The 2023-2024 Football Thread

[laptech]

A great player in an average team will win less for sure.
Just thinking how refreshing to hear these old greats saying others were better than them.
I can’t imagine certain current players being so humble!

Pele vs Moore is one of my favourite games.

Average after Matt Busby left yes because no one could ever call Matt Busby's 'babes' era as being average.

Just for the fun of it, I checked the stats of the games between West Ham and Man United when both George Best and Bobby Moore were playing in their respective teams. Moore joined West Ham in 1958 and Best joined Man United in 1963 therefore I am going for games between the years 1963 to 1974 which is when both of them left their respective teams.

1963-1974
Games played = 24
Man United Wins = 9
West Ham Wins = 8
Total number of draws = 7

So, only one game between them when both of them played off against one another. One of the leagues best defenders (Moore) against one of the leagues best wingers/midfielders (Best)

 

[Apple fanboy]

Average after Matt Busby left yes because no one could ever call Matt Busby's 'babes' era as being average.

Just for the fun of it, I checked the stats of the games between West Ham and Man United when both George Best and Bobby Moore were playing in their respective teams. Moore joined West Ham in 1958 and Best joined Man United in 1963 therefore I am going for games between the years 1963 to 1974 which is when both of them left their respective teams.

1963-1974
Games played = 24
Man United Wins = 9
West Ham Wins = 8
Total number of draws = 7

So, only one game between them when both of them played off against one another. One of the leagues best defenders (Moore) against one of the leagues best wingers/midfielders (Best)

Wow! That’s quite interesting.

 

[Lioness~]

What do you say Americans? Will Hayes help you to progress?
And who will take over Chelsea?

 

[Silencio]

Thought we discussed this earlier, but Emma Hayes to the USWNT is, to put it in a very American way, a home run. A top coach and further progress on the generational transition. She will keep them in the mix for the top national sides in the world.

United should've put about 10 goals past Wigan, but the poor quality finishing was almost comical — McTominay and Højlund in particular were utterly useless. Højlund in particular should be scoring for fun against teams like that.

Still loving Garnacho on the right. He brings so much more to the table than Antony.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Thought we discussed this earlier, but Emma Hayes to the USWNT is, to put it in a very American way, a home run. A top coach and further progress on the generational transition. She will keep them in the mix for the top national sides in the world.

United should've put about 10 goals past Wigan, but the poor quality finishing was almost comical — McTominay and Højlund in particular were utterly useless. Højlund in particular should be scoring for fun against teams like that.

Still loving Garnacho on the right. He brings so much more to the table than Antony.

I thought Rashford was pretty ineffective in front of goal to.

 

[laptech]

What do you say Americans? Will Hayes help you to progress?
And who will take over Chelsea?

I think Ms Hayes will do OK. She has experience of working in the US womens league. She needs to get some international experience behind her so this USA womens manager job should be a good step up for her.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I am optimistic about Hayes. After the disappointment of the last World Cup the squad will be looking for inspiration and a fresh start from a proven manager and I expect Hayes can offer that. We have the talent to win everything so there is a really high ceiling, but also plenty of pressure and expectation.

 

[laptech]

I am optimistic about Hayes. After the disappointment of the last World Cup the squad will be looking for inspiration and a fresh start from a proven manager and I expect Hayes can offer that. We have the talent to win everything so there is a really high ceiling, but also plenty of pressure and expectation.

Whilst the USA women's league has been running for a lot lot longer than many other countries I feel the 4 years between the last world cup and the one just gone shows that many countries have really stepped up their game with regards to women's football, the USA team no longer having the dominance it once had. Yes they are still a very good team BUT many other teams have now got close to them in terms of skill and experience of the game. I think with the exception of Japan who has also had a long time womens football, the USA team just dominated in ever competition they played. Not anymore. Now the team has to up their game even more. Ms Hayes is a very very good manager and should do well as USA manager BUT due to the past levels of success the USA team have had, will she be able to handle the pressure of having to win every game because I am sure that is what the supporters of the womens USA team will be expecting.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Whilst the USA women's league has been running for a lot lot longer than many other countries I feel the 4 years between the last world cup and the one just gone shows that many countries have really stepped up their game with regards to women's football, the USA team no longer having the dominance it once had.

This is true, but there is no reason USA can’t remain a dominant player. The women’s national team is arguably the premier female sporting product in the US (yeah, yeah, I said ARGUABLY. But they’d be my pick.).

Unlike men’s sports, a higher proportion of the best American female athletes will be drawn to soccer rather than baseball, football, basketball, ice hockey - the traditionally high-profile men’s sports against which men’s professional soccer competes for both athletes and fans.

So I think reports of the death of US women’s soccer dominance are premature. Sure, they won’t dominate the way they did in decades past, when the women's’ game was much less developed globally. But that doesn’t mean they won’t continue to be among the top handful of teams on the planet for the foreseeable future.

 

[Lioness~]

I am saying goodbye for the last time to this thread. Truly ‼️

Believe me when I am saying that I AM SO SO TIRED of discussing Women’s football with men who know absolutely nothing about it. Continue to wrestle around with each other. Have fun 🤩
But I won’t give one more minute or participating in this any more, that’s it.

 

[pachyderm]

What do you say Americans? Will Hayes help you to progress?
And who will take over Chelsea?

I think she'll do great!

Not sure about Chelsea.

I'm sorry to see you go.

Maybe start a thread for Women's teams?

 

[laptech]

Question: Where do you lot stand on this issue?

I was reading an interview Chelsea and England women's footballer Fran Kirby gave to the BBC about the issue of 'body image'.

Fran Kirby: Chelsea and England forward on body image & social media abuse

Chelsea's Fran Kirby talks to BBC Sport about dealing with abuse about her body shape, returning from injury and her club future.

www.bbc.co.uk

the following is just a couple of paragraphs from the interview

Chelsea and England midfielder Fran Kirby, 30, first raised issues on the "stigma" around nutrition in women's football and the pressure on players about their "weight and how we look on TV" in November, which she said was linked to the growing profile of the sport.

At the time, Chelsea manager Emma Hayes praised Kirby for addressing a "problem" of "underfuelling and underloading" which "comes with the constant demands to look a certain way and, unfortunately, a vitriolic environment that comes from social media".

It was the use of the words being used by Kirby and her club manager Emma Hayes such as 'stigma', 'pressure on players about their weight', and 'constant demands to look a certain way' and 'vitriolic environment that comes with social media'.

reading the article I got the impression that Fran Kirby was saying there is a problem within women's football of players being judged on the way the look and as such it is a problem within the game that should be removed because of the issues it can cause towards female players. Now I know and as I am sure others do in here that for the majority, females suffer from body image issues more so than men and thus having their body type/size being criticized is a major concern for female players.

For generations, male footballers of all ages and all levels of football have suffered from having their body image/size judged/criticized, especially when they are returning back from injury and are not at their peak best, which is what happened to Fran Kirby, a lot of the body issues she is complaining about is when she came back from injury. Male players are told to 'put up with it' because their body being judged by others is part and parcel of the game. If fans think you are too overweight, too skinny, too tall, too big, to small, hair style, hair colour, tattoo's, too pale, too tanned, they will say so.

Therefore, women footballers who complain about how others are criticizing their body, should they be told to 'put up with it' just like their male counterparts do or should everyone that is involved in the game be told to stop criticizing/ being judgement over the bodies types/shape of ALL footballers?.

 

[pachyderm]

Question: Where do you lot stand on this issue?


stop criticizing/ being judgement over the bodies types/shape of ALL footballers?.

This.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The discussion about who's the best defender ever, Beckenbauer or Moore is exactly the same discussion that people have about George Best. There are interviews given by the great Pele who has said Best was better than him!!! You look at his 'notable' honours list and they are all with Man United, 2 Division 1 titles, 1 European Cup and 2 Charity Shield cups, not very many when you consider the list of players during his playing time who have won so so much more. A good example of that being Pele. George Best won a very small amount of silverware and yet is considered and still considered one of the best players the world has ever seen. He persistently comes in the top 10 of players of all time, beating players who have won so so much more than him but yet he is always rated on his individual skill as a player rather than based on the amount of trophies he won.

This is why in my opinion what a player has won in their career is irrelevant because Best won very little in his career but is considered one of the best players the world has ever seen. He is persistently judged on his individual football talent/skills which even Pele rates Best as better than him.

Personally, I think that Best - while an excellent player - has received a very soft, and uncritical press (mostly from admiring male journalists and commentators), perhaps, because, in addition to his undoubted gifts, he personified the "swinging sixtes" life-style, and was the first of the "modern" football stars, in his youth, a handsome man, and an attractive player, who was able to be marketed as a 'star', and as an example of the social mobility that talent allowed someone from an ordinary background to achieve in football once the maximum wage bar had been repealed.

His actual playing career was very short, (and ended in spectacular self-destruction), and his period as a player at the top of his game, considerably shorter still; moreover, he was a member of a very talented Manchester United football team, (his international career - when playing with the far less glittering Northern Ireland - was a lot less distinguished).

Moreover, while skilled, he didn't bring much as a tactician, as a strategist, as a creative thinker, to the game, and spent the last thirty years of his life on TV chat shows (not, note, football shows such as MOTD), being indulged by male commentators - in a way, he was almost like an earlier version of Paul Gascoigne.

While I am not much of a fan of the GOAT discussions, George Best would not make many of my lists.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Question: Where do you lot stand on this issue?

......

It was the use of the words being used by Kirby and her club manager Emma Hayes such as 'stigma', 'pressure on players about their weight', and 'constant demands to look a certain way' and 'vitriolic environment that comes with social media'.

reading the article I got the impression that Fran Kirby was saying there is a problem within women's football of players being judged on the way the look and as such it is a problem within the game that should be removed because of the issues it can cause towards female players. Now I know and as I am sure others do in here that for the majority, females suffer from body image issues more so than men and thus having their body type/size being criticized is a major concern for female players.
......

These issues aren't confined to football, and advertisers, societal expectations and attitudes in general towards how women are supposed to present themselves in public and social media have an awful lot to answer for.

Female stars in other sports (tennis had a very poor record, while gymnastics were rightly notorious in their treatment of women and their appalling expectations re appropriate appearance), also suffered (enormously) from this issue.

should everyone that is involved in the game be told to stop criticizing/ being judgement over the bodies types/shape of ALL footballers?.

As @pachyderm has already written: This.

However, criticism re appearance tends to be unusually gendered, hence the issue - while common to both male and female football, - tends to be both more prevalent and much more pronounced, as well as a lot more vicious and vitriolic and judgmental in women's football.

 

[timber]

Question: Where do you lot stand on this issue?

I was reading an interview Chelsea and England women's footballer Fran Kirby gave to the BBC about the issue of 'body image'.

Fran Kirby: Chelsea and England forward on body image & social media abuse

Chelsea's Fran Kirby talks to BBC Sport about dealing with abuse about her body shape, returning from injury and her club future.

www.bbc.co.uk

the following is just a couple of paragraphs from the interview




It was the use of the words being used by Kirby and her club manager Emma Hayes such as 'stigma', 'pressure on players about their weight', and 'constant demands to look a certain way' and 'vitriolic environment that comes with social media'.

reading the article I got the impression that Fran Kirby was saying there is a problem within women's football of players being judged on the way the look and as such it is a problem within the game that should be removed because of the issues it can cause towards female players. Now I know and as I am sure others do in here that for the majority, females suffer from body image issues more so than men and thus having their body type/size being criticized is a major concern for female players.

For generations, male footballers of all ages and all levels of football have suffered from having their body image/size judged/criticized, especially when they are returning back from injury and are not at their peak best, which is what happened to Fran Kirby, a lot of the body issues she is complaining about is when she came back from injury. Male players are told to 'put up with it' because their body being judged by others is part and parcel of the game. If fans think you are too overweight, too skinny, too tall, too big, to small, hair style, hair colour, tattoo's, too pale, too tanned, they will say so.

Therefore, women footballers who complain about how others are criticizing their body, should they be told to 'put up with it' just like their male counterparts do or should everyone that is involved in the game be told to stop criticizing/ being judgement over the bodies types/shape of ALL footballers?.

I won't talk about women football, don't know enough but in men football the player weight is very much a real question and a good indicator of the player fitness and effectiveness.
Football is a competitive sport performed by athletes and for a long time physical prowess, namely speed are strength, has been important.
Football already is a quite democratic sport (unlike basketball for exemple) but if a player isn't fit he won't perform to his potential and it shows. As almost all players aren't provided with Ronaldinho's feet being fit is important. Fit isn't only weight but it's an important part.
Just look at Ronaldo and Wayne Rooney. For all his faults Ronaldo takes his work seriously.
I know this isn't a feel good answer were everybody gets a win but it is what it is. If players don't like it they can change their Ferraris for a Fiesta and order a bacon cheeseburger.
I said I wouldn't talk about women football but I will say just this, it's already quite professional so I don't expect it to be that different.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Personally I’m a lot less interested in how a footballer looks and more interested in how they perform!
I certainly don’t bother reading articles about their body shape.
Now fitness in terms of injuries is much more concerning for me.
Bowen went off in our last game.
As did Parquet.
Antonio is out for 6 weeks.
Kudus is at the African cup.

Very concerned where the goals are going to be coming from.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Very concerned where the goals are going to be coming from.

Ah, yes.

These days, unfortunately, I am more than familiar with this concern.

 

[Silencio]

Best was a fantastic player at his peak, but I think most GOAT discussions in any sport will take a balance of peak prowess and longevity into account. What's the more important of those two is very, very subjective. Best definitely falls short in the longevity department.

There are some players who stuck around a long time and accumulated large "counting numbers". I mostly think of baseball players like Nolan Ryan and Pete Rose, who had extremely long careers and accumulated record numbers of strikeouts and hits, respectively, but nobody ever puts them in the GOAT conversation because they had other flaws or limits to their games.

Similarly, championships are one way of measuring a player's greatness, but not the be-all, end-all in team sports. For example, Robert Horry won 7 NBA titles as a player, but was he even a Hall of Fame level talent? No.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

It looks like Jordan Henderson's big project to grow the game in Saudi Arabia and change people's perspectives on culture has petered out in the face of a crap level of play, low attendances, and, shockingly, him and his family finding it too hot....in the Middle East. Who knew?

It's a depressing and predictable turn of events, though the story is far from over. The Saudis are now treating him like a migrant worker and making it difficult for him to leave without some painful financial consequences, and they won't be nice about it. Who knew?

There is talk he wants to go back to England, where I am sure he will be received warmly. Maybe there is a silver lining in that this experience will deter at least some other players from going there.

However, criticism re appearance tends to be unusually gendered, hence the issue - while common to both male and female football, - tends to be both more prevalent and much more pronounced, as well as a lot more vicious and vitriolic and judgmental in women's football.

This is true. Though, we have seen a change in the men's game too.

In the early 2000s many people referred to Lampard as 'Fat Frank' (for no reason, I might add) - and more to the point, the Brazilian or 'original' Ronaldo was often called 'Fat Ronaldo.' I admit I have chuckled at this 'banter' in years past.

But that's not really tolerated in polite company so much anymore, and I now feel ashamed I found it funny. As recently as 20 years ago most of us were not paying enough attention to the mental health impacts of 'banter' in the game. Things have really improved in the last 20 years, but there is still a long way to go. They are athletes, so (professional) body judgement is part of their trade - but that doesn't include speculative labeling for the purposes of selling papers, winding people up, being mean on the socials, or what have you.

Obviously with female players this is compounded, given the broader body image pressures they face in western society in general.

Best was a fantastic player at his peak, but I think most GOAT discussions in any sport will take a balance of peak prowess and longevity into account. What's the more important of those two is very, very subjective. Best definitely falls short in the longevity department.

This is why I'm not a fan of GOAT discussions. 'Greatest' is a composite of talent, longevity, achievement, and visibility. So while it's sort of a meritocracy, it also really comes down to luck.

Pele was clearly an incredible talent. He managed to stay pretty healthy and had a long career. He was fortunate to be born Brazilian, during an era when they dominated (at times) international football. And finally, many of his exploits made it on film.

Take out any one of those factors and an equally 'great' player might drop out of the discussion. Previous to Argentina's recent WC win, a lot of people cited Messi's lack of World Cup trophies as a mark against him - but that had very little to do with his individual talent as a player and more to do with the Argentina setup and the vagaries of knockout football. So while it's fine to discuss it for fun, 'GOAT' is and always will be an arbitrary designation and there will never be consensus.

 

[laptech]

Personally I’m a lot less interested in how a footballer looks and more interested in how they perform!
I certainly don’t bother reading articles about their body shape.
Now fitness in terms of injuries is much more concerning for me.
Bowen went off in our last game.
As did Parquet.
Antonio is out for 6 weeks.
Kudus is at the African cup.

Very concerned where the goals are going to be coming from.

West Ham could play a new style of football and go for nil nil draws lol, 10 players stay defending with a lone striker up front and play 'lob it' football. Every time the hammers get the ball they lob it to the lone striker

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Trent A-A is out for at least three weeks with minor knee ligament damage, so things are very thin at the back for Liverpool right now. Tsimikas and Robertson are training and maybe back next month. But given the AFCON and Asian Cup losses this is probably the thinnest the squad will be all season. Klopp can still put out a good team but at best it's an A- squad.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Ah, yes.

These days, unfortunately, I am more than familiar with this concern.

Well yes. As are United as well.

 

[timber]

While browsing today's news was quite sad to learn that Sven Goran Eriksson has inoperable pancreatic cancer and has probably less than a year left.

 

[daneoni]

Pancreatic is genuinely the worst. Its one of those vital organs that you simply cant afford going wrong.

I hope his remaining time is comfortable and meaningful.