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Surface Duo
- Thread starter Lobwedgephil
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As soon as I read about the separate embargo for software I knew it was going to be a trainwreck. MKBHD makes a good point though...the surface future on android will be clear about the 2nd iteration. If it has the same issues then it'll be dead. If they make a giant leap forward like the Fold 1 to Fold2, then they may be on to something.
I see a lot of grading on a curve here. Like Wired’s headline: “The Surface Do Is a Buggy Mess, But It’s a Promising Start”. Joanna Stern at the WSJ says it’s “very not ready” but “still very exciting”. I don’t remember any techie saying that about the first gen Apple Watch. The Verge‘s review was by Dieter Bohn, someone who is in love with the idea of folding phones. I’d like to see a review from a skeptic to see if this device convinces them two screens/folding phones are a good idea.
I’m a little surprised Microsoft would release it now if the software is that buggy.
I’m a little surprised Microsoft would release it now if the software is that buggy.
This could have been such a great device if Microsoft was patient. Thin, even bezels. Better processors. More RAM. NFC capability. A more friendly UI (especially for the camera). Working with app developers before the release so that apps are compatible and and take advantage of the screen. The rushing (and pricing) is what kills Microsoft. People need to be fired for this, TBH. The product is that bad.
My concern about foldables in general on Android is the software. Android needs some significant over-hauling to seamlessly make best use of these types of devices and more importantly, big changes and buy in from developers, something I just don't see happening with any pace. These types of devices represent an infinitesimal portion of Android devices and putting significant work in to optimize their apps just isn't worthwhile for them. Hell, we so often see implementations of changes to Android versions of apps lagging behind their iOS counterparts--how long will it take for most apps to be optimized for foldable/split-screen devices?
Example...Swiftkey is the only keyboard that works across all orientations of the Duo, which is expected considering Microsoft owns it. How long is it going to take other keyboards to make the necessary changes to fully work on the Duo? Devs aren't going to be worried about rushing to fix their software to work with what's essentially a handful of devices.
I agree, and I think the only time foldables will be taken seriously is if Apple releases one. iOS developers are largely dependable, unlike Android developers.
IMO this looks like something that might turn out to be a successful tested-in-the-wild beta for Microsoft. I agree that it feels rushed, but that may be according to plan. Better to do a limited real release, take home the feedback from real users, and come back strong for the next round. Not everyone could afford that approach, but Microsoft can.
When it comes to the software, I get that people complain about bugs and sluggishness - but a lot of that can be dealt with. And Microsoft can do that continuously, without having to wait for their next gen hardware.
I think Dieter is on to something when he mentions business devices and the Blackberry. I could see an improved Duo taking that spot. And the feedback should tell Microsoft whether that's an angle to aim for.
I'm still very intrigued, and looking forward to seeing where this goes. I have a feeling that Microsoft are going to keep running with this one, and see to it that the 2nd gen is on another level. If the evolution of the Surface line is anything to go on, then they very well might.
For my personal use, this would never be my daily driver phone. And I'm wondering if the 'phone' segment is really where Microsoft should be with the Duo. I'm planning on moving to having a cheap phone, as small as possible, for one handed, pocket-friendly, worry-free (read: not flagship price) daily driver for all the everyday communication - bank/ticket etc. apps - PLUS one larger device for the 'quality time'/productivity use: large, better quality display, better speakers, better graphics capabilities etc. I'd love to have something like the Duo in that role, but then I'd prefer it a little bigger. Maybe almost as big as an iPad Mini (with Pro style bezels) x 2 with that hinge in between.
Anyway, calling it a disaster is just hyperbole IMO. I don't think anyone is wiping tears off their cheeks at Microsoft HQ today.
Oh, and the hype it stirred up with Microsofts ideas about dual screen productivity/multitasking + their approach to the hardware design can't be denied. In a world of all slabs, I haven't been this excited about a new 'phone' for a long time, and that includes the Fold. If I had the spare cash lying around I certainly wouldn't hesitate to get one and test it for myself.
When it comes to the software, I get that people complain about bugs and sluggishness - but a lot of that can be dealt with. And Microsoft can do that continuously, without having to wait for their next gen hardware.
I think Dieter is on to something when he mentions business devices and the Blackberry. I could see an improved Duo taking that spot. And the feedback should tell Microsoft whether that's an angle to aim for.
I'm still very intrigued, and looking forward to seeing where this goes. I have a feeling that Microsoft are going to keep running with this one, and see to it that the 2nd gen is on another level. If the evolution of the Surface line is anything to go on, then they very well might.
For my personal use, this would never be my daily driver phone. And I'm wondering if the 'phone' segment is really where Microsoft should be with the Duo. I'm planning on moving to having a cheap phone, as small as possible, for one handed, pocket-friendly, worry-free (read: not flagship price) daily driver for all the everyday communication - bank/ticket etc. apps - PLUS one larger device for the 'quality time'/productivity use: large, better quality display, better speakers, better graphics capabilities etc. I'd love to have something like the Duo in that role, but then I'd prefer it a little bigger. Maybe almost as big as an iPad Mini (with Pro style bezels) x 2 with that hinge in between.
Anyway, calling it a disaster is just hyperbole IMO. I don't think anyone is wiping tears off their cheeks at Microsoft HQ today.
Oh, and the hype it stirred up with Microsofts ideas about dual screen productivity/multitasking + their approach to the hardware design can't be denied. In a world of all slabs, I haven't been this excited about a new 'phone' for a long time, and that includes the Fold. If I had the spare cash lying around I certainly wouldn't hesitate to get one and test it for myself.
Love the idea and was thinking of getting one as my company uses all of the Office 365 products, BUT, what I realized is that I'd really be using this as companion device/mini laptop of sorts to my 11 Pro Max and not a phone at all. Personally I do not care about the camera, 5G etc. $1,400 is a steep price to pay for a companion device. If it was an all in one then I'd likely take the plunge. Interesting concept though.
Beat me to it by several hours! So far, I’ve only seen Marques’ review, and sadly, I think I’ve been put about as far off as I needed to be. It’s a triple threat:
3. Poor camera (beyond my hopes, at least)
2. Poor speaker (also worse than I’d hoped)
1. Unpolished software (lag spikes abound)
I’ve written them in order of increasing severity for me. I really just can’t justify having an awkward software experience on a machine of this price range. More thoughts after I’ve seen some more perspectives, hopefully.
Sounds like the Surface Neo, whenever it actually is released, is right up your alley.
Every reviewer is saying people shouldn’t buy this, you’re saying people shouldn’t buy it but everyone be like well I can’t wait for version 2.
LOL if no one buys it what would Microsoft’s motivation be to make the next iteration?
Make it functional for today's standard and price it for the technologies it has? I'm not sure why Microsoft think people will but pay that much money for what essentially is a prototype.Every reviewer is saying people shouldn’t buy this, you’re saying people shouldn’t buy it but everyone be like well I can’t wait for version 2.
LOL if no one buys it what would Microsoft’s motivation be to make the next iteration?
Unfortunately it’s all form and very little function as the software is very unfonished
I'm thinking this is part of Microsoft's EEE strategy, basically them trying to trojan horse their way into everything (embrace) so they can either control it (extend) and either take it over or snuff it out (extinguish) I mean why else would they be getting cosy with Samsung (preloaded Microsoft software) buying git, putting up cash to get into the Linux foundation, making an Android phone?
Anyway, just a little tinfoil (errr... Lead?) hat moment from me I suppose.
However if this was a straight windows 10 / surface phone? I think I'd be different, I think this thing might be something a bit more interesting but with some of Redmond's moves lately, I'm suspect
Anyway, just a little tinfoil (errr... Lead?) hat moment from me I suppose.
However if this was a straight windows 10 / surface phone? I think I'd be different, I think this thing might be something a bit more interesting but with some of Redmond's moves lately, I'm suspect
I got mine last night, and I have only been able to mess with it for about an hour or so. The hardware is great, yes the bezels are huge, but it is very well made and designed. Feel great holding it and the hinge is pretty awesome. The software though, is pretty terrible. When everything is working, the multi tasking ability is the best I have seen, having email on one screen and another app on the other screen is very useful and I really like it. Using this for work and as a secondary device, I can see this being very handy. But software wise, yikes. Sometimes apps go on one display, switch to the other for no reason, go the wrong way, etc. Sometimes they won't close, just a pretty bad overall software experience that is going to need a lot of work. Going to use it until my Fold 2 comes in, but that one will probably win out, as it will be a much more polished experience I am expecting.
This phone has a lot of promise, and I like it. Just way to many downsides initially, but I will see how its looking over the next week.
This phone has a lot of promise, and I like it. Just way to many downsides initially, but I will see how its looking over the next week.
Even if the software was perfect, I personally don't think this would have been a particularly enticing device. It's still 2 screens hinged together, granted the hardware is beautiful and incredibly well designed, but at the end of the day it doesn't do anything software particularly better than the 3 year old Axom M or the LG atrocity dual screen. The usefulness of being able to fold and pocket a tablet is incredible IMO. You can give the Duo very small bezels, all the hardware upgrades, even an external screen and it's still just 2 screens hinged together. My prediction is the Duo will have a foldable screen, but not until V3 or V4 when it makes more sense for Microsoft.
Certainly it doesn't even do anything better than a foldable phone like the Fold 2. I seriously doubt that Microsoft would limit it's apps capabilities to only dual screen phones, we are going to see all those features on something like the Fold 2 as well, especially since MS' main motivation is to sell more subs/services. Now if they had put some sort of Windows OS on there instead of Android that might be a different story. If you need Windows functionality you are not going to buy an ipad, and that's the advantage of the surface pro line up. Then it could have been marketed as a companion device where you could use it as a phone, or you could carry around a primary phone. At least if it had Windows then Microsoft would not have been at the mercy of Google and Android who have the absolute most piss poor track record for tablet development.
This all just reminds me of the entire Windows RT fiasco, the issues with the Duo are glaring and obvious and if any of us armchair quarterbacks can see them why can't Microsoft?
In my view this is terrible, and will not get better until MS, Google and Samsung make an official collaboration of:
- Samsung doing the hardware
- Google baking the dual screen functionality into Android to work well
- Microsoft handling the productivity end and working with Google to make Android integrate better with Windows.
For all of this to work MS and Google need to put whatever beef they have with each other to bed and unite, because we are fast moving to further convergence of devices, the MS Surface Duo is a great concept of that, but all it’s doing right now in its current form is bringing to the surface (excuse the pun) the issues of using Android while not being Google. This means MS will always be a step behind and dependent on Google telling developers to optimize apps etc...for such devices. As it stands Google have their own agenda and MS have their own agenda and my oh my is it coming through with this device ?
I think we can all see where MS is trying to go with this, but they clearly need help from Google OR fork the damn thing and completely forget Google, either way more control of the underlying OS is needed to make this a true productivity beast.
I am willing to bet that if they sort out what I said above, they could cut development time for future Duo devices as I m pretty sure part of the reason for all these delays and old hardware, there is probably A LOT of politics between the two companies and getting anything done probably takes forever, I am sure the story behind the Surface Duo is even more drama filled than all the bugs and glitches we are seeing in the reviews. The Duo is screaming “project everyone hates internally but acts like it was great externally“ lol, I mean HTF does a company like MS release such a huge mess of a device while knowing what’s at stake here. ?
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Which is still a long way off.. Samsung will likely dominate this area I imagine. Fold 3 and fold 4 is likely to be really fantastic
Microsoft kept plugging away with the Surface Pro despite losing billions per year in the beginning. Its only money and MS has a lot of itEvery reviewer is saying people shouldn’t buy this, you’re saying people shouldn’t buy it but everyone be like well I can’t wait for version 2.
LOL if no one buys it what would Microsoft’s motivation be to make the next iteration?
Mines going back
Microsoft is making some amazing hardware, but the software is so not even ready for beta testing its not funny
In my opinion the problem is simple
The least they could have done is worked with the Android app team to optimize Outlook for the Duo
Outlook is the go to app for most professionals, the app is horrible on the Duo
Beyond that loads of potential
I watched the Chiefs Texans game in bed last night and being able to position the Duo literally anywhere at any angle is a huge plus, too bad i was hoping to use the device for business productivity and not for streaming videos
Microsoft is making some amazing hardware, but the software is so not even ready for beta testing its not funny
In my opinion the problem is simple
The least they could have done is worked with the Android app team to optimize Outlook for the Duo
Outlook is the go to app for most professionals, the app is horrible on the Duo
Beyond that loads of potential
I watched the Chiefs Texans game in bed last night and being able to position the Duo literally anywhere at any angle is a huge plus, too bad i was hoping to use the device for business productivity and not for streaming videos
They also plugged at Windows Phone for years and even bought Nokia, only to kill the whole thing just as it was actually becoming good at Windows 10 Mobile, lol.Microsoft kept plugging away with the Surface Pro despite losing billions per year in the beginning. Its only money and MS has a lot of it
We never know what’s going on with Microsoft but I do not get a good feeling about this Surface Duo project, the way the they have released it tells me there is a lot more ugly going on behind the scenes.
Wait a minute, the Outlook app itself is bad? You have got to be kidding me ??
The least they could have done is ensure their own apps are in absolute tip-top shape.