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Surface Pro 3
- Thread starter yogeewan
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Alright, so I quoted you because I wanted to talk about this before I talk about the other problem.
BlueStacks is not a solution. It might help you get by, but it's not the kind of solution that Microsoft could market and that consumers will start using. It's laughable to think that the best way for a consumer to enjoy your tablet is to use competing app stores through an emulator of sorts.
Alright, now addressing apps. Giving you a list isn't going to convince you, because most of the apps I care about, you don't even know what they are or don't care most likely. Plus, I admit that I don't know what apps there are that I'm missing. My friends ask me about such and such an app, and I have no clue what they're talking about. I don't think there's ever been a time where I was like, "Oh, ya windows phone has that too!". I'm lucky to get snapchat using a 3rd party alternative called 6snap.
The real problem is this: Prioritization.
Whenever you see a commercial or an advertisement for an app, have you ever seen "available for iOS, Android or Windows"? I sure haven't. Whenever apps come out, guess who gets them first?
It's not Windows.
The app gap is a real problem, but the fact that iOS and Android receive more attention is a bigger problem. And you need to realize something else: the platform is more or less rated by the amount of good, commonly-used apps there are. People don't buy iPhones and Android devices because they want all the features it has. Most people don't even use the features. They want the apps. I'm not saying that features like continuity aren't a selling point, but the reason to get a smart phone over a flip phone is an obvious one. Not only is it somewhat embarrassing, it doesn't have the apps your friends have, and it certainly doesn't have the features you might look at either.
But carrying on, here's an example or two:
For example, during the world cup, FIFA released an official app to let their viewers follow the cup easily, increase hype, etc.
iOS and Android users were happy, but not poor Windows Phone users like me. Yes, Windows Phone is a separate device, but it's still part of the Windows family. You betcha that there was no modern app made for tablet users either.
Another example, the Youtube app. It's understandable that Google might not want to release an app on a competitor's platform, but then, why would Google let Apple use/have an official app? Microsoft tried to make their own, but Google rejected it understandably. After all, Microsoft removed ads. They quickly fixed it, but Google STILL rejected it. And to this day, if you want to watch youtube videos using the modern ui instead of your browser, you have to use a third party app. Which usually has limited features, based on the limited API that google gives developers.
So far, I've mostly talked about phone apps. Snapchat, Tinder, etc. are other apps I haven't mentioned yet by the way..
But now about actual tablet apps on Microsoft's platform?
Well, it's mostly games admittedly. Most of the games on the store are released by Microsoft or have the XBOX logo on them.
But I've also mentioned Adobe Touch. Another example of an iOS/Android exclusive. And youtube is technically also a tablet app that's missing.
Basically, though.. my point is that there aren't a lot of apps, and most of the time, Windows users miss out on that front.
If you're okay with that, then okay, but it's still stupid that the SP3 is missing almost half of its potential. That is, if you consider the modern interface intricate to the device.
To each his own.
My opinion is similar... decent laptop/ultrabook, poor tablet. The poor experience as a tablet is solely based on the lack of touch-optimized apps.
But I know that opinion is not very popular.
I don't think apps is an issue at all, but then again I'm not an app kind of guy. I honestly feel dumbed down when I use most apps, they were invented for a different time when tablets has to run a simplified OS because of battery, size, weight, fans, etc. Those times are past us now, there is no need for iOS anymore. Android is its own OS though and it's much more scalable than iOS, but Android in its current iteration is unneeded IMO as well. There is NO reason OSx cannot run on a tablet anymore, there isn't any battery, size, weight, etc constraints and Microsoft was exactly the company that showed us that with their windows tablets.
I don't think the SP3 is what's stupid, what I think is stupid is how the iOS and Android tablets of the world lost 3/4 of their potential by being stuck on "apps". Thanks, but I'll take my FULLY functional SP3 that can act as a dumb tablet with apps AND act as a full desktop class windows (or OSx by the way) tablet, and to boot can even run Android.
(PS is mentioning Adobe Touch as an advantage make sense when I can mention the full version of PhotoShop, or how Elements, Illustrator, etc etc?)
EDIT: In terms of windows phone, I don't disagree with you, now you are on a closed system with ONLY apps available to you. Your complaints are well justified there. Same thing for windows RT. Although I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want to talk about phone apps that's a different story and I would agree fully with you. But tablets are something different, especially when you have the ability to fold out a keyboard, kickstand, connect a mouse and run ANY desktop program you want.
Next quarter when the sales from the holiday season are accounted for I think MS is going to see a slight bump in market share. A lot of these cheap Atom tablets are selling for the holidays. A lot. I've also noticed Microsofts marketing has been a little more aggressive. With all these Windows 8 tablets floating around I think developers will start paying more attention to tablet apps on the Windows side of things.
That's what it took for android, a flood of cheap but decent quality devices to hit the market. Android was in the same boat as MS little over 4 years ago. App stores then weren't really comparable with iOS despite Android's market share.
That's what it took for android, a flood of cheap but decent quality devices to hit the market. Android was in the same boat as MS little over 4 years ago. App stores then weren't really comparable with iOS despite Android's market share.
I wanted to love my SP3. I really did. But all it has done is reinforce my position that I am a Mac and not a PC.
The problem is, without touch optimised apps/programs, using the Surface as a tablet is frustrating. You either have to use a finger tip to touch a target designed for a mouse pointer. So as a tablet in "metro mode" it is lacking in apps although those apps are at least optimised to be used on a tablet. As a laptop it functions better but not as well as a fully fledged laptop (type cover trackpad is a little twitchy and a bit too much flex in the keyboard) also obscures bottom of screen when you want to swipe up.
It is a fantastic looking and well made bit of hardware but its size, weight and lack of touch optimised programs are a compromise as a tablet and the multi-step setup of "fold out type cover, open kickstand, adjust" with a keyboard that isn't as good as on a dedicated laptop are compromise as a laptop.
There is no smooth transition between metro/desktop, tablet/laptop - in both use of the hardware and the inherent bipolar nature of 8.1.
They are clearly defined boundaries meaning having to switch your method of use depending on which app/program you're using which feels clumsy. Add the extra input method of the pen and you find you soon run out of hands and it becomes unclear how exactly you should be interacting with the device. Don't get me wrong - the pen was fantastic. In isolation it worked better than any stylus I had used before but outside of One Note, the justification for it seemed unclear.
I found myself using the SP3 almost solely as a laptop but it never replaced my Air as a tablet. The SP3 is going and the laptop hole looks Macbook Air shaped.
(P.S. if anyone wants a mint condition SP3 i5 4GB 128GB in the UK, let me know)
It's really hard for me to take you seriously when you stake out this position. There are a ton of great reasons for stand-alone apps to exist. If the Surface is going to actually be a dual-purpose device, and not a glorified laptop, it needs to have a real touch interface. The desktop doesn't even come close to cutting it. The battery suck that applications on the desktop are prone to doesn't cut it. The lack of a system wide control and notification system from the desktop side doesn't cut it. All of these are problems that have been solved elegantly by the competing platforms and their 'dumbed down' apps. Put in the context of the fact that a streaming music player in a web browser can't use system-wide controls, can't show me what is playing on the lock screen, let alone let me navigate it, can't tie into a simple wireless streaming protocol without add-on hacks, it's those 'dumb' apps that are looking pretty smart.
What Apple did that they get far too little credit for today, is to create a development platform for iOS from the very beginning that forced developers to adhere to a certain set of rules that made the behavior, and in many cases, even the look, consistent for the end user. This was huge. Windows Mobile before it was a mishmash of whatever design element the programmer liked, using whatever controls he could think to tie into. Nothing behaved predictably. This same legacy haunts Windows today. See my earlier post about the fact that Chrome doesn't have a keyboard with auto-correct or even pinch to zoom. That stuff needs to be set at the system level because as it is, the user experience is still defined by the individual developer which inevitably means you are never going to have consistency.
It's fine that you don't see the value in them. But it's an extremely narrow viewpoint that is missing a wide sphere of what devices can do for us and how they can operate for us in a different and better way. There is no inherent reason that this new way needs to be less powerful either. As I've already demonstrated, there are numerous ways where it is already more powerful than the old system - and we are in the infancy of a new era of software development. All the big money and therefore talent in software today is in apps. It's certainly not because those people are dumb. Apple set this in motion by developing an entirely new computing platform and wisely took the conservative route of not trying to make it compete on feature parity from day 1. It would have been a nightmare to develop had they done so, and frankly, they had no idea how people were going to end up using these devices. By waiting and developing these platforms piecemeal, Apple and Google have developed the next-generation software platforms that will define how computing is done in the decades to come.
A lot of this discussion seems to have devolved into a stand about how any one particular person's use-case is better suited / ill-suited to the SP3, and therefore the "potential" for the device is being missed.
Use cases are the ultimate defining factor....it either suits your existing (and potential) use cases, or it doesn't. This is defined on a user by user basis, so what works for some of us may not work for others.
I originally bought my SP3 (i7 /512GB) as a replacement for my retina MBP, with the idea that I could travel lightly with my SP3, a retina iPad Mini, and my iPhone 5s. In reality that worked for the most part, but I found that I had little use for the iPad Mini, since the type of tools that I use on a regular basis were more desktop applications and less touch "apps". And of the touch "apps" that I used regularly, I had existing ones on the SP3 that suited me (MUI IE, TripAdvisor, Evernote, Skype, various news feeds, Box, Dropbox, Zinio, Code Writer, Sketchbook, Flipboard et al). If I needed to access Youtube, I've found that the MUI IE browser works perfectly fine for accessing Youtube (and virtually most other websites I go to regularly).
For everything else (MS Office in particular), I use the desktop versions.
Now, I don't use the Type Cover 2 keyboard / trackpad, as I felt the keyboard, although functional, was just too flimsy feeling for my tastes. And the trackpad is tolerable at best....
So I mostly use an external BT keyboard (Lenovo BT keyboard with trackpoint) when I'm in "laptop" mode, and the on-screen keyboard when I'm in tablet mode.
I found myself hardly using my iPad Mini any longer, but I thought I'd try an experiment to see if I could survive a full work day (in my actual office) using just one device (plus a smartphone). On the iPad I have access to email, and with Office 365 I could perform some edits to documents etc. But we use Cisco's WebEx for conferencing, and I couldn't schedule a meeting with the WebEx information embedded in the meeting invite via the iPad mail client. I can with Outlook. I also couldn't be the host or alternate host (at that time) on WebEx with the iPad, though I could on the SP3. The other challenge is that you can't really multi-task on the iPad like you can on the SP3. If I wanted to use an IM/ Chat client, then that dominated the interface, and I was unable to both "chat" with someone AND simultaneously look up something in email, or on the web etc. To me, this lack of ability to multitask in parallel, in real-time is the big downside.
In summary, I was functional, but not fully productive on the iPad.
So I brought just my SP3 to the office. I can fully schedule meetings with WebEx, I can chat in a small window while still being able to search for relevant information in another window / application / browser. I can even do that from the Modern UI (so even touch enabled apps allowed me to be fully productive....not stuck with the classic desktop).
As a result, I sold my iPad Mini since I find the touch / tablet aspect of the SP3 to suit me just fine; in my particular case, there are no "apps" that I'm missing (any functionality that I require I can get via a browser or via desktop apps). Again, this is down to my particular use case, vs someone else's.
With my SP3, I can travel with essentially a single device (in reality, my iPhone goes with me everywhere as well) that covers both my tablet requirements AND my laptop requirements.
Obviously it depends highly upon what "apps" or "applications" that each person tends to use. As a tablet it obviously has a less equipped "app" store when compared with Google Play or iTunes App stores. As an overall application ecosystem, it has far greater software support than both combined (some touch enabled....much of it obviously not touch enabled at all).
It still remains the only device that spans both worlds successfully thus far (even if your opinion of success is tempered on apps vs applications).
If I had to choose just one "computing" device between my SP3, my retina MBP, and an iPad (Air, Air 2, Mini, you name it), then I'd pick the SP3. The SP3 is the one device that I can use in the boardroom, the bathroom, the bedroom and my office. It suits every situation....and all I need to do is change which accessories I use for any particular use case (mouse, keyboard, pen, finger, external monitor et al).
Everyone has their own requirements. I would love to hear about some actual, hard and fast requirements that the iPad CAN do that the SP3 CANNOT. I'm not saying they don't exist or that they're not important (for example, I don't use Spotify, so it means nothing to me....but it doesn't mean that it's not a viable use case for someone).
It's just that for me, knowledge worker / tech worker, road-warrior, the SP3 suits my needs perfectly. And I'm an Apple fanatic.
Patrick
Use cases are the ultimate defining factor....it either suits your existing (and potential) use cases, or it doesn't. This is defined on a user by user basis, so what works for some of us may not work for others.
I originally bought my SP3 (i7 /512GB) as a replacement for my retina MBP, with the idea that I could travel lightly with my SP3, a retina iPad Mini, and my iPhone 5s. In reality that worked for the most part, but I found that I had little use for the iPad Mini, since the type of tools that I use on a regular basis were more desktop applications and less touch "apps". And of the touch "apps" that I used regularly, I had existing ones on the SP3 that suited me (MUI IE, TripAdvisor, Evernote, Skype, various news feeds, Box, Dropbox, Zinio, Code Writer, Sketchbook, Flipboard et al). If I needed to access Youtube, I've found that the MUI IE browser works perfectly fine for accessing Youtube (and virtually most other websites I go to regularly).
For everything else (MS Office in particular), I use the desktop versions.
Now, I don't use the Type Cover 2 keyboard / trackpad, as I felt the keyboard, although functional, was just too flimsy feeling for my tastes. And the trackpad is tolerable at best....
So I mostly use an external BT keyboard (Lenovo BT keyboard with trackpoint) when I'm in "laptop" mode, and the on-screen keyboard when I'm in tablet mode.
I found myself hardly using my iPad Mini any longer, but I thought I'd try an experiment to see if I could survive a full work day (in my actual office) using just one device (plus a smartphone). On the iPad I have access to email, and with Office 365 I could perform some edits to documents etc. But we use Cisco's WebEx for conferencing, and I couldn't schedule a meeting with the WebEx information embedded in the meeting invite via the iPad mail client. I can with Outlook. I also couldn't be the host or alternate host (at that time) on WebEx with the iPad, though I could on the SP3. The other challenge is that you can't really multi-task on the iPad like you can on the SP3. If I wanted to use an IM/ Chat client, then that dominated the interface, and I was unable to both "chat" with someone AND simultaneously look up something in email, or on the web etc. To me, this lack of ability to multitask in parallel, in real-time is the big downside.
In summary, I was functional, but not fully productive on the iPad.
So I brought just my SP3 to the office. I can fully schedule meetings with WebEx, I can chat in a small window while still being able to search for relevant information in another window / application / browser. I can even do that from the Modern UI (so even touch enabled apps allowed me to be fully productive....not stuck with the classic desktop).
As a result, I sold my iPad Mini since I find the touch / tablet aspect of the SP3 to suit me just fine; in my particular case, there are no "apps" that I'm missing (any functionality that I require I can get via a browser or via desktop apps). Again, this is down to my particular use case, vs someone else's.
With my SP3, I can travel with essentially a single device (in reality, my iPhone goes with me everywhere as well) that covers both my tablet requirements AND my laptop requirements.
Obviously it depends highly upon what "apps" or "applications" that each person tends to use. As a tablet it obviously has a less equipped "app" store when compared with Google Play or iTunes App stores. As an overall application ecosystem, it has far greater software support than both combined (some touch enabled....much of it obviously not touch enabled at all).
It still remains the only device that spans both worlds successfully thus far (even if your opinion of success is tempered on apps vs applications).
If I had to choose just one "computing" device between my SP3, my retina MBP, and an iPad (Air, Air 2, Mini, you name it), then I'd pick the SP3. The SP3 is the one device that I can use in the boardroom, the bathroom, the bedroom and my office. It suits every situation....and all I need to do is change which accessories I use for any particular use case (mouse, keyboard, pen, finger, external monitor et al).
Everyone has their own requirements. I would love to hear about some actual, hard and fast requirements that the iPad CAN do that the SP3 CANNOT. I'm not saying they don't exist or that they're not important (for example, I don't use Spotify, so it means nothing to me....but it doesn't mean that it's not a viable use case for someone).
It's just that for me, knowledge worker / tech worker, road-warrior, the SP3 suits my needs perfectly. And I'm an Apple fanatic.
Patrick
I don't think you are reading very closely at what I'm saying. I'm saying that 1) apps are overly simplified, I'm not saying we shouldn't have apps but many in their current iteration are just too watered down. 2) Many "desktop" apps are morphing into much more touchable solutions, I specifically mentioned Microsoft Office and Photoshop as 2 VERY big ones that are going this route. The time to ONLY have apps is past us as people realize they need more than a consumption device, or at least wonder why they don't have the option to have both. Hardware has caught up where we can have a full OS on a tablet with no sacrifices. I agree with you wholeheartedly that software has NOT caught up yet, but it's really making big strides and I'm excited to see what Windows 10 offers.
Once again this is personal preference, it's just the way I use my device. But not only do I want my device to morph from laptop to tablet at will, I ALSO want my apps/programs etc to morph at will, I don't want to be stuck down with a watered down app, and yes I also don't want to be stuck with only a desktop program either hence my partial agreement with some of your and others points.
Stop right there. That's where you are mistaken, I will not let this pass.
I'm talking about the device by design, and how it's supposed to be enjoyed. You can do whatever you want with it, sure enough, but it's a tablet and a laptop. That's Microsoft's words, not mine.
I've already outlined why it fails as a tablet. You can disagree with me on some points, but you can not disagree that the app store is pathetic. I believe the app store attributes much to its failure as a tablet, and ultimately reflects that fact.
So what is left, then, if it's just a glorified touchscreen ultrabook? I guess it has a pen. And it's a bit easier to use as a touch-device.
But I stick to my argument that there is very little in the tablet area, so its not worth it for the tablet.
So, then, is it worth it as a laptop either?
Also, you make it sound like my specified use-case is unique to me. That's ridiculous. I don't even own this particular device, and thank goodness I don't.
Sounds like opinion based on your uses and needs to me. It's ok to have an opinion, that's what we are all here for. The SP3 has been BY FAR the best tablet I've ever owned. For me it's not even a comparison, I couldn't see ever going backwards and buying a non-windows tablet ever again, unless it was OSx of course. As for the app store, it's not there yet but there are various threads floating around where complainers can't even figure out which app it is they are missing from windows.
It's an opinion, and not really an opinion.
My opinion is that it fails as a tablet.
The fact is that Microsoft intended it as both.
The fact is that the App Store is pitiful. You wouldn't know much about this.
My opinion is that there's not much besides the laptop.
The fact is that, as a laptop, it's pretty okay in specs. Though I would argue that, compared to other ultrabooks in similar price ranges, it's not as good.
Sounds like an opinion to me..
Sp3 doesn't have whatever niche iPad apps you are looking for (that shall remain unnamed) , so you call it a pitiful tablet for your use case
Sp3 doesn't have whatever niche iPad apps you are looking for (that shall remain unnamed) , so you call it a pitiful tablet for your use case
I don't think there is anything misleading about Microsoft's claim that it can be both a tablet and a laptop. It clearly fails YOU as a tablet, but that doesn't mean it fails everyone. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Windows App store selection is lacking. Where we disagree is how much that really matters. Clearly more for some than others, but it's not the same for all.
Obviously the SP3 should not be on your shortlist if you're looking for a tablet with the largest selection of touch optimized apps. But that doesn't necessarily compromise the tablet experience for everyone since it still very much excels as a large(er) screen for consuming content while not chained to a keyboard - things like reading, watching video, checking email, surfing the web etc. That superior experience (compared to a traditional laptop, desktop or smartphone) is a primary reason many get a tablet like the iPad in the first place. It's not that apps don't add value at the margin - especially given the limitations of a tablet only device, but many apps just end up being either a redundant experience to what many already have on their phone, or end up a compromised version of a full desktop application.
I find the SP3 offers the best of both worlds - a laptop for when full desktop applications are required, and a tablet for when it's time to kick back on the couch - all in one convenient device.
You need to brush up on how opinions and facts differ. I think everyone agrees that the Microsoft store offerings are lackluster and that's the sticking point for you. But that's only your opinion. Other opinions find the opposite to be true and find value in the use of full desktop apps. Again, still opinion. You also seem to gloss over the whole "pen" thing as if it's just some throw away accessory. In my opinion, a legitimate stylus is an integral part of the tablet experience. I love my mini, but relying on finger input only is quite limiting. I'd hope to see wacom support or similar in the iPad pro or whatever it'll be called.
But since you're so determined to judge the hardware simply on apps, would you have said the initial iPad was a failure as a tablet due to the fact that we were initially stuck with a limited app selection/poorly scaled iPhone apps?
I don't disagree with you. While I think the SP3 is great, I won't go far as to call it the perfect work tablet. That fabled tablet will end up being a meeting between the SPs and the iPad. It'll have the power, the stylus, and the software of former, with the touch-centric design of the latter.
Touch based professional software isn't a contradiction in terms. It's what the whole tablet scene should be striving for.
Hmm... I guess you guys can't read? I clearly stated that what was and wasn't my opinion?
"The App store is pitiful.". OPINION
"You wouldn't know much about this.". Unsubstantiated statement
"compared to other ultrabooks in similar price ranges, it's not as good.". OPINION
Just clearing that up. Like I said stating your opinion is great, and that's what the forums are about. But they are not fact and not universally accepted opinions either. I have yet to find an ultrabook which would hold a candle to the SP3, but once again that's just my opinion.
BTW I know it's been asked before, but would you list exactly which apps you are missing from windows?
Reprimanding me for my opinion and use cases already? You're pretty full of yourself.
I enjoy my SP3 just perfectly, and interestingly enough, when I purchased it, it was with the INTENTION of having it replace my laptop (retina MBP), but instead I found it suited my purposes better as a TABLET.
I happen to also benefit from the fact that I can fully utilize it as a laptop as well, though I'll admit I still have my rMBP as well.
See, the primary problem is, you're conflating your opinions with fact. Facts are indisputable...opinions are like....well....you know the rest of that line.
The app store is pathetic IN YOUR USE CASE. In mine it suits my needs, as I have access to the MUI apps that I need / want. Anything more in terms of apps and it does me little good, even though in your case you don't have access to the apps that you need / want. Fair enough, as each person has what suits them.
Let me correct that for you...."there is very little in the tablet area FOR YOU...."
For many of us, the enhanced capabilities it brings as a tablet / laptop combination are exactly worth it. You have quite the ego though, as you're attributing your opinion as fact that the rest of us should be adhering to.
As the rest of my post demonstrated, I highlighted specific examples of how my iPad was insufficient as a single, office / work productivity device, and as such, the SP3 was better suited for me. As a work tool I can also use a touchscreen laptop....
But I can also use it in bed for watching NHL games, or surfing the web, or using any MUI app that I want in pure tablet form, all of which are more challenging with a bulkier, heavier touchscreen laptop.
And I also have no compatibility issues with browsing the web either, simply due to the prevalence of Flash (as much as I hate it) that still exists. I can show you screenshots of the Air Canada website from just this past summer that would not render on my iPad Mini (I got the screen that stated "This website is not designed for viewing on mobile devices").
Absolutely, though I'll admit I've kept my rMBP....partly because it's a highly capable machine that isn't worth it for me to sell, and partly because I occasionally like to have a 15" display vs a 12" display. I also have some applications that are OSX only, so those obviously are a little challenging to run on the SP3 (though to be honest I have thought about picking up a second one just to make it into a Hackintosh).
Actually, that's the very definition of a specific use-case. You've highlighted in very non-specific terms how the use-case for the SP3 is flawed by design, yet you neither own the device, nor can you demonstrate to anyone WHAT your use-case is that makes it such a flawed device.
If you could actually provide specific examples of HOW it's a flawed design and what tasks you simply CANNOT accomplish with the SP3, then you'd at least demonstrate some level of credibility.
It's not a matter of how valid your use-case is to anyone else....your use-case is yours by it's very nature, so if there is ONE specific app that you need to be in the Modern UI, then hey, you have a valid use-case and a valid short-coming of the device. Just as I demonstrated a valid use-case that precludes me from using an iPad as my primary and sole computing device (a role which the SP3 fulfills for me very successfully).
For me, the iPad is a great second device when paired up with a laptop (of any flavour). The beauty of the SP3 is that I have no requirement to have a second device with me.
Pickup trucks, SUVs and sports cars all get someone from point A to point B. Not everyone chooses the same type of vehicle for their daily driver.
Patrick
I think the point is that both systems are eventually moving towards the same goal - apps or programs or whatever you'd like to call them that are powerful and touch friendly. iOS and Android created a new model that was simplistic at first, but since they are touch-centric from their foundations, are easier to manage on pure touch devices. They already have many features you can't find on traditional desktop programs and will eventually have feature parity. Microsoft, by necessity, is trying to build the touch system on top of their traditional Desktop, but this is a challenge. They are making strides, but for someone used to using an iPad or Android tablet, the touch targets are still too small, the responsiveness isn't there, and there is a general lack of a lot of the shortcuts you've come to expect on those touch-first devices. Plus the lack of a tie into any kind of centralized notification and control system as I've expressed above.
I know this isn't directed at me, but I can answer as a heavy iPad user once again trying to find out what the Surface Pro excels at for me.
- Music apps. This is a big one. Yes, I can play Pandora, Spotify, and Beats music through the web browser. But the experience is nowhere near as fluid as on iOS which has an entire, system wide way of handling music playback that any developer can tie into. I can control the music from the lock screen. I can seamlessly send music to wireless devices in my house. I can control the playback via push-button on my headphones. And I have interfaces that are truly touch based, and are optimized for battery life.
- Magazines. All of my subscriptions are now digital. Of the 8-10 magazines I read regularly, only 2 of those are available on the Windows Store, and even those are sub-par compared to the iOS counterparts. My newspaper of choice also has an app which automatically stores the content locally, meaning I have an entire day's paper available for me to read offline when I fly, which is frequently. The website can't do this on Windows.
- Weather apps. Yes, Windows has a few of these, but not many, and not the good ones. Dark Sky on iOS is eerily good at notifying me on my iOS devices when rain or snow is about to start.
- Mail. No Gmail app on Windows, and the only way to access it is through Chrome on the Desktop which is truly sub-par.
- Password Safe. On Windows I have to use the standard Windows program, which is fine, but difficult to use via touch. On iOS I can unlock my safe with my fingerprint. Even before that was possible I could unlock via facial recognition with the camera which was still easier than typing. Can't do this on Windows, and the Surface camera's aren't good enough anyways.
- A choice of Note taking apps. I love OneNote. I've pushed it for years in our organization and it is the collaboration tool of our choice. But it's not everything. I have other note-taking apps on iOS that I prefer for some things. I'd love if Goodnotes from iOS was available on the Surface to use the great stylus, but it's not.
- Misc. I have apps that manage my lists, remote apps to control our TV and stereos, banking apps that are simple and easy to do the things you want to do, and accessible via TouchID. These are all things you can do through a web browser, but are far less convenient than opening an app with a single touch, or even accessing them through the universal notification menu at the top of iOS.
- Even Office, yes, Office. It's not the full experience, yet, on iOS, but Microsoft has done a fabulous job of making their products extremely usable via touch on iOS. I actually think the UI for OneNote on iOS is better than that in the Windows Touch version. I just wish they'd support handwriting!
So this is where I stand with the Surface Pro. I think it makes a decent laptop replacement for someone who also wants stylus support. I think outside of those two elements, however, the general tablet functionality is still woefully short compared to the competition.
The flawed hardware design:
1) Vs Laptop:
To start work on a laptop you lift up the screen and you're good to go. SP3 requires folding out the kickstand and adjusting to the right angle and folding out the keyboard. Maybe small but an undeniable fact that it is not as simple as a laptop.
While ok on a lap or other uneven surface, it does not sit as well as a laptop.
2) Vs tablet:
SP3 is too large to hold in landscape and type with thumbs.
It is too heavy to grip at the edge and hold for any length of time.
The battery although good for a laptop is noticeably shorter than that of most tablets and waking from sleep takes longer than an iOS or Android device.
Flawed software design (mostly 8.1 issues rather than SP3 specific):
Throwing you back into the Metro (I'm still going to call it metro) start screen every time you want to see a list of programs or recently opened docs is a pain and is not the answer to merging touch and desktop. It isn't a case of not liking change - I'm not a fan of windows at all but the start menu in all other iterations was far more convenient.
Duplication of MS apps/programs across desktop and metro - there are two calculators, mail and outlook require input of accounts separately, multiple media apps (XBox music, videos, WMP, WMC (that you have to buy!!)), Touch internet explorer is as hobbled as ios when it comes to web video - requiring a switch to desktop IE (but so few reputable websites I visit now use flash over HTML5) - these points make the SP3 feel like two separate devices rather than the perfect hybrid.
Settings menu after settings menu after settings menu. To set the backgrounds I have to to access different settings menus - I can set the lock screen from viewing any photo, set the start background from the charms bar then the desktop from display settings.
If you are using the SP3 as a tablet then want to use the desktop you are confronted with a UI not suited to touch so you either have to attach the type cover, use the pen or try to use your finger (with the high resolution, targets such as "X" or minimise are hard to single out with a finger tip.
If you want to use the on screen keyboard in desktop it covers what you are working on whereas iOS Safari will move everything up into the unobscured part of the screen.
If you are using SP3 as a laptop with the type cover it is hard to swipe up from the bottom and using the mouse to carry out touch gestures is clumsy.
I'd say they are some pretty objective points to highlight that while it functions as a laptop/tablet hybrid better than any other device, it is neither a good laptop nor tablet due partly to design but mostly due to Windows 8.1.
Gotcha, the ipad is a better choice for you. Its a huge compromise for me, stylus, MS office, OneNote, I could list out dozens of compromises but that's what I need, but these in part are what make the sp3 a MUCH superior tablet for my needs.
Btw you can add Gmail accounts to the windows outlook app. Have you tried that zinio app for magazines? Awesome app and has most if not all magazines. Music apps I agree with you, but I play all my music on my phone, although there are some great music apps on windows.
I think my main point is that your uses are pretty specific and by far not necessarily universal, and can be adjusted to the windows platform.
As for app/program convergence ill put my money on MS. You still have the desktop which will NEVER go away, their is still a need to hunker down with a mouse that will not go away soon, yet when its time to go into tablet mode the sp3 is ready to go. I don't find touch optimized desktop programs hard to use and certainly don't see a lack of responsiveness, try desktop OneNote or PhotoShop for 2 good examples.
Also notifications are coming in windows 10 as well as Cortana.
1) stop it, holding a laptop with 2 hands, one to hold the bottom the other to flip the top isn't any easier than simply folding the sp3 flap down.
2) I never understood this. My 110 lb wife has no issues using my sp3. But I also never understood the use, do you really hold up your tablet like that for extended periods? I'd think the limiting factor would be the weight of your arms which are much heavier than the tablet.
Flawed software, yes to a certain extent but this is massively improving. You make some great points though, hopefully MS will continue to streamline this. I have demoed windows 10 and it makes tremendous strides to fix these issues, and it hasn't even implemented most of the touch centric changes yet.
All the desktop complaints are somewhat valid, BUT the take home here is that I have the choice to use the desktop. Flawed or not I don't have that choice on a non windows tablet. That is very powerful. Although your keyboard/safari complaint is unfounded as modern IE moves out of the way perfectly with the onscreen keyboard, in fact that's how I'm typing right now laying in bed.
Swipe up with keyboard open is a valid concern, its a hardware/design flaw, but once again at least I have a hardware keyboard.
Its still an incredible hybrid, and that's the entire point of it. As a laptop you have to take account its strengths. Versus a MBA it has the touch screen and stylus support for example, making it a superior laptop DEPENDING ON THE USERS NEEDS. Of course this is highly subjective. But it not being a good laptop or tablet is also HIGHLY subjective, its been the most incredible laptop and tablet I've ever owned, its not even close.
^
This...
Yes...it has it's fault (all software based in most folk's opinions), but I think saying it "fails" as a tablet is a bit harsh.
It will NEVER be as good as a dedicated tablet like the iPad, but it certainly IS a tablet and functions as one with apps OR desktop programs. The iPad can't do that AT ALL!
Microsoft didn't promise me the world in their ads. I wanted something to replace my laptop that I could also use as a tablet (or just even a touchscreen) when I wanted to.
This is NOT a phone where having apps optimized for both touch and size are of utmost importance. The app gap that is a serious issue for most on Windows Phone is not an issue on a device that mainly functions as a laptop replacement.
I've been running Windows 10 for a couple of months and it shows that Microsoft has recognized this...it is a laptop more than a tablet. Although, I can't wait to see what they release in late January when the touch-specific features are added in and what that does to the "tiles" side of the software.
And let me be clear about another thing...Microsoft developing their "touch" versions of Office and other apps for iOS first is smart. They simply have continued to grab the market share they needed from the vast majority of people using iOS....but don't think for a second that those apps are the same thing as "touch" Microsoft Office for the Surface. The optimized touch version of Office being developed for "PC" is the fully featured version and not the watered down one available for iOS. You cannot compare the two or wonder "why did they offer it on Apple first?" It was NEVER going to be offered on Surface...it will not be an "app," it will be a "fully featured program."
This...
Yes...it has it's fault (all software based in most folk's opinions), but I think saying it "fails" as a tablet is a bit harsh.
It will NEVER be as good as a dedicated tablet like the iPad, but it certainly IS a tablet and functions as one with apps OR desktop programs. The iPad can't do that AT ALL!
Microsoft didn't promise me the world in their ads. I wanted something to replace my laptop that I could also use as a tablet (or just even a touchscreen) when I wanted to.
This is NOT a phone where having apps optimized for both touch and size are of utmost importance. The app gap that is a serious issue for most on Windows Phone is not an issue on a device that mainly functions as a laptop replacement.
I've been running Windows 10 for a couple of months and it shows that Microsoft has recognized this...it is a laptop more than a tablet. Although, I can't wait to see what they release in late January when the touch-specific features are added in and what that does to the "tiles" side of the software.
And let me be clear about another thing...Microsoft developing their "touch" versions of Office and other apps for iOS first is smart. They simply have continued to grab the market share they needed from the vast majority of people using iOS....but don't think for a second that those apps are the same thing as "touch" Microsoft Office for the Surface. The optimized touch version of Office being developed for "PC" is the fully featured version and not the watered down one available for iOS. You cannot compare the two or wonder "why did they offer it on Apple first?" It was NEVER going to be offered on Surface...it will not be an "app," it will be a "fully featured program."
I think its a knee jerk reaction. Some people seemed to take the MS making a tablet rather personally. I think overall its a good product and I'm seriously thinking of taking the plunge again. If I buy one now, I get a free case and a 100 dollar coupon code that will go towards a dock.
If I wait until this summer, then I lose out on those promotions.