Surface Pro 3 First Impressions

[sracer]

But here is where Microsoft CAN have an advantage... if they don't F it up... which they have been known to do.

They OWN enterprise... and all they have to do is create a way to get the personal users you reference. That on paper seems to be much easier to do than for Apple to get into the office.

Maybe on paper, but historically, Microsoft has failed to leverage their enterprise dominance to gain a similar dominance in the home.
Part of the reason is because people who work on Windows computers all day, don't want their home use to feel like "work". The primary thing that drives home consumers to purchase Windows devices is the commodity-style pricing.

Many companies have instituted BYOD policies. That works CONTRARY to Microsoft's presence in the enterprise.

Many companies are skipping over Windows 8 and waiting for Windows 9, and with advances in the hardware like SP3, they could bridge the gap... as long as the software gets up to speed and they keep up the good work on the hardware.

The problem with Microsoft's current tablet strategy is that it is essentially no different than it was when they first started 14+ years ago.

I had a hunch that Microsoft "rushed" the SP3 out (announcing it 7 months after the SP2) so that they could have the limelight to themselves and pre-empt what Apple might do this Fall. We'll see what Apple does...and if they don't do something amazing, I can see the SP3 holding its own for another product cycle.

 

[spinedoc77]

The Post PC era has been ushered in.

Man, I despise that crock of ***** made up term with all my heart. What Post PC era when 96% of ipad owners have a laptop as well? What Post PC era when iOS and Android users still need a laptop, and in many cases a desktop as well? That whole "simple and elegant" argument doesn't fly IMO as I can do everything just as simply and elegantly on my windows tablet as an ipad. Yes the app market isn't there yet, it will come with time and it has been exponentially improving. Apple has been quite successful in convincing ipad consumers of this Post PC era crap while selling them a Mac laptop on the way out, their business model hinges on exactly that.

The tablet market is declining, while the PC market is starting to stabilize. IMO part of the stabilization is novel designs like the SP3, the Yoga, all in ones, etc. True PC replacements, although that's such a misnomer because they ARE PC's.

 

[sracer]

Man, I despise that crock of ***** made up term with all my heart. What Post PC era when 96% of ipad owners have a laptop as well? What Post PC era when iOS and Android users still need a laptop, and in many cases a desktop as well? That whole "simple and elegant" argument doesn't fly IMO as I can do everything just as simply and elegantly on my windows tablet as an ipad. Yes the app market isn't there yet, it will come with time and it has been exponentially improving. Apple has been quite successful in convincing ipad consumers of this Post PC era crap while selling them a Mac laptop on the way out, their business model hinges on exactly that.

The tablet market is declining, while the PC market is starting to stabilize. IMO part of the stabilization is novel designs like the SP3, the Yoga, all in ones, etc. True PC replacements, although that's such a misnomer because they ARE PC's.

"PC Era" as in, the de facto computing device for consumers being a Windows-equipped computer. (Apple's OS was so small of a marketshare that it wasn't included in the equation) It that respect, we ARE living in a post-PC era... not everyone who does some sort of computing owns a Windows (or OSX) computer. There is some segment of the population that does their computing solely on smartphones or tablets. Of course they can't do everything that they could on a PC, but for their needs, they don't have to. That's the point.

15 years ago, if someone wanted to surf the web, check their email, do online banking, or manage an online photo gallery, they needed a PC. They don't NEED a PC anymore... hence the "post-pc era"

 

[spinedoc77]

"PC Era" as in, the de facto computing device for consumers being a Windows-equipped computer. (Apple's OS was so small of a marketshare that it wasn't included in the equation) It that respect, we ARE living in a post-PC era... not everyone who does some sort of computing owns a Windows (or OSX) computer. There is some segment of the population that does their computing solely on smartphones or tablets. Of course they can't do everything that they could on a PC, but for their needs, they don't have to. That's the point.

15 years ago, if someone wanted to surf the web, check their email, do online banking, or manage an online photo gallery, they needed a PC. They don't NEED a PC anymore... hence the "post-pc era"

Its more accurate to say a post desktop era. Although an ipad and even a smartphone is also a "PC" its still interesting that the vast majority of these owners also own a traditional PC.

Im not arguing your point, you are 100% correct. I think where we disagree is that there can exist devices which combine a traditional PC and the most modern iteration of a PC, ie simple tablets like the ipad.

 

[Black Magic]

Its more accurate to say a post desktop era. Although an ipad and even a smartphone is also a "PC" its still interesting that the vast majority of these owners also own a traditional PC.

Im not arguing your point, you are 100% correct. I think where we disagree is that there can exist devices which combine a traditional PC and the most modern iteration of a PC, ie simple tablets like the ipad.

You made me laugh big time reading your comment to me earlier! I like you man. I'm just stating what I'm seeing. Computers/PCs are being relegated to business and enterprise. Yes, many of us adults still have and buy a laptop or PC of some sort to have flexibility but the younger generation are using phones/tablets as their main devices. They probably won't be buying PCs. If you step back and look around, it's easy to see that we are in a big transition.

 

[a79mac]

Utilizing Surface Pro 3 as a drawing pad for Mac?

Does anyone know if this is possible to utilize the Surface Pro 3 as a drawing pad for your Mac, without reformatting the SP3?

 

[nixiemaiden]

I think the SP3 actually makes for a pretty good tablet. I agree the MS app store can't compete with Apple's, but I find the browser makes up for a lot of what's missing (not including games - that might be a deal breaker for some). Because the SP3 uses a full fledged PC browser, even in tablet mode, you don't need a bunch of apps tailored to do things that can't otherwise be done in a mobile browser. No HBO GO app? No problem - the website works great on the SP3. Zillow app not as good as iOS version? Again, no problem, because the Zillow website has full functionality on the SP3. It's actually kind of nice NOT to have to download an app for every little thing i want to do in tablet mode on the Surface.

To me, this makes it an acceptable tablet but not necessarily good. 3 apps that I regularly use and love on my iPad are Amazon Instant Video, Vudu, and Spotify. The app versions are just very well executed for a tablet. In order to download my movies or music for offline viewing/listening on the SP3, I have to install full fledged desktop versions. Not a total deal breaker, just saying I would prefer app versions similar to what I have on my iPad.

This is a HUGE plus IMO, you have a FULL browser with no concerns about Flash, compatibility, etc etc. IE11 does an absolutely fantastic job at browsing webpages, and Metro IE11 is quite nice as well and very much geared for touch navigation. Microsoft really really did a nice job with Metro IE11 and incorporating it into the touch world.

I don't think this was executed very well either especially with the SP3. For me, the metro version is basically unusable with the keyboard attached. I can't get the address bar to come up unless I pull the keyboard down from where it attaches to the bottom bezel in order to touch where I need for it to pop up. I understand that it is the tablet version and designed for touch but sometimes it would be nice to use the touch to navigate but still use the keyboard to type. The second thing is that I have no idea how it decides whether to use full verison IE or metro IE because the icon from the metro UI seems to open whichever version it feels like opening today. I didn't really give much thought to it since I'm not much of an IE user anyway but something I could see other people getting frustrated with.

For the convo above, using a web browser on a tablet versus having a dedicated app is not a great work around. One example would be a bank app. When the bank apps are done right, you can do everything quickly and easy on your phone versus zooming in/tapping just right in the browser.

I disagree in the sense of tablets. For my iPhone that is always on and connected, I prefer the apps. However, most of the banks don't offer full web site functionality within the apps..by which I mean they usually block bank to bank transfers and you don't have access to their web chat or customer service, etc. Chances are, if I am using my iPad or SP3, I am using the full version of the web site anyway because I need functionality that the phone doesn't offer.

 

[Patrick B]

I think it would be best holding off on purchasing a Surface right now. The new CEO is trying to get the company focused and are currently redoing and dumping half baked products. Windows 8.1 is one of the ones they are leaving behind as now the full focus is on Windows 9 and getting the platform focused. If they actually get it together and figure out what the want to do, the Surface 4 will be half way decent. Obviously it will have better specs and the software may have matured greatly. Will the Surface 2 and 3 get Windows 9? Who knows? Why take that chance and buy an incomplete product now with Windows 9 around the corner? I see it just like the enterprise. Everyone (for the most part) skipped over Windows 8 and Windows Server 2012 waiting for MS to get it together with the Start Menu and all. The Surface should be looked at in the same light. Hell, they dumped the Surface Mini just before production.

Except, why is the development of Windows 9 any hindrance to the SP3 (or even an SP2) running it? It's a full-fledged PC....x86 CPU, RAM, storage....no inherent reason why it can't run Win 9 every bit as well as it runs Win 8/8.1?

This isn't Android, where the independent device makers virtually abandon the hardware after release with regards to software updates (*cough* Samsung *cough).

The SP4 may have some increased performance compared to the SP3, but the whole "wait to buy one" question has dogged the PC industry from the first 6 months. An iPad retina is just as productive and functional as an iPad Air despite the improved CPU and better form-factor of the Air....same version of iOS running on it.

Waiting for the "next big thing" is what Apple has been driving at for years now....iPhone, iPad et al. Just as many people in the industry are saying that Apple hasn't invented anything new lately either (and if the rumors are correct, then the iPhone 6 may be responding to the Android screen-size market race rather than inventing anything new on their side).

Heck, I can even go backwards on a Surface Pro....no reason I couldn't run Windows 7 on an SP3 (though I'll admit why bother).

For the convo above, using a web browser on a tablet versus having a dedicated app is not a great work around. One example would be a bank app. When the bank apps are done right, you can do everything quickly and easy on your phone versus zooming in/tapping just right in the browser.

Why is it not a great work-around? You're conflating a smartphone screen / interface issue with a laptop / large-screen issue. When I do my banking on my Macbook Pro, it's not like my bank has an "app" for me to do my banking on it? I use a browser...same as I've done for the past decade.

Guys, get over yourselves on the app love-fest; it's not like an app suddenly brings miraculous productivity or functionality that never existed previously on a laptop using a standard browser. In fact in my own case, I have greater access using the browser to conduct my banking than I do using the equivalent iOS app (iPad or iPhone).

It just means I have similar functionality on my iPhone as I previously only had on a laptop / desktop. It doesn't bring anything terribly new to the equation.

Lastly, I think Apple shocked Microsoft. Legacy Apps are being banished to businesses and enterprise. Heck, PCs and computers too. Apps are now the new hotness and Apple knows that everyone wants elegance, ease of use, quality, with a dash of sophistication. The days of defragging and clean installing the OS at home are done. The Post PC era has been ushered in.

To some extent this is true.....which is an indicator that in the post PC era (which I don't disagree with completely) our computing devices have become essentially disposable. The annual refresh cycle for portable computing devices has become common-place, whereas it was previously a multi-year cycle for desktops or even laptops. Now the devices are non-user-servicable, and the standard answer is an outright replacement.

Heck even Apple has recommended a complete reinstall of iOS at times when users have been trying to figure out why their 128 GB iPad has 22 GB of "Other" in it.



Patrick

 

[Night Spring]

Guys, get over yourselves on the app love-fest; it's not like an app suddenly brings miraculous productivity or functionality that never existed previously on a laptop using a standard browser. In fact in my own case, I have greater access using the browser to conduct my banking than I do using the equivalent iOS app (iPad or iPhone).

This has got me thinking about why I tend to prefer apps on my iPad over using a website. And for me, the main reason is that most apps are less cluttered and easier to see than the websites. So for instance, with Dropbox, I have to use the website to change my account settings. So in that sense, the website is more fully featured than the app. But for the functions that the app does provide, the app is easier to use, and feels smoother and more stable.

There are some exceptions, though. I use FeedWrangler for my RSS feeds, and their app is so slow, and the font is too small to see, that I end up using the website. Whenever there is a major tennis championship, I download the official apps, and I end up using the app and website about 50-50. In this case, the apps have functions not offered by the website (notification alert when your favorite players are playing, live scores on the website needs flash), and some views are better on the app while other views are better on the website.

Oh, and another thing that occurred to me just now is that most websites are designed to use with keyboard and mouse, unless you land at one that is designed for a phone. Few websites have versions that are optimized for tablets.

So, in my opinion, there are valid reasons why apps are preferred over websites, and it's not just a fad or hype. If you are getting an SP3 to use primarily as a laptop, a lack of apps probably won't bother you, but if you spend a lot of time using it as a tablet, I, for one, would prefer to have apps.

----------

The second thing is that I have no idea how it decides whether to use full verison IE or metro IE because the icon from the metro UI seems to open whichever version it feels like opening today

Are you sure you don't have two IE icons on your start screen? This happened to us when we tried the SP3. We would be playing with it, and one of us would install a desktop version of Dropbox, and the other would install the Metro version, then there are now two Dropbox icons on the start screen. If we had decided to keep the SP3, I would have looked into whether there was a way to differentiate them somehow, but we decided to return it before I got that far.

 

[nixiemaiden]

Are you sure you don't have two IE icons on your start screen? This happened to us when we tried the SP3. We would be playing with it, and one of us would install a desktop version of Dropbox, and the other would install the Metro version, then there are now two Dropbox icons on the start screen. If we had decided to keep the SP3, I would have looked into whether there was a way to differentiate them somehow, but we decided to return it before I got that far.

I don't think I did that but I don't really know. I can say for sure that I never installed IE and whatever is there is whatever came with it. It is the same icon that I am clicking on and sometimes it opens the tablet version and sometimes it opens the full version. I think if I had been recently using full version, it opens the full version and if I haven't, it opens the metro version. I can't say for sure because now I just use Chrome or Opera.

 

[sracer]

Guys, get over yourselves on the app love-fest; it's not like an app suddenly brings miraculous productivity or functionality that never existed previously on a laptop using a standard browser. In fact in my own case, I have greater access using the browser to conduct my banking than I do using the equivalent iOS app (iPad or iPhone).

It just means I have similar functionality on my iPhone as I previously only had on a laptop / desktop. It doesn't bring anything terribly new to the equation.

That's your opinion and you are free to embrace it. It simply doesn't line up with what has happened over the last 5 years. Tablets have become popular, the iPad in particular, because they offer a more streamlined touch-optimized experience.

You've previously stated that isn't a high priority for you... that you believe that a mix of desktop, touch, and browser solutions is as acceptable as a cohesive touch-optimized experience.

If your perspective is in the majority, then we should see the Surface Pro grow significantly. If it isn't, and it hasn't in the past, then the Surface Pro will be a niche product.

 

[Black Magic]

Except, why is the development of Windows 9 any hindrance to the SP3 (or even an SP2) running it? It's a full-fledged PC....x86 CPU, RAM, storage....no inherent reason why it can't run Win 9 every bit as well as it runs Win 8/8.1?

This isn't Android, where the independent device makers virtually abandon the hardware after release with regards to software updates (*cough* Samsung *cough).

The SP4 may have some increased performance compared to the SP3, but the whole "wait to buy one" question has dogged the PC industry from the first 6 months. An iPad retina is just as productive and functional as an iPad Air despite the improved CPU and better form-factor of the Air....same version of iOS running on it.

Waiting for the "next big thing" is what Apple has been driving at for years now....iPhone, iPad et al. Just as many people in the industry are saying that Apple hasn't invented anything new lately either (and if the rumors are correct, then the iPhone 6 may be responding to the Android screen-size market race rather than inventing anything new on their side).

Heck, I can even go backwards on a Surface Pro....no reason I couldn't run Windows 7 on an SP3 (though I'll admit why bother).

Patrick

The Surface Pro 3, 2, and 1 probably could install and run Windows 9 just fine but at this point it's a guess and no one knows for sure except Microsoft. Heck, notice how there wasn't a Surface RT 3? Microsoft can drop support of a product on a whim. Surface Mini ring any bells?

IMO, it doesn't make sense to buy a product that is already towards the end of it's life cycle especially when the new one is right around the corner. It's like me going out and buying an iPhone 5s right now. Probably not a good idea even when I know iOS 8 will support it. Why? Because with new hardware comes new exclusive features.

Regarding websites versus apps, I think Night Spring and SRacer nailed it. If I'm using a device that has a primary input method of touch, I want software optimized for that input method. Apps meet that requirement. Websites can as well but that is the exception and not the rule. If you are happy using non touch friendly websites and software on touch friendly devices, more power to you. You stating that because you have settled for this lesser experience and that the rest of us should "get over ourselves" though is a bit illogical you think?

 

[Night Spring]

I don't think I did that but I don't really know. I can say for sure that I never installed IE and whatever is there is whatever came with it. It is the same icon that I am clicking on and sometimes it opens the tablet version and sometimes it opens the full version. I think if I had been recently using full version, it opens the full version and if I haven't, it opens the metro version. I can't say for sure because now I just use Chrome or Opera.

That is the annoying thing about IE on Win8 devices -- they come with both versions of IE pre-installed. Personally, I dislike the Metro version of IE, and did my best to avoid it, which might be why I didn't notice this icon problem you describe. But the possibility of having two versions of the same app is another reason I feel Win8 is user-unfriendly. We had a good laugh imagining how the conversation would go if we tried to explain having two versions of an app to our non-technologically inclined relatives and acquaintances. We are never recommending a Win8 system to any of them!

 

[Patrick B]

This has got me thinking about why I tend to prefer apps on my iPad over using a website. And for me, the main reason is that most apps are less cluttered and easier to see than the websites. So for instance, with Dropbox, I have to use the website to change my account settings. So in that sense, the website is more fully featured than the app. But for the functions that the app does provide, the app is easier to use, and feels smoother and more stable.

There are some exceptions, though. I use FeedWrangler for my RSS feeds, and their app is so slow, and the font is too small to see, that I end up using the website. Whenever there is a major tennis championship, I download the official apps, and I end up using the app and website about 50-50. In this case, the apps have functions not offered by the website (notification alert when your favorite players are playing, live scores on the website needs flash), and some views are better on the app while other views are better on the website.

Oh, and another thing that occurred to me just now is that most websites are designed to use with keyboard and mouse, unless you land at one that is designed for a phone. Few websites have versions that are optimized for tablets.

So, in my opinion, there are valid reasons why apps are preferred over websites, and it's not just a fad or hype. If you are getting an SP3 to use primarily as a laptop, a lack of apps probably won't bother you, but if you spend a lot of time using it as a tablet, I, for one, would prefer to have apps.

So, a good point. Personally, I AM getting an SP3 for primary use as a laptop, with secondary use as a tablet. The touch interface is nice to have a useful to me, but it's not my driving factor.

The tablet apps I tend to use are entertainment related moreso than productivity related (Plex, Netflix, NextIssue, Zinio etc). So as far as touch-screen / tablet usage goes, all of those are available for Windows 8.1 / SP3 (plus several others that I use regularly along similar lines).

For productivity, most internal (ie, my company) tools are built on websites with very few "appified" and those that are have pretty poor transitions from a website to an app.

Other common use apps, such as banking and stock trading in my case the websites are far, far more useful than the stand-alone apps (regardless of platform).

Even on an iPad, a number of websites (particularly forums) are significantly easier to use with a keyboard vs the touch screen. And while several forums that I frequent have app versions available, that becomes a different hassle in which I need to then track down which app to use for which forum (ie, if I frequent 15 forums, then theoretically I need 15 apps to successfully use a touch screen interface with them....vs just using Safari with a keyboard).

The use case is what's critical.

The Surface Pro 3, 2, and 1 probably could install and run Windows 9 just fine but at this point it's a guess and no one knows for sure except Microsoft. Heck, notice how there wasn't a Surface RT 3? Microsoft can drop support of a product on a whim. Surface Mini ring any bells?

Wait what? The Surface Mini was announced and cancelled? Hmm....that would seem to be news to everyone....as no such announcement was ever made (despite rampant speculation by the industry pundits).

As to the Surface (non Pro version..)....well, you can still buy one of those in the Microsoft store. So I'm pretty such they haven't cancelled that one yet either.

IMO, it doesn't make sense to buy a product that is already towards the end of it's life cycle especially when the new one is right around the corner. It's like me going out and buying an iPhone 5s right now. Probably not a good idea even when I know iOS 8 will support it. Why? Because with new hardware comes new exclusive features.

Wait, what?? The Surface Pro 3 is towards the end of it's lifecycle? Do you actually think about what you're typing, or do you just ramble on?

The product was announced MAY 20th. It's now July 28th. I mean, I do understand that technology moves quickly, but a nine-week product lifecycle seems to be pretty extreme, even for Microsoft.

I mean, Apple launched the 128GB retina iPad in February of 2013, and then by October they launched the iPad Air as replacement...an 8 month lifecycle caused a lot of people to complain then....I can only imagine what Microsoft must be thinking with a 9-week product lifecycle.

Of course, I haven't seen any announcements for the Surface Pro 4, nor what tech specs it may have, but hey, maybe I'm just not paying attention.

Regarding websites versus apps, I think Night Spring and SRacer nailed it. If I'm using a device that has a primary input method of touch, I want software optimized for that input method. Apps meet that requirement. Websites can as well but that is the exception and not the rule. If you are happy using non touch friendly websites and software on touch friendly devices, more power to you. You stating that because you have settled for this lesser experience and that the rest of us should "get over ourselves" though is a bit illogical you think?

Sorry, a "lesser experience"? You're the one saying that a hybrid Windows OS desktop and Modern UI tablet interface is unwelcome, but how is it a lesser experience to offer users the choice?

The advantage of the SP3 is the ability to run both "apps" as well as desktop software of various flavours. This is something that neither the iPad or the Mac line can do.

As an example, I can create Powerpoint presentations with relative ease on the SP3 (or any laptop, for that matter) using a keyboard / mouse / pen, and then flip into the Netflix app and watch an episode of House of Cards.

For apps like Netflix, or Plex, or similar media centric uses, the touch interface (Windows 8 / iOS / Android) is far better than loading up the Netflix webpage and launching from there. I tend to dislike watching Netflix on my MBP. But I enjoy it on my Apple TV or iPad.

On the flipside, I can trade stocks to my hearts content via my bank's website much more readily than I can using their app (in fact for my own bank, I HAVE to use the website to trade stocks since it's not available in the app).

Again, it all comes down to a person's particular use case or cases. The SP2 was a decent tablet but only so-so as a laptop.

The SP3 (so far) seems to be far better as a laptop replacement and perhaps a little poorer as a tablet (just due to size).

In my case, it's replacing my Macbook Pro, not my iPad Mini.

But by no means do I think of it as a "lesser experience".



Patrick

 

[nixiemaiden]

That is the annoying thing about IE on Win8 devices -- they come with both versions of IE pre-installed. Personally, I dislike the Metro version of IE, and did my best to avoid it, which might be why I didn't notice this icon problem you describe. But the possibility of having two versions of the same app is another reason I feel Win8 is user-unfriendly. We had a good laugh imagining how the conversation would go if we tried to explain having two versions of an app to our non-technologically inclined relatives and acquaintances. We are never recommending a Win8 system to any of them!

I figured it out. I guess if IE is not your default browser, the icon in Metro will open up in desktop mode. Which is pretty stupid IMO. I don't want IE to be my main browser however, in tablet mode with the keyboard not attached, it isn't bad.

It makes sense because I was playing around a lot with my default browser settings a lot when I first got it before I settled on Chrome.

 

[Patrick B]

That's your opinion and you are free to embrace it. It simply doesn't line up with what has happened over the last 5 years. Tablets have become popular, the iPad in particular, because they offer a more streamlined touch-optimized experience.

You do realize that Apple's iPad shipments have DECREASED by 9% year over year from 2013 to 2014?

And that Apple's Mac shipments INCREASED by 18% year over year from 2013 to 2014?

Mac revenues are within spitting distance of iPad revenues ($5.5B per quarter vs $5.8B per quarter).

So the 4 year trend of software moving to apps from stand-alone or webpage driven software seems to be on the decline.

And again, once you take games out of the equation, probably 50% of the "apps" are just interfaces to the same web-engine that drives the desktop website.

It's merely a different interface element. Otherwise hopefully the same (if not reduced....see many banking apps) functionality.



Patrick

 

[spinedoc77]

This has got me thinking about why I tend to prefer apps on my iPad over using a website. And for me, the main reason is that most apps are less cluttered and easier to see than the websites. So for instance, with Dropbox, I have to use the website to change my account settings. So in that sense, the website is more fully featured than the app. But for the functions that the app does provide, the app is easier to use, and feels smoother and more stable.

Oh, and another thing that occurred to me just now is that most websites are designed to use with keyboard and mouse, unless you land at one that is designed for a phone. Few websites have versions that are optimized for tablets.

So, in my opinion, there are valid reasons why apps are preferred over websites, and it's not just a fad or hype. If you are getting an SP3 to use primarily as a laptop, a lack of apps probably won't bother you, but if you spend a lot of time using it as a tablet, I, for one, would prefer to have apps

Regarding websites versus apps, I think Night Spring and SRacer nailed it. If I'm using a device that has a primary input method of touch, I want software optimized for that input method. Apps meet that requirement. Websites can as well but that is the exception and not the rule. If you are happy using non touch friendly websites and software on touch friendly devices, more power to you. You stating that because you have settled for this lesser experience and that the rest of us should "get over ourselves" though is a bit illogical you think?

See I don't get this. I'm not belittling your experience because 2 people can have drastically different experiences with the same device, OS, etc. But I've always found browsing the web MUCH easier on a full browser, rather than relying on apps. Apps are too limiting, and in exchange for that big red stop and big green go button mentality many times you give up functionality. Of course if I'm kicking back on the sofa or the subway I'll go to Metro IE11, but mainly for ease of touch use for bookmarks and forward/back functions, that's really it. I never understood why IE11 would be easier or "made for" mouse/keyboard use, other than bookmarks and forward/back. You touch things with your finger, you touch a hyperlink, etc. IMO you guys should play with Metro IE11 a bit more, it really is quite nice when browsing in the touch/tablet paradigm. It doesn't have an iota of desktop to it, but still has the power of a desktop browser.

I think the reason I don't really care for apps that much is that MS has provided Win8 with a fairly comprehensive core app list. News, email, Onedrive, calendar, Internet browser, weather, app store, maps, oneNote, etc. These apps all work very nicely on tablets and have nothing of the desktop in them. Yet I have the flexibility to do some heavy lifting if I need to switch back to that paradigm. Most other apps seem to be a compromise and I find myself only using them if I'm in a situation like being on a subway where I really need a huge button to press. Examples might be banking apps, dropbox, etc, all apps which IMO are compromised but nice to have in app form when you are holding on for dear life on the subway.

 

[Night Spring]

And again, once you take games out of the equation, probably 50% of the "apps" are just interfaces to the same web-engine that drives the desktop website.

It's merely a different interface element. Otherwise hopefully the same (if not reduced....see many banking apps) functionality.

Well, as I mentioned before, even with apps that are interfaces to websites, many of them offer an easier to use tablet interface than the websites. It seems you don't put much value in ease of use, but to some of us, ease of use is more than just "merely different interface."

I mean, there are so many apps on my iPad where I prefer the app to the website. Dropbox, youtube, Yahoo weather, Yelp, Groupon, ESPN, Netflix -- these apps are, in my view, all better than the website.

Then I have my reading apps, like iBooks and Kindle. There is no website version of iBooks, and Kindle web app is just laughable.

Then there are the mapping apps, which I don't know if they have a website, I just downloaded these apps and never thought to look for websites. If website versions do exist, if they are anything like Google maps on the web, then again, the app version is much superior.

Then there are my various productivity apps, like iWorks, various timers, todo lists, calendars. iWorks has a web version, but it's painfully slow and frustrating to use. Calendars and todos, why even bother with the web?

The thing about websites that try to do too much, like iWorks, is that they get slooooooow. So just because something can be done through a browser, doesn't mean that it's always the optimal way to do it. So, yes, maybe 50% of the apps I have are interfaces to websites, but they often provide a superior experience than websites. And as for the other 50% that are stand-alone, well, most of them can't be replicated by websites.

And after all, if you aren't interested in using tablet apps, why get a Win8 machine at all? Why not just stick with a Win7 laptop? Aside from enterprise users who can take advantage of Win8's advanced server functions, the only reason why a regular consumer would get Win8 is to use tablet apps.

 

[sracer]

I think the reason I don't really care for apps that much is that MS has provided Win8 with a fairly comprehensive core app list. News, email, Onedrive, calendar, Internet browser, weather, app store, maps, oneNote, etc. These apps all work very nicely on tablets and have nothing of the desktop in them. Yet I have the flexibility to do some heavy lifting if I need to switch back to that paradigm. Most other apps seem to be a compromise and I find myself only using them if I'm in a situation like being on a subway where I really need a huge button to press. Examples might be banking apps, dropbox, etc, all apps which IMO are compromised but nice to have in app form when you are holding on for dear life on the subway.

Sounds like the Surface Pro is a great fit for your use cases.

What do you think Microsoft needs to do to win over others... who look at Android and iOS tablet experiences (and the consistency they exhibit) as the mark to meet/beat?

 

[mrex]

Back to the topic... Anyone using Lightroom with SP3? How is the experience?

 

[Black Magic]

See I don't get this. I'm not belittling your experience because 2 people can have drastically different experiences with the same device, OS, etc. But I've always found browsing the web MUCH easier on a full browser, rather than relying on apps. Apps are too limiting, and in exchange for that big red stop and big green go button mentality many times you give up functionality. Of course if I'm kicking back on the sofa or the subway I'll go to Metro IE11, but mainly for ease of touch use for bookmarks and forward/back functions, that's really it. I never understood why IE11 would be easier or "made for" mouse/keyboard use, other than bookmarks and forward/back. You touch things with your finger, you touch a hyperlink, etc. IMO you guys should play with Metro IE11 a bit more, it really is quite nice when browsing in the touch/tablet paradigm. It doesn't have an iota of desktop to it, but still has the power of a desktop browser.

I think the reason I don't really care for apps that much is that MS has provided Win8 with a fairly comprehensive core app list. News, email, Onedrive, calendar, Internet browser, weather, app store, maps, oneNote, etc. These apps all work very nicely on tablets and have nothing of the desktop in them. Yet I have the flexibility to do some heavy lifting if I need to switch back to that paradigm. Most other apps seem to be a compromise and I find myself only using them if I'm in a situation like being on a subway where I really need a huge button to press. Examples might be banking apps, dropbox, etc, all apps which IMO are compromised but nice to have in app form when you are holding on for dear life on the subway.

I guess a good example to get the point across would be using a map app on the iPad versus using Google Maps website. On the iPad, Google maps app interface is clean and intuitive with touch or voice enabled functionality optimized. On the website, I'd have to zoom in to make sure I touch the right link and field. The process would be generally slower than using the app IMO.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Man, I despise that crock of ***** made up term with all my heart. What Post PC era when 96% of ipad owners have a laptop as well? What Post PC era when iOS and Android users still need a laptop, and in many cases a desktop as well?

Why is ownership of a "traditional" PC necessarily contra to the idea of the "Post PC Era"?

At this stage of things wouldn't a more valuable metric be proportional usage time? What proportion of your time spent using a computing device is done on a laptop or desktop vs. a mobile device?

I would argue that for most people this usage has massively skewed in favour of mobile devices and will continue to increase.

 

[Night Spring]

But I've always found browsing the web MUCH easier on a full browser, rather than relying on apps.

Browsing the web isn't the same as using an app. I agree with you that general browsing is easier on a browser, so in case of apps like the tennis championships apps, where the app basically just gives you a different way to view the website, I find myself using Safari instead of the app. But video apps like YouTube and Netflix, I find I like the apps more, because the apps show you just the videos, while the website includes links and ads that don't directly relate to the vids. Then apps like Dropbox gives me more touch optimized controls, so I can more easily use the various commands. Maybe I feel this more because of my mobility issues, but websites like Dropbox are pretty hard for me to use by touch. And then there are things like iWork and GoogleDocs, where the website is much slower and feels less stable than the apps. And of course, maps, as Black Magic pointed out above.

 

[spinedoc77]

Sounds like the Surface Pro is a great fit for your use cases.

What do you think Microsoft needs to do to win over others... who look at Android and iOS tablet experiences (and the consistency they exhibit) as the mark to meet/beat?

I think a huge part of the issue is brand recognition and quality of hardware. Windows has a huge brand recognition, but it traditionally doesn't have hardware like the ipad. They are trying very hard to break into hardware with the SP3, but that's more meant as an ultrabook replacement and is better to go toe to toe with the MacBook Air. The other part, hardware quality just isn't there from the oem vendors, and what is there isn't cheap enough in light of that lack of quality. We do see the windows atom tablet market getting cheaper though, the Dell Venue 11 Pro is a very nice tablet for $499, and the T100 is not great but not terrible either, but compared to Android tablets they are still overpriced IMO. Either the OEM's need to increase quality to compete with the ipad, or decrease price to compete with Android.

You have to give MS credit though, they are exponentially increasing their app market day by day. Sure it's far from perfect, but the core apps are covered very strongly, most of the popular apps are covered strongly.

What MS needs to do is buckle down and market the crap out of having a "real" computer in a package the size and thinness of an ipad, with the battery life and similar price as well. The mistake MS made was they chose Windows RT as that poster boy, and what a huge mistake it turned out to be. Simply releasing an Atom Surface with full windows on it and a marketing campaign behind it pushing how much more you could do with it than with an ipad. Include a snap on keyboard in the box, not separate. I honestly think MS would have a much more significant market share than they do today if they did that.

Lets see what happens with the surface 3, which is rumored to be coming out soon. If they make it Windows RT it will be suicide for them and a complete ceding of the market to the ipad and android tablets. The surface pro 3 will sell well, but more in terms of ultrabook numbers not tablet numbers.

----------

I guess a good example to get the point across would be using a map app on the iPad versus using Google Maps website. On the iPad, Google maps app interface is clean and intuitive with touch or voice enabled functionality optimized. On the website, I'd have to zoom in to make sure I touch the right link and field. The process would be generally slower than using the app IMO.

Yes I agree with you 100%, but I think you are talking in terms which are too black and white. What I mean is that windows tablets are not only constrained to a web browser map, they do have a specific map app which is very comparable to iOS and Android. So in essence you are right, but it's a moot point because I can just switch over to the map app.

----------

Why is ownership of a "traditional" PC necessarily contra to the idea of the "Post PC Era"?

At this stage of things wouldn't a more valuable metric be proportional usage time? What proportion of your time spent using a computing device is done on a laptop or desktop vs. a mobile device?

I would argue that for most people this usage has massively skewed in favour of mobile devices and will continue to increase.

I agree 100%. If you read what I said my main issue was the semantics of the phrase Post PC era. The smartphone is a PC. An ipad is a PC. What is meant by Post PC era is really Post Desktop era, or if you are more cynical Post Windows era.

It is interesting to note though that the tablet market is retracting while the "PC" market is stabilizing and improving. We can guess that the tablet market is reaching saturation, but you would think that the PC market would have reached saturation a long time ago. I'm personally not sure what to make of it, but it is interesting.

----------

Browsing the web isn't the same as using an app. I agree with you that general browsing is easier on a browser, so in case of apps like the tennis championships apps, where the app basically just gives you a different way to view the website, I find myself using Safari instead of the app. But video apps like YouTube and Netflix, I find I like the apps more, because the apps show you just the videos, while the website includes links and ads that don't directly relate to the vids. Then apps like Dropbox gives me more touch optimized controls, so I can more easily use the various commands. Maybe I feel this more because of my mobility issues, but websites like Dropbox are pretty hard for me to use by touch. And then there are things like iWork and GoogleDocs, where the website is much slower and feels less stable than the apps. And of course, maps, as Black Magic pointed out above.

That's a good point, I'd rather use the youtube app than use it on the website.

 

[Patrick B]

I completely agree that there are some use cases which are significantly more appealing in an "app" form vs using the website. Netflix is a big one for me...maps is another good example.

That being said, I must be one of the strange ones, as I prefer the Youtube website to the Youtube app. The volume of alternate videos I can flip to seems far better to me in a standard browser vs the iOS app. But again, potato / potatoe.

And yes, web versions of some applications just don't work well....productivity tools like Outlook / Word / Excel / Powerpoint / Keynote / Numbers / Pages are far, far better as "apps" or stand-alone applications vs a web-browser interface. Then again, those tools began their life as stand-alone applications, and were coerced into being web-enabled applications.

Things like Trip Advisor, or the various airline apps are often inferior to the full website experience via a browser. These came from the opposite end, and were browser tools that were morphed into becoming "apps".

We could probably spend hours going back and forth with websites that transitioned into being apps successfully, and software that works well in a browser vs being an app. If the use case works for any particular person, then that's all that matters.


So, back to the Post-PC or Post Desktop discussion though, as this is worth looking into further. I'm at my desk at home or in my office probably about 12 hours per day, and I generally have both my iPad and my iPhone with me throughout most of that time as well. I also have my Android phablet (Sony Xperia Z Ultra) with me as well.

In terms of the number of hours per day that I have my iPhone with me, it comes out #1. If I leave my desk, my phone comes with me...go for dinner, my phone comes with me, etc.

That being said, when I'm at my desk all day, unless my phone rings or I get a text message from someone, I almost never use my phone. I'll glance at it during a meeting to scan any email I received, but I'll respond once I get back to my desk and have a proper keyboard in front of me. Heck, even if it's an iMessage, I'll respond using iMessage on my laptop, vs typing on my phone.

Unless I'm completely away from my desk or iPad, I rarely look anything up online via my iPhone. if necessary I will....but it's never a great experience (now, this is using Safari.....if I use Evernote as an app, then it works well).

So, raw number of hours it's in my direct possession...the iPhone wins. But for actual usage, then I'd have to say my Macbook Pro wins, followed by my iPad. I work in an office, so my results may be skewed in that direction.

I don't, however, think it's a zero-sum game. I think I'm generally connected much more regularly and often than I ever was before, so even though my iPhone isn't my primary computing device, it's always with me, so I have the ability to connect even when I'm away from my primary device.

I'm not so sure I'd call it the post-PC or post-desktop era so much as I'd call it the post "office" era (har, har). My primary computing device hasn't changed (it's still a laptop of some flavour...)....it's just that it's not my only computing device now.

As to app vs browser, that primarily depends on the device being used. iPhone....app, definitely. iPad....probably an app, but some (forums, for example) work better in Safari. Laptop....browser (or stand-alone software such as Office / iWork...that's a whole extended ballgame though).

For the SP3...part of the appeal for me is that I can choose either the browser or an app to fulfill my needs (assuming the app is available....this is the big stumbling block for MS at the moment).

In my particular case, the SP3 is replacing my laptop, and NOT my iPad Mini. So I view it as a laptop in tablet form-factor. Others obviously view it the reverse.



Patrick