The 2023-2024 Football Thread

[Lord Blackadder]

And shouldn’t happen. If this incorrect decision had been against Luton or Burnley it wouldn’t even be news. Klopp demanding the rules be changed to suit him again I’m afraid. Get over it and move on….

Oh, it would be news - just not as box office.

'Get over it and move on' is what skeptics of VAR have been saying all along...refs make mistakes and people should see that as part of the game. We don't need endless slo-mo rehashing of every controversial play. But of course they were not listened to. And now we have this unsatisfactory system that doesn't work properly and occasionally fails to do the one thing (get the 'big' calls right) it was designed to do. It has been exposed as just another form of human reffing, and not necessarily an improvement. I would be furious over Diaz's disallowed goal in the pre-VAR era. But it's much easier to accept a linesman's mistake at full-speed than this VAR-induced chaos.

And no, Liverpool are not going to get a replay or points reassignment or anything. I disagree with all of that.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Oh, it would be news - just not as box office.

'Get over it and move on' is what skeptics of VAR have been saying all along...refs make mistakes and people should see that as part of the game. We don't need endless slo-mo rehashing of every controversial play. But of course they were not listened to. And now we have this unsatisfactory system that doesn't work properly and occasionally fails to do the one thing (get the 'big' calls right) it was designed to do. It has been exposed as just another form of human reffing, and not necessarily an improvement. I would be furious over Diaz's disallowed goal in the pre-VAR era. But it's much easier to accept a linesman's mistake at full-speed than this VAR-induced chaos.

And no, Liverpool are not going to get a replay or points reassignment or anything. I disagree with all of that.

Exactly on the replay front. I mean imagine Spurs had to replay this game and the Chelsea one. That puts them at a disadvantage as they have two extra games to play!
Whatever the system bad results will always happen. It’s part of the game. Sometimes they go for your side. Sometimes they go against you.
You just accept and move on.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

A replay won't happen in my opinion because there have been referee injustices in football ever since the games invention and not once has a game been replayed because of it. There has only been one game replayed due to a 'misunderstanding' and that was an FA cup game featuring Arsenal.

No I agree. I do think that declaring the game void and awarding both teams a point would be fairer than how things currently stand. No need for a replay.

And shouldn’t happen. If this incorrect decision had been against Luton or Burnley it wouldn’t even be news. Klopp demanding the rules be changed to suit him again I’m afraid. Get over it and move on….

Nonsense. Klopp isn't demanding any rules be changed at all. And the situation would remain regardless of whichever teams were involved.

Ultimately, there are people and companies making money off of VAR, and there is an obligation to get things right and follow correct procedure. This didn't happen, and the general standard of officiating in this game was way below anything acceptable or even excusable. The audio that has ben released reveals just what a massive cock up this was, and just how unprofessional those who are paid to do one job (which they failed to do in spite of certain protocols and having technology at their disposal) actually were. The sport relies on all its elements to work properly. One of those key elements failed, and this caused an unfair disadvantage for one team; it wasn't just the offside, there was a failure of officiating throughout the entire game. It was an absolute disgrace.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No I agree. I do think that declaring the game void and awarding both teams a point would be fairer than how things currently stand. No need for a replay.


Nonsense. Klopp isn't demanding any rules be changed at all. And the situation would remain regardless of whichever teams were involved.

He’s asking for a replay. That’s a rule change as far as I’m concerned. I think the points should stay as they are. You can’t turn back time. If the goal stood, would Spurs have pushed on and scone more, or one less? No one knows.
Like I said time to move on.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

He’s asking for a replay. That’s a rule change as far as I’m concerned

It's not. In fact, the rules actually allow for a replay for all sorts of reasons. Fielding ineligible players, for one, or perhaps when a match has to be abandoned for whatever reason; the game between Leyton Orient and Lincoln last night was abandoned due to a medical emergency (in which a fan later very sadly died). It's at the discretion of the governing body as to wether or not a match can be replayed. So very much in the rules. Ergo, Klopp isn't asking for any rule change at all.

Like I said time to move on.

As I said; it's not going away any time soon. You'd be of a completely different opinion if it were your team affected. And you know that...

 

[Apple fanboy]

It's not. In fact, the rules actually allow for a replay for all sorts of reasons. Fielding ineligible players, for one, or perhaps when a match has to be abandoned for whatever reason; the game between Leyton Orient and Lincoln last night was abandoned due to a medical emergency (in which a fan later very sadly died). It's at the discretion of the governing body as to wether or not a match can be replayed. So very much in the rules. Ergo, Klopp isn't asking for any rule change at all.


As I said; it's not going away any time soon. You'd be of a completely different opinion if it were your team affected. And you know that...

Nope. I’d accept it as part of the game and move on. It’s happened loads of times to us as a club. You have a bit of a moan then move on with life.
You don’t make ridiculous demands that the game be replayed. The example you cited about Leyton Orient is a completely different scenario.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

He’s asking for a replay. That’s a rule change as far as I’m concerned. I think the points should stay as they are. You can’t turn back time. If the goal stood, would Spurs have pushed on and scone more, or one less? No one knows.
Like I said time to move on.

The call irrevocably changed (ruined, for me) the match. It’s impossible to fairly, retroactively, change the result.

The only thing I would say is that if Spurs finish ahead of Liverpool by a margin equivalent to this match’s points, they are entitled to claim damages for any missed TV money or European qualification. Because that can be quantified and retroactively awarded.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

You don’t make ridiculous demands that the game be replayed. The example you cited about Leyton Orient is a completely different scenario.

Sure, but it's not a 'ridiculous demand' that a game be replayed due to a failure of officiation resulting in one team suffering an unfair disadvantage. It wasn't one mistake; it was a catalogue of errors. Klopp knows full well the game won't be replayed; he's just venting to make a point. Which is fair enough. But I'm glad we've ascertained that he's not asking for a rule change. Because that was a ridiculous and false notion to begin with.

The only thing I would say is that if Spurs finish ahead of Liverpool by a margin equivalent to this match’s points, they are entitled to claim damages for any missed TV money or European qualification. Because that can be quantified and retroactively awarded.

I can't see how a points adjustment (1 point each) wouldn't be a reasonable compromise tbh. Doesn't affect any other clubs, and would go some way to rectifying the errors made. I know this won't happen either, but I do think that would be a pretty fair way to conclude this farce.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I can't see how a points adjustment (1 point each) wouldn't be a reasonable compromise tbh. Doesn't affect any other clubs, and would go some way to rectifying the errors made. I know this won't happen either, but I do think that would be a pretty fair way to conclude this farce.

It is a reasonable idea in principle. But do you really think the FA is capable of creating and executing a fair and reliable system of retroactive point reassignment for specific types of blown calls? I don’t. It will just be another layer of human decision making that has the potential to cause more trouble.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

But do you really think the FA is capable of creating and executing a fair and reliable system of retroactive point reassignment for specific types of blown calls?

No.

 

[timber]

Almost everyone has been on the short end of the stick of a really bad decision.

Since watching football since perhaps the mid 80s I have yet to see a single time any sort of compensation or correctional measure was taken.

In a more or less polite way you simply are expected to suck it up.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Almost everyone has been on the short end of the stick of a really bad decision.

Since watching football since perhaps the mid 80s I have yet to see a single time any sort of compensation or correctional measure was taken.

In a more or less polite way you simply are expected to suck it up.

Exactly. That’s the only way. Moan about it (when it goes against you), don’t see it when it goes for you!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

In a more or less polite way you simply are expected to suck it up.

The problem is, fans are fickle and, dare I say it, often hypocrites.

The people screaming below the line to ‘suck it up’ were the same people later screaming for the introduction of VAR when calls went against them. And now some of those same people are now screaming about how useless VAR is.

The lesson here is to ignore the screaming…

 

[Scepticalscribe]

There is also another consideration (in such a discussion) which is the (dubious idea) of the introduction of the principle of replaying a match if egregious errors have cost a team.

Given the very high (and costly) stakes - and the extraordinary benefits that accrue to victory (not to mention the significant costs of defeat), introducing such a principle (replaying games in the event of admitted errors) will serve to potentially undermine any and all decisions of referees (and linesmen); this is because the prizes for challenging everything remotely debatable will be simply too great for a manager (and team, and worse, vociferous and furious fans) to be able to resist that temptation.

Who would want to be a referee?

In fact, I must say that I deeply dislike this intimidating practice of a team surrounding a referee, invading his personal space, shouting in his face, when a decision fails to go their way; instead, - I, personally, would far prefer to see a system evolve (or develop) whereby the team captain is permitted to express dissent or articulate the concerns of the team.

Moreover, if we are discussing rules changes, then, the area of fouls (professional and otherwise, intentional or otherwise) - and contact with studs - is an area where I, personally, would like to see even greater and more robust policing on the part of match officials.

Intent should not be allowed to over-rule consequences, or effects.

 

[Apple fanboy]

There is also another consideration (in such a discussion) which is the (dubious idea) of the introduction of the principle of replaying a match if egregious errors have cost a team.

Given the very high (and costly) stakes - and the extraordinary benefits that accrue to victory (not to mention the significant costs of defeat), introducing such a principle (replaying games in the event of admitted errors) will serve to potentially undermine any and all decisions of referees (and linesmen); this is because the prizes for challenging everything remotely debatable will be simply too great for a manager (and team, and worse, vociferous and furious fans) to be able to resist that temptation.

Who would want to be a referee?

In fact, I must say that I deeply dislike this intimidating practice of a team surrounding a referee, invading his personal space, shouting in his face, when a decision fails to go their way; instead, - I, personally, would far prefer to see a system evolve (or develoo) whereby the team captain is permitted to express dissent or articulte concerns.

Moreover, if we are discussing rules changes, then, the area of fouls (professional and otherwise, intentional or otherwise) i- and contact with studs - an area where I, personally, would like to see even greater and more robust policing on the part of match officials.

Intent should not be allowed to over-rule consequences, or effects.

The way rugby players conduct themselves is pretty much as you describe.
I wholeheartedly agree the bullying of the ref should stop.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It’s important to step back for a moment amidst this discussion and acknowledge that it is impossible to eliminate grey areas from the laws of the game. Which is why we will always need human referees. They make the calls based on a mixture of knowledge, experience, and also gut instinct. They are not perfect. But neither is any other aspect of the game. It’s a human affair at its core.

Liverpool got robbed blind by ref decisions and Spurs didn’t deserve that win. That’s football. It’s not OK, it’s not fair, but these things happen from time to time. The next time Spurs get VAR’d out of some points , or when Levy ruins the Ange Postecoglu revival with his inevitable meddling, I can enjoy a hearty schadenfreude-induced guffaw. 🤣

 

[Apple fanboy]

It’s important to step back for a moment amidst this discussion and acknowledge that it is impossible to eliminate grey areas from the laws of the game. Which is why we will always need human referees. They make the calls based on a mixture of knowledge, experience, and also gut instinct. They are not perfect. But neither is any other aspect of the game. It’s a human affair at its core.

Liverpool got robbed blind by ref decisions and Spurs didn’t deserve that win. That’s football. It’s not OK, it’s not fair, but these things happen from time to time. The next time Spurs get VAR’d out of some points , or when Levy ruins the Ange Postecoglu revival with his inevitable meddling, I can enjoy a hearty schadenfreude-induced guffaw. 🤣

Indeed. VAR is not like goal line technology. That works 100% of the time. It's a no brainer.
VAR still requires interpretation by a human or humans. Thats the way it will always be.

When its a human doing the thing, there will always be human error. Add the time sensitive pressure of the decision making process, its the perfect storm for failure.

I'm glad I'm not the one making the decisions.

 

[laptech]

I suspect it's very tough being a ref. It's a fast paced game, the ball can move faster than the ref can move but yet fans expect the ref to have bionic eyes so he/she can see what is going on way way down the pitch. Bodies also get in the way of the ball and other players and yet fans expects ref's to have x-ray eyes so they can see through everything. TV camera's have made the ref's life even worse because the TV camera's can now pick up everything in clear detail with the help of zoom lenses. There is also the introduction of computers that allow football pundits to interact with footage of the game where they are able to show in intricate detail where an error occurred. Ref's do not have that luxury but yet fans are expecting them to be perfect.

VAR was introduced to help ref's but it has backfired in many cases because there is still a human making the decisions and human are known to make errors. What I will say though is that with all the errors being made, referee's and their decisions should not be undermined. The FA and others should work with ref's to help improve things so their decision making gets better and better but never undermined them or overrule them because that will lead down to a very very disturbing dark path. If ref's start to feel their decisions are being second guessed, undermined or overruled it will lead to ref's having no respect from players and managers and thus I feel ref's would either go on strike or just resign on mass.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Indeed. VAR is not like goal line technology. That works 100% of the time. It's a no brainer.
VAR still requires interpretation by a human or humans. Thats the way it will always be.

That’s why we should adopt the process used for TMOs in rugby. The on-pitch ref and video ref are miked, the ref watches replays on the big screen, and you hear their decision making process. They are less rushed and the fans get to understand what is happening.

Mistakes are still made occasionally, but it is a more honest, transparent process and it’s easier to accept because you see the refs interpreting the rules in real time. It’s not a ‘magic’ process where the ref presses on his earpiece, we all wait in ignorance of what is happening, and then a call materializes out of the ether.

 

[pachyderm]

Wednesday have fired our manager...

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

I’m truth I don’t remember him much as a player. But as a manager and if I recall later, chairman of somewhere or other.
Anyway my Dad mentioned his passing yesterday.

What about Alan Ball? He managed in the top flight.

Notice how a lot of these names are from the distant past. Current footballers don’t need the money or hassle when they retire.

But some just need/want that fix.

Bally was a great player, but he was a terrible manager and very much left the backroom staff in the lurch at the start of his last season when he up and quit without having booked things like training grounds and the like.

There are also other notables - Koeman, Hoddle et al that did fairly well on both sides.

 

[daneoni]

Good win by Newcastle yesterday

 

[laptech]

lol @ PSG, supposedly one of Europe's big guns and they humiliated by Newcastle. Newcastle is not exactly setting the premier league on fire with dazzling display of football (currently 8th in the table) and yet with having supposedly one of the best players in the world in their team, PSG get humiliated.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

In fact, I must say that I deeply dislike this intimidating practice of a team surrounding a referee, invading his personal space, shouting in his face, when a decision fails to go their way; instead, - I, personally, would far prefer to see a system evolve (or develop) whereby the team captain is permitted to express dissent or articulate the concerns of the team.

Alex Ferguson would actively encourage his players to surround and intimidate the ref. Happened pretty much every Man U game. Worked well in their favour, too, and they won a lot of points that way. But the new rules are that only the captain can approach the ref; plenty of yellows given out for dissent.

That’s why we should adopt the process used for TMOs in rugby

Nah. Rugby is a slow, boring game without an ounce of the passion that football has. Rugby stops every 30 seconds for some reason or other. VAR is good, it has been significantly beneficial to thegame. The problem isn't VAR, it's those who are supposed to be paying attention, yet too often don't.

I've always felt that over the course of the season, things tend to even themselves out in terms of decisions going your way or not. But Saturday's game was an absolute disaster of officiating, the worst I've seen for a long time, and definitely the worst of the VAR era. There were multiple failures on the pitch, not just the Diaz goal. Therre needs to be an investigation; the current system has shown itself to be not fit for purpose. Players and teams get fined for not meeting required standarss; there needs to be accountability on all sides, in the name of fairness.

ol @ PSG, supposedly one of Europe's big guns and they humiliated by Newcastle. Newcastle is not exactly setting the premier league on fire with dazzling display of football (currently 8th in the table) and yet with having supposedly one of the best players in the world in their team, PSG get humiliated.

One club owned by dirty money, against another. Both attempting to buy success. Neither with any genuine class or pedigree in European competition.

 

[laptech]

The problem with the game as it is now is that due to the amount of money in the game, the repercussions of not getting into the champions league or getting relegated can have such dire consequences for a club that bad ref decisions can no longer be allowed. How many times have we seen a club fail to win the league by 1 or 2 points or a club relegated by 1 or 2 points on the last day all due to a game or games were lost due a bad call made by the ref. Days gone by whilst annoying it was put up with but with the amount of money in the game now, no it cannot carry on, bad ref decisions need to be a thing of the past and it needs the authorities of the game to do what ever they must to give ref's everything they need to bad decisions can be eliminated from the game.