employers do credit checks now so bad credit can affect your employment opportunities. If you are a bad credit person, buy used, eBay is your friend. I’m sure an X can be had now for a decent price on the used market. You want new then buy it out right. I’d never finance a phone, rent it, or otherwise. I’d like a GT3 or GT4 in my garage now and I can’t afford either, so I play and drive what I can afford.

What you just said: employers check credit on potential hires. WHY. What on Earth does that have to do with a person getting a job? So a person with bad credit is trying to get a job, pay that debt and they get turned down over their credit :rolleyes:

I wish this country would get rid of the credit system altogether. Pointless. If I can pay $50 a month on a $0 down iPhone plan, Note 9 whatever phone..then why isn't that good enough? Apple and other companies would be raking in cash on no credit, poor credit and average credit. I'm telling you guys but you don't get it.
[doublepost=1538805029][/doublepost]
I hope this ends up being the case. I know iOS 12 brought some much needed performance back to some older phones, but who says iOS 13 won't just undo the gains? People are going to be wanting some new features with the next update; hell enough people were bitching that iOS 12 didn't have enough features!

I'm not going to believe this is *really* Apple's new MO unless the performance stays high with iOS 13 and onwards.
[doublepost=1538778298][/doublepost]

If someone doesn't have good enough credit to finance a grand or so, they probably shouldn't be buying a phone that costs a grand.

Ridiculous statement. I can finance $1k with zero down or even a hundred down and pay monthly payments. But oh dear my little credit isn't worthy despite me being able to make payments.
 
Apple and other companies would be raking in cash on no credit, poor credit and average credit. I'm telling you guys but you don't get it.
You're confusing "you guys don't get it" with "nobody here agrees with what you're saying". Huge difference.
 
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:rolleyes:
[doublepost=1538804862][/doublepost]

What you just said: employers check credit on potential hires. WHY. What on Earth does that have to do with a person getting a job? So a person with bad credit is trying to get a job, pay that debt and they get turned down over their credit :rolleyes:

I wish this country would get rid of the credit system altogether. Pointless. If I can pay $50 a month on a $0 down iPhone plan, Note 9 whatever phone..then why isn't that good enough? Apple and other companies would be raking in cash on no credit, poor credit and average credit. I'm telling you guys but you don't get it.

Because that's how it works. A credit score is solely a measurement of the risk to the creditor to lend you money now based on your past conduct. A low credit score is highly indicative that at some point you did not timely pay your bills, and thus more risk to loan you money now as your propensity to default is higher.

Agree or not that's how it's always worked.

Credit scores sometimes matter for jobs as your financial difficulties can interfere with work. It's also a measure of integrity/character/responsibility to some employers; if you didn't meet your financial commitments you equally may not meet your work ones or be irresponsible with your duties like your finances. In some jobs sectors, people with financial problems dealing with customer data fiduciary duties may be more inclined to abuse the data or steal to fix their own financial problems.
 
  1. Buying cash from Apple
  2. Up program
  3. Carrier pay monthly deals
  4. Buy an older model iPhone
  5. Buy a second hand iPhone
  6. Buy a different type of phone
  7. Keep your phone you already have.
Looks lime we have an option for all incomes.

Personally I’ve always bought mine cash and had a sim only deal. Don’t imagine that will change when I trade up from my iPhone Xs Max.
 
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:rolleyes:
Ridiculous statement. I can finance $1k with zero down or even a hundred down and pay monthly payments. But oh dear my little credit isn't worthy despite me being able to make payments.

Credit rating isn't about whether you can make the payments right now, it's about trust. Have you proven yourself trustworthy in that you're likely to pay back a loan? If you haven't built up any credit (by starting with a low limit credit card, for example, and paying it off reliably), or have failed to re-pay loans or bills in the past, your credit rating goes down because you've shown yourself to be untrustworthy.

People make mistakes, it sucks but it happens. You just have to show you're trustworthy over the next few years to rebuild your credit rating so lenders will trust you again.
 
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:rolleyes:
[doublepost=1538804862][/doublepost]

What you just said: employers check credit on potential hires. WHY. What on Earth does that have to do with a person getting a job? So a person with bad credit is trying to get a job, pay that debt and they get turned down over their credit :rolleyes:

I wish this country would get rid of the credit system altogether. ...

No one is stopping you from saving up and paying the price upfront. No need to use credit.
 
No one is stopping you from saving up and paying the price upfront. No need to use credit.

Exactly. In the OPs world it should work like this:

OP: "Hi Phone Carrier, I would like the best phone you have available with a small upfront cost!"
Carrier: "Alright OP, we have Phone A for $99 down with a 2-year contract"
OP: "Awesome, I'd like to sign up!"
Carrier: "We'll just need to confirm you'll be responsible. Using your credit history, we'll confirm that you pay your debts. You see, by offering you this great deal on a phone we want to make sure the two years of service is covered."
OP: "That won't be necessary! I can pay the $99 and the $59 per month bill! I have a good job, don't worry!"

If you think about this logically, by not ensuring you have a history of paying your bills the carrier is taking on risk.

I'd challenge the OP to put themselves in the shoes of any business owner. If a customer came to your widget store and said "I'd like to have this $100 widget, I can only pay you $10 today, but I will pay you $10 per month. Trust me!" Do you trust that person? If your answer is yes, you are naive and we can end this thread now.

The answer by default is "no." But, if only there was some way to ensure that the person was trustworthy. The credit system was born out of this need. A ledger system confirming that an individual borrowed and repaid their debts.

When you first start out, there is no record, so a creditor is willing to take a small risk with a high reward. For example, many people's first credit card has a $500 limit and of course 20%+ interest. As you show you can use these debts responsibly, the amount of risk a creditor is willing to take increases and the cost to you decreases (lower interest rates).

As many have mentioned, you are entitled to nothing. Further, until another financial crisis, don't expect to see anything like what was seen up until a few years ago. Arguably, the iPhone arrived the perfect and worst time. Perfect for Apple because the financial crisis and desire for the iPhone made it necessary for Carriers to offer subsidies in exchange for revenue lock (contracts). And the worst time for the consumer because it set unsustainable expectations around what phones should cost and how the transaction should be handled.

I would go further and say that the model today is better for the consumer. The costs are separated for the consumer to understand the total cost and make better choices. In the previous model, the 2-year contract/phone cycle encouraged consumption (I have to get a new phone otherwise I am paying the same price using an old phone!).

I'll close by saying that while I have a near perfect credit score, I do feel the credit system has flaws and deep limitations. However, the rules of the system are available to all. Instead of trying to get the iPhone XS you have the "right" to, why don't you put that money aside to build an emergency fund? Or settle old debts? Or use a credit card responsibly for a couple years to build your score back up?

As others have said, you are entitled to nothing. If you want the phone but can't get credit, buy it with cash. If you can't and need "payments" then you likely can't afford it.
 
The difference I see is that, in the subsidy world, there was the strong incentive to get a new phone when eligible before the 2 years were up. Since the monthly bill wouldn't go down once the 2 years were up, you were leaving money on the table. Now, if you have a 2 year DPP, once the 2 years are up, if you are still using the phone, your bill drops by the cost of the phone payment.

Or if you own the phone outright, you can change carriers or MVNOs, depending on phone. I'm currently paying under $60/month for my 2 main lines, one with 8GB of data and "unlimited" voice, and one with 1500 minutes and 500MB of data. Rates were not this cheap when I last had a postpaid subsidized phone.

You can still get subsidized phones on some prepaid carriers. But the phone may be locked for a year on that carrier before you can get it unlocked, but you can generally cancel service at any time without an ETF.
 
That’s how it’s always worked with cars, houses, and anything else you buy on credit. Only those with good credit get the best rates and are approved for higher limits. People with bad credit pay higher rates and/or have lower limits.

A couple months ago you could get the iPhone SE on AT&T prepaid for $50. There are plenty of options for plenty of budgets.
 
Op, ignoring people’s credit and giving them loans that they obviously can’t afford is exactly what caused the economic crash 10 years ago.
 
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Same here. Bill is exactly the same. No subsidies now. And on top of that I have to pay full price for a new phone. So my bill has increased if you include the phone financing price. But you can’t argue with ppl on here. They will tell you that you are better off now than before.

Same here. When the subsidy ended, my bill remain the same. What a surprise, right?

So I would welcome a return to subsidized phone, but we all know that won't happen. People really don't know what they ask for.
 
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Exactly. In the OPs world it should work like this:

OP: "Hi Phone Carrier, I would like the best phone you have available with a small upfront cost!"
Carrier: "Alright OP, we have Phone A for $99 down with a 2-year contract"
OP: "Awesome, I'd like to sign up!"
Carrier: "We'll just need to confirm you'll be responsible. Using your credit history, we'll confirm that you pay your debts. You see, by offering you this great deal on a phone we want to make sure the two years of service is covered."
OP: "That won't be necessary! I can pay the $99 and the $59 per month bill! I have a good job, don't worry!"

If you think about this logically, by not ensuring you have a history of paying your bills the carrier is taking on risk.

I'd challenge the OP to put themselves in the shoes of any business owner. If a customer came to your widget store and said "I'd like to have this $100 widget, I can only pay you $10 today, but I will pay you $10 per month. Trust me!" Do you trust that person? If your answer is yes, you are naive and we can end this thread now.

The answer by default is "no." But, if only there was some way to ensure that the person was trustworthy. The credit system was born out of this need. A ledger system confirming that an individual borrowed and repaid their debts.

When you first start out, there is no record, so a creditor is willing to take a small risk with a high reward. For example, many people's first credit card has a $500 limit and of course 20%+ interest. As you show you can use these debts responsibly, the amount of risk a creditor is willing to take increases and the cost to you decreases (lower interest rates).

As many have mentioned, you are entitled to nothing. Further, until another financial crisis, don't expect to see anything like what was seen up until a few years ago. Arguably, the iPhone arrived the perfect and worst time. Perfect for Apple because the financial crisis and desire for the iPhone made it necessary for Carriers to offer subsidies in exchange for revenue lock (contracts). And the worst time for the consumer because it set unsustainable expectations around what phones should cost and how the transaction should be handled.

I would go further and say that the model today is better for the consumer. The costs are separated for the consumer to understand the total cost and make better choices. In the previous model, the 2-year contract/phone cycle encouraged consumption (I have to get a new phone otherwise I am paying the same price using an old phone!).

I'll close by saying that while I have a near perfect credit score, I do feel the credit system has flaws and deep limitations. However, the rules of the system are available to all. Instead of trying to get the iPhone XS you have the "right" to, why don't you put that money aside to build an emergency fund? Or settle old debts? Or use a credit card responsibly for a couple years to build your score back up?

As others have said, you are entitled to nothing. If you want the phone but can't get credit, buy it with cash. If you can't and need "payments" then you likely can't afford it.

OK ok I know I may sound a little dramatic and unrealistic on this threas but that analogy with the phone company made me literally lol!
 
Forgetting that this is about a smartphone, there are some VERY good financial points in this post. Even I need to take heed. Thanks...

Exactly. In the OPs world it should work like this:

OP: "Hi Phone Carrier, I would like the best phone you have available with a small upfront cost!"
Carrier: "Alright OP, we have Phone A for $99 down with a 2-year contract"
OP: "Awesome, I'd like to sign up!"
Carrier: "We'll just need to confirm you'll be responsible. Using your credit history, we'll confirm that you pay your debts. You see, by offering you this great deal on a phone we want to make sure the two years of service is covered."
OP: "That won't be necessary! I can pay the $99 and the $59 per month bill! I have a good job, don't worry!"

If you think about this logically, by not ensuring you have a history of paying your bills the carrier is taking on risk.

I'd challenge the OP to put themselves in the shoes of any business owner. If a customer came to your widget store and said "I'd like to have this $100 widget, I can only pay you $10 today, but I will pay you $10 per month. Trust me!" Do you trust that person? If your answer is yes, you are naive and we can end this thread now.

The answer by default is "no." But, if only there was some way to ensure that the person was trustworthy. The credit system was born out of this need. A ledger system confirming that an individual borrowed and repaid their debts.

When you first start out, there is no record, so a creditor is willing to take a small risk with a high reward. For example, many people's first credit card has a $500 limit and of course 20%+ interest. As you show you can use these debts responsibly, the amount of risk a creditor is willing to take increases and the cost to you decreases (lower interest rates).

As many have mentioned, you are entitled to nothing. Further, until another financial crisis, don't expect to see anything like what was seen up until a few years ago. Arguably, the iPhone arrived the perfect and worst time. Perfect for Apple because the financial crisis and desire for the iPhone made it necessary for Carriers to offer subsidies in exchange for revenue lock (contracts). And the worst time for the consumer because it set unsustainable expectations around what phones should cost and how the transaction should be handled.

I would go further and say that the model today is better for the consumer. The costs are separated for the consumer to understand the total cost and make better choices. In the previous model, the 2-year contract/phone cycle encouraged consumption (I have to get a new phone otherwise I am paying the same price using an old phone!).

I'll close by saying that while I have a near perfect credit score, I do feel the credit system has flaws and deep limitations. However, the rules of the system are available to all. Instead of trying to get the iPhone XS you have the "right" to, why don't you put that money aside to build an emergency fund? Or settle old debts? Or use a credit card responsibly for a couple years to build your score back up?

As others have said, you are entitled to nothing. If you want the phone but can't get credit, buy it with cash. If you can't and need "payments" then you likely can't afford it.
 
Why do people buy things they can’t afford? This is my only question and post on this thread. If you choose finance while able to pay cash in full that’s fine, but tying yourself to monthly payments for a phone, especially when you have little or no savings, makes no sense at all as your financial situation can change in a heartbeat - you’re made redundant, you or your children get sick etc etc.

Have you ever heard the saying “I want doesn’t get”, this seems applicable to those who think flagship smartphones are their right, whether or not they have the cash to buy them.

Expecting Governments, or anyone else, to subsidise your phone is crazy, why should they, even in this day and age a flagship phone is a luxury not a necessity.
 
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Hmm, I think we are straying off topic here.

Alas, after all, we only live once, and if one has to constantly think they are about to lose everything and simply not enjoy a few things in life, I disagree.

HOWEVER, if you are not paying your rent/mortgage or monthly car payment, to buy/loan a phone, well, what can I say...
 
Hmm, I think we are straying off topic here.

Alas, after all, we only live once, and if one has to constantly think they are about to lose everything and simply not enjoy a few things in life, I disagree.

HOWEVER, if you are not paying your rent/mortgage or monthly car payment, to buy/loan a phone, well, what can I say...
What about if you’ve finished your mortgage? ;)
 
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I buy all my phones outright; I've no wish to rent a phone, and I can go with whatever carrier I want, switching them at will. £1249 is nothing to me.
 
I buy all my phones outright; I've no wish to rent a phone, and I can go with whatever carrier I want, switching them at will. £1249 is nothing to me.

And how is whatever it is per month, say $45/month, at 0% interest any different? Can pay it off anytime too at the same 1249.

It's not "renting" sorry.
 
And how is whatever it is per month, say $45/month, at 0% interest any different? Can pay it off anytime too at the same 1249.

It's not "renting" sorry.
It is renting when you don't own it and pay a monthly cost.
 
It is renting when you don't own it and pay a monthly cost.
But you do own it. It was paid in full via a 0% interest loan. If you stop paying that loan, they send it to collections, but they don't repo the phone. It's your property from day one. When you buy a car with a loan, or a house with a mortgage, do you consider yourself a renter then, too?
 
It is renting when you don't own it and pay a monthly cost.

Huh? Lease is where you HAVE to give it back not paying near the full cost. Ie. leasing a car for $400/month for 2 years; the car cost $30,000 and you paid $9,600. You never owned the car and have nowhere near paid it off.

Like above, this is a mortgage or car finance at 0% interest or fees. You own it at day 1 and keep it as long as you pay the payments.

IF YOU WANT to trade it in early at 50% paid off that is your choice, but when you pay 24 months that's it.
 
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