Well at least he didn’t go to a different region for the payday. He’s still a formidable player even in his twilight years.
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The 2023-2024 Football Thread
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Okay, the Liverpool fan takes on ETH. Great.
As a United fan myself, I think Zlatan Ibrahimovic raised a valid point in a recent interview: ETH was successful managing younger, lower profile players at Ajax and getting the most out of them, but the skillset required to get the most out of highly paid stars and superstars is a different set of skills. I can see that being a hurdle for ETH to overcome at United, for sure. He's a Dutch manager, and Dutch managers can be pretty dogmatic and rigid (see also LVG). Jadon Sancho is raised as an example of his poor man management, but I don't think Sancho has much support in the dressing room. I imagine the awkward ways David De Gea and Mason Greenwood's situations were handled rankled the squad more than that, but ETH bears little blame there. I think he can be a long term success, but he has to evolve and grow as a manager to get the most out of a higher class of players — and certainly more of these players need to be moved on first.
However, I don't think even Pep or Klopp could succeed at United the way things currently are there: a mishmash of players bought for different managers, many of whom are highly overpaid and under motivated. Ed Woodward's years of bad decisions loom large over the squad. John Murtough has done a bit better, but it feels like ETH has largely gone for players who have played for him before, which must speak to how little he trusts the scouting and player evaluation departments. This worked well with Lisandro, much less so to date with Antony — a purchase I thought was a mistake, even before his legal troubles came into view. The footballing structure is still nowhere near good enough, and you can blame the board and the owners for that.
Things will get somewhat better for ETH once more of his players get back to fitness, though I'm pretty sure Casemiro is washed. The club will continue being a dysfunctional family circus until ownership changes are made. If SJR's 25% purchase with footballing decision powers comes through, that's a great first step. Send Arnold and Murtough packing, bring in competent, experienced people to run the club and provide the long term vision that's been sorely lacking.
As a United fan myself, I think Zlatan Ibrahimovic raised a valid point in a recent interview: ETH was successful managing younger, lower profile players at Ajax and getting the most out of them, but the skillset required to get the most out of highly paid stars and superstars is a different set of skills. I can see that being a hurdle for ETH to overcome at United, for sure. He's a Dutch manager, and Dutch managers can be pretty dogmatic and rigid (see also LVG). Jadon Sancho is raised as an example of his poor man management, but I don't think Sancho has much support in the dressing room. I imagine the awkward ways David De Gea and Mason Greenwood's situations were handled rankled the squad more than that, but ETH bears little blame there. I think he can be a long term success, but he has to evolve and grow as a manager to get the most out of a higher class of players — and certainly more of these players need to be moved on first.
However, I don't think even Pep or Klopp could succeed at United the way things currently are there: a mishmash of players bought for different managers, many of whom are highly overpaid and under motivated. Ed Woodward's years of bad decisions loom large over the squad. John Murtough has done a bit better, but it feels like ETH has largely gone for players who have played for him before, which must speak to how little he trusts the scouting and player evaluation departments. This worked well with Lisandro, much less so to date with Antony — a purchase I thought was a mistake, even before his legal troubles came into view. The footballing structure is still nowhere near good enough, and you can blame the board and the owners for that.
Things will get somewhat better for ETH once more of his players get back to fitness, though I'm pretty sure Casemiro is washed. The club will continue being a dysfunctional family circus until ownership changes are made. If SJR's 25% purchase with footballing decision powers comes through, that's a great first step. Send Arnold and Murtough packing, bring in competent, experienced people to run the club and provide the long term vision that's been sorely lacking.
I'm not 100% convinced that this is the thread or football community for you.
Have you perhaps thought about Reddit - there's plenty of "banter" over there for "real football fans".
Part of the reason I hang here is so I don't have to put up with the very people who claim to be "real football fans" when in fact they are simply football opinionists.
The problems at United were there before ETH took over and I suspect they will be there after he leaves.
For every gem they have, they seem to employ three who don’t pull their weight.
When they do have a player with promise, it doesn’t seem to materialise or last. Must be very frustrating being a United fan. Especially with the successful neighbours.
Things went downhill with United when the Glazers started to overrule some of Alex Ferguson's team decisions. One of the biggest was Rooney stepping out of line going public on his displeasure at how the team was performing and was thus thinking of leaving. The next day Ferguson wanted him gone, put on the transfer list but the Glazers said no. In my opinion ever since that day the players knew they had the power because the Glazers would back the players and not the manager and that has how it's been ever since Ferguson's retirement, managers have struggled to stamp their authority on the team because when they do it starts to cause fractions within the team and who is the one that get's pushed out? certainly not the players, yep the manager and it's happened to every manager since. Look at the Sancho situation, ETH stamps his authority on the guy and now everyone seems to have it in for ETH saying he has 'lost the dressing room'. Ferguson never lost the dressing room because he got rid of the trouble makers. Well that was until the Glazers took ownership and it started to all go down hill from there. Yes the club had a few starting glory years under the Glazers ownership but it started to rapidly unwind once they got a feel of the club and when that happened Ferguson did not hang around long.
Don't get me wrong - I admire his skills and his commitment to the game immensely. I am an unabashed fanboy.
I just wonder what it says about the MLS at the mid-to-lower-table end, when a single player can so completely change the trajectory of a club.
We know there are good teams in MLS and in the upper reaches, it's a pretty high-quality league, but is it like so many leagues around the world, where the quality really resides in a handful of clubs and doesn't filter through the entire league?
If Klopp were dropped into the Hicks and Gillette years, I doubt he would have won anything. He might have done OK, but you can't drop a good or even great manager into a dysfunctional club and expect them to single-handedly get results.
Well, on the upside, if you look at who wins the league it’s not just two or three or four clubs - there is a lot of parity and it is very hard to win back to back titles.
So while Messi made a big impact…guess what, Miami didn’t even make the playoffs! So it wasn’t THAT big of an impact, however flashy some of his performances were.
I think it says a lot about how bad / unbalanced Miami were that he could carry them single-handedly. Maybe if he was surrounded by a decent, organized squad they’d still be in the competition. They are instead a mini-PSG, all bark and not so much bite.
Whatever. This isn't your forum. So, other opinions are valid. If you want your own cosy little clique, then you too have options.
I think my views are shared by most other observers of the game, tbh.
Both appear to have significantly better interpersonal skills than Ten Haag. I don't think this has anything to do with nationality or culture, it's about individual personality. I agree that he is hampered by the toxic culture at Old Trafford though. Nobody has been able to make it work, not even Moyes. And he was personally chosen by Bac...Alex Ferguson himself. But I do think either Pep or Klopp would better than TH. They're simply better managers of people.
I think the reality is that the game has changed, with the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola and then Klopp becoming influential in the European football and the Premier League. The Glazers, it must be pointed out, still provided huge funds for transfers. I think the root of the problem stems from the Cult of Ferguson; as the game changes, he wasn't able to adapt as quickly sticking to the same previously successful system as he'd been used to. Other teams had learned from this (and from Wenger at Arsenal), but Fergie didn't want to admit he was past it, and tried to exert more power over the club than he actually had, such was his ego. The appointment of Moyes was a disaster; but Fergie wouldn't admit that. The club has held onto the Fergie era for too long; Liverpool suffered similarly by trying to hold onto the old 'bootroom' ethos of promoting from within. Empires rise and fall. Simple fact is that other clubs adapted, learned, improved. It can take years for a system to really take hold and start paying off; Man City took a few years before they started winning things, and still had to wait a long while before winning the ECL. Patience is not a virtue in modern football though, and Utd's impatience in this regard just isn't doing them any favours. They have to change their mindset; Liverpool accepted they were no longer at the top, and set about rebuilding the whole ethos of the club. And it took until Klopp for that to really work. It could take another ten years for UTD to win big again. But their demise has ultimately been good for English football; the league is more open now, smaller clubs are doing better, the standard of football has improved. Liverpool, City, Chelsea and even Spurs have all been in CL finals in the last few years, and 3 trophies won in that time. And now Arsenal are back in the CL, and even Newcastle. Good times.
Hmm, fair point. Those were dark days. Culminating in the appointment of Roy Hodgson.
The clue to the problem with the MLS is in the name. It's a purely financial enterprise, built entirely for generating TV revenue. The wider problem with US football is that there simply isn't the extense of grass roots football across the nation; in the US, 'soccer' is a much more middle class game, with expensive facilities and commercial club systems. In the rest of the world, football starts in back yards and alleyways, on dirt pitches, the local park, school playgrounds; anywhere where a ball can be kicked. Football is played religiously by kids in the poorest communities. In the US, visit any area of social and economic deprivation, and you won't find footbal pitches. But you will find basketball courts, however rudimentary. Because that's the 'grass roots' sport of the USA. And that's why you find players from even the poorest backgrounds in the NBA. The MLS by contrast is little more than a retirement home and final payday for fading stars from other parts of the globe. The standard is way behind anything in South America or Europe. Messi was so effective at changing Miami's fortunes, because the standard is overall so low. It's like if he went to play for Accrington Stanley. Only with a lot more money. And as we've seen at Man U and now Everton; spending hundreds of millions doesn't guarantee success. It just guarantees lots of grossly overpaid sports people.
I disagree with your assessment of United with regards to Sir Alex Ferguson. The Glazers took over the club in 2005 and in that time with Ferguson still at the helm until his retirement in 2013, United won 5 premier leagues, 1 champions league (runners up twice), an FA Cup and FIFA Club World Cup. That is not the sign of someone being affected by changes in football. Personally I do not think changes in football affected Ferguson, it was his age (71) catching up to him and the Glazers becoming more hands on with the club they now owned. As for your comment about his ego, has this not proven to be a huge success at United because look at the club now, none of the managers coming after Ferguson has come anywhere close to his level of attitude towards the game and furious temper something that had shown to work at United.
Also I do not agree that football has changed, it's just a myth the media like to portray because there is only so many ways players can pass the ball, run with the ball, tackle, get into position, mark a player. Nothing has been reinvented. Ball playing goal keepers are not a new invention. There have been ball playing keepers up and down the different leagues for generations, is just that they never got noticed until recently.
Any United fan can see how vastly different the team performed when Fergie was manager to that of all the other managers. With Fergie nearly all the players would run their heart out for the full 90 mins to get the win. Since Fergie retired the players are not longer as fit as they were during Fergie's time as manager. They are no longer able to run for the full 90mins because every time a new manager comes in the first they do is complain at how unfit many of the players are and as such are not match ready. Listen to ex United players now pundits Keane, Neville and Scholes, all of them say the same thing, United used to be about fast pace high pressing and it worked. That no longer happens at United now because each manager has their own way of doing things and it has not worked.
Look at the Busby babe era and look at how long it took for United to become successful again after Matt Busby retired in 1969. Not Until Alex Ferguson came along were United successful again and it will be the same again having Fergie retired in 2013. The club has not won a league or champions league since and in my opinion they wont do until another 'special' manager arrives at the club again. The club has had two that turned the fortunes of the club around, Matt Busby and Alex Ferguson. How long have United got to wait again before they get their 3rd 'special' manager.
The Glazers have always provided more than ample funds for managers to spend. That Man U were still winning under their ownership proves that the current issues are less to do with them, and more to do with the toxic culture at the club. Naive fans blaming the Glazers for everything are just that; they simply can't/won't accept that the old era is over. Once Abramovich took over at Chelsea, things changed. Then City got bought out, and they changed again. Man U were still spending copious amounts, but the cracks were showing. Fergie got out once he realised he wasn't going to keep on winning, that younger, perhaps better managers were coming up through the game, and that other clubs were now on a level in terms of budgets. But he tried to retain power within the club, and that's what has contributed to Man U's demise. Because new people coming in with their own ideas, were having to compete with the 'old boys club', which created fraction and division within the club. The Ferguson approved appointment of Moyes was a glaring example of how Fergie and his cohorts wanted to rule the club their way, but this ovbiously didn't work out as they appointed a man who was woefully out of his depth. But instead of having the good grace to step back and say 'ok we're done, let someone else have a go' for the good of the club, Fergie bitterly tried to cling on, and this has caused untold damage. Given Fergie's ego, it's not a stretch to suggest the anti-Glazer sentiment may possibly have been stirred up by old Bacon Face himself. He's that kind of person; angry, bullying and nasty. If you ask me, the real fault lies with the wider board at OT, they should have put Fergie out to pasture as soon as he retired as manager. Instead, they stuck with him and have been in a bitter civil war with the Glazers ever since. But as long as the club is making money for the Glazers, they won't walk away. A situation I, and I am confident many millions of other football fans hope continues for a very long time yet.
You can disagree. That's fine. Football is faster, more intense and more skilful now than it's ever been. Players are fitter (haven't I already proven this earlier in this thread?) than before. So yes, it has changed. Maybe not to the untrained eye, but I've definitely noticed it, and so have those who know the game. And there's the science to back this up:
Scientists: football has changed dramatically
New research on the Premier League shows that professional football players are sprinting more and more. And it is changing the way the game is played, say scientists.
sciencenordic.com
None of those players would survive for long in todays game, at the fitness levels they had. They'd have to be stronger, fitter, faster. And they all talk a lot of crap anyway. Especially Roy Keane. As for current Utd players not being as fit; see the science above. The game has changed. Man Utd haven failed to move with the times. Now other teams are playing better.
Do you have a personal issue with Ferguson because in my opinion your assessment of him is wrong. Yes he had an ego, an ego that kept players in check. He had no desire to cling onto staying at the club. It is very well known in United circles that Ferguson wanted to retire from the club many years before he did (2002) but his wife Cathy persuaded him not to and the man himself said that the day his wife tells him it's enough, that is when he will retire and that is exactly what happened. In interviews and his biographies Fergie said the game is in his blood and he would keep going on as manager till the day he dies (health allowing him too) and the only things that would stop him would be bad health or his wife asking him too. What many people do not know is that in 2013, his wife's sister passed away and his wife needed the support of her husband to help cope with the grief of loosing her sister so Alex retired so he could be at his wife's side during her time of grief which he would not have been able to do so whilst still manager at the club because it would have required nearly 100% of his time.
There is a lot of miss truths and miss information about Ferguson because of the hatred many feel towards the man for not allowing the club to defend the FA Cup to instead play the inaugural FIFA World Club Cup and still to this day the man is hated because those that hate him claim that is the day the FA Cup died. That fact of the matter is is was never Ferguson who decided to not defend the FA Cup because he is actually on record wanting to defend the FA Cup and went as far as personally contacting the prime minster at the time to see if he could find a way to get United to defend the FA Cup as well as playing in the FIFA World Club cup but none of this known till years after the fact. The decision to not defend the FA Cup was the board of directors, NOT Ferguson but even with the facts known people still want to hate on the man.
I'm genuinely not that interested in him. Certainly not on a personal level. I, and many, many others see him as a very toxic influence in the game and we're all very glad he's gone. Nice of you to attempt to paint a picture of him as a kind caring compassionate man, but nah. Hes gone, that's it. The game has moved on, and is a lot better for it.
Lol! He wanted other games moved to suit his team. His, team, nobody else. Yet another example of the arrogance of the man. Trying to exert political influence to benefit his team in a sport? Ultimately, Man U made the decision to play in a different tournament, and by doing so, disrespected every other club in the FA Cup. Money talks. So enough with the revisionism.
'They're forcing us out' - why Fergie had to call the PM over Utd FA Cup defence
Manchester United caused chaos back in 1999 after choosing to play in the Club World Cup in Brazil
""As fans we wanted to find ways of keeping them in the FA Cup and we thought we had come up with a solution. It involved moving some of the fixtures to earlier in the season and creating a gap before United were due to go in January during which, if the FA would move the tie, they could play their third-round cup match.
"We were playing Arsenal and Martin Edwards was sat next to the new Minister for Sport, Kate Hoey. She made some remark along the lines of, 'I believe you're ruining this season's FA Cup' and when word of that got back to Fergie he was furious.
"I spoke to him over the phone and he said: 'That's it, they're forcing us out. F*** them. We're going to Brazil and that's the end of it.'"
What a nice man.
Who ever devised that science report is someone looking to try and be important. Watching the game it is bleeding obvious. Ferguson got the players to a fitness level that surpassed those of all the other teams in the league. These players were able to run around the pitch for a full 90mins where as everyone else would start to falter in the last 10 to 15 mins of the match. It took years for the other teams to compete with United on fitness level and when they did that is when things started to change and low and behold, some scientist comes along, see's that many many more players are now sprinting faster and writes a report trying to say that there is science involved in why things has changed. No there isn't. Ferguson had a very very good back room staff in how to get the players fitter than ever before, from what they ate to what exercises they did. Clubs that were bought out by very rich owners was able to invest in the same things United was and so naturally, the fitness levels of players of these now rich clubs had increased. Their players were also able to run faster than they used to. Science was not involved, good old fashioned know how was and clubs can thank Ferguson for that.You can disagree. That's fine. Football is faster, more intense and more skilful now than it's ever been. Players are fitter (haven't I already proven this earlier in this thread?) than before. So yes, it has changed. Maybe not to the untrained eye, but I've definitely noticed it, and so have those who know the game. And there's the science to back this up:
Scientists: football has changed dramatically
New research on the Premier League shows that professional football players are sprinting more and more. And it is changing the way the game is played, say scientists.
None of those players would survive for long in todays game, at the fitness levels they had. They'd have to be stronger, fitter, faster. And they all talk a lot of crap anyway. Especially Roy Keane. As for current Utd players not being as fit; see the science above. The game has changed. Man Utd haven failed to move with the times. Now other teams are playing better.
Again you are wrong but we shall have to leave it there because you clearly have something against the man that clouds your judgement.I'm genuinely not that interested in him. Certainly not on a personal level. I, and many, many others see him as a very toxic influence in the game and we're all very glad he's gone. Nice of you to attempt to paint a picture of him as a kind caring compassionate man, but nah. Hes gone, that's it. The game has moved on, and is a lot better for it.
Lol! He wanted other games moved to suit his team. His, team, nobody else. Yet another example of the arrogance of the man. Trying to exert political influence to benefit his team in a sport? Ultimately, Man U made the decision to play in a different tournament, and by doing so, disrespected every other club in the FA Cup. Money talks. So enough with the revisionism.
'They're forcing us out' - why Fergie had to call the PM over Utd FA Cup defence
Manchester United caused chaos back in 1999 after choosing to play in the Club World Cup in Brazilwww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk
""As fans we wanted to find ways of keeping them in the FA Cup and we thought we had come up with a solution. It involved moving some of the fixtures to earlier in the season and creating a gap before United were due to go in January during which, if the FA would move the tie, they could play their third-round cup match.
"We were playing Arsenal and Martin Edwards was sat next to the new Minister for Sport, Kate Hoey. She made some remark along the lines of, 'I believe you're ruining this season's FA Cup' and when word of that got back to Fergie he was furious.
"I spoke to him over the phone and he said: 'That's it, they're forcing us out. F*** them. We're going to Brazil and that's the end of it.'"
What a nice man.
They're scientists. I thimk they're just interested in science,not 'trying to look important. You've no evidence for that at all, so why even suggest it? Just because it doesn't suit your own narrow view?
Ferguson was a great manager, who enjoyed success in an era where money started to dominate the game on an unprecedented level. There is no question that they set the standard for others to follow, and enhanced the game itself. That's what great teams do; Liverpool had done before them, and teams like Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Ajax and Bayern Munich have done too. And more recently, it's been Chelsea and City. I have no problem with acknowledging and admiring the achievements of Man Utd during their most successful era.
It was. Saying otherwise is like denying climate change, or saying that the Earth is flat. Other clubs were envious of the superior training facilities Utd had developed, and how they were using nutritionists and analysing data to improve performance. That 'good old fashioned know how' was science.
I'm not. It's literally what happened. How can you argue against fact??
...you don't want to accept other people have opinions that differ from your own. That's fine. I'm bored with it anyway.
Peace.
I accept that you have opinions, it is just that I don't agree with them. Just as I have opinions and you do not agree with. Your view of the facts differs to my view of the facts. Your take on science in football differs to that of mine. Neither of us are right or wrong, we just differ and disagree on things. That's is the whole point of have a debate/discussions about things.
I expected a bunch of UK games to be called off this weekend due to the storms, but so far it’s just Rotherham v Ipswich. I expect that number to grow.
We are playing at Villa on Sunday. One of our closest rivals this season. Their manager has done a great job with limited funds.
Most of the games are on Saturday this week (we are the only Sunday game). Not sure why.
I’ll be hoping Brighton can beat City and Everton can do the impossible and get a win at Anfield.
If Sheffield Utd beat Manchester United, I think there will be a sacking.
We are playing at Villa on Sunday. One of our closest rivals this season. Their manager has done a great job with limited funds.
Most of the games are on Saturday this week (we are the only Sunday game). Not sure why.
I’ll be hoping Brighton can beat City and Everton can do the impossible and get a win at Anfield.
If Sheffield Utd beat Manchester United, I think there will be a sacking.
Ashley Young sent off at Anfield. I suspect it will be a long second half for them. Still 0-0 at the moment.
Just noticed that the death of the legendary Sir Bobby Charlton has been reported.
Rest in peace, Sir Bobby Charlton — the last remaining survivor of the Munich Air Disaster and the player at the center of United and England's greatest achievements. A legendary footballer and even more legendary human being. What a tremendous loss.
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