The Aircraft Thread!

[Huntn]

What about sound?

I know there are prop guys out there for whom the full roar of a radial engine is magnificent, but for me the full range of a jet engine is the best music in the world - particularly at startup.

Radials have a magnificent historical sound kind of like a souped up car that makes a lot of noise, like Bullit's Mustang, but better. Jet engines are for nice quiet cruising. There is one heck of a lot of noise suppression in modern jet engines as compared to the 1960s. I spent a lot of time in a turbo-prop (EP-3) which are noisy in comparison to a jet.

My first Navy Airplane

I could not help but post the sound of car power​

 

[BugeyeSTI]

Always liked this one:

 

[Glideslope]

Radials have a magnificent historical sound kind of like a souped up car that makes a lot of noise, like Bullit's Mustang, but better. Jet engines are for nice quiet cruising. There is one heck of a lot of noise suppression in modern jet engines as compared to the 1960s. I spent a lot of time in a turbo-prop (EP-3) which are noisy in comparison to a jet.

My first Navy Airplane

I could not help but post the sound of car power​

I’ll bet you had other stuff to listen for in that EP-3 anyway.

I‘m afraid I’m going to have to give the all time best Mustang exhaust to the 2020 GT 500. The Flat Plane 5.2L in the GT 350 is a close second, but the GT 500 is a monster. New owners on a good strip with cool temps are doing 10.7 @ 129mph in the 1/4. Who could have imagined such deeds in 1968 with their GT and its 390.

 

[D.T.]

New owners on a good strip with cool temps are doing 10.7 @ 129mph in the 1/4. Who could have imagined such deeds in 1968 with their GT and its 390.

Guy made a pass - brand new car, not even broken in - at 10.6x but at 133, that's serious MPH, and he had the optional aero installed (TP, not a CF car), that probably killed 1-2 MPH. That was with just a 1.7x 60 foot, they get some DRs on the car, drop that 60' to a 1.5, that's 0.2 - 0.3 on the long end, so dipping down into the 10.3x

 

[Glideslope]

Guy made a pass - brand new car, not even broken in - at 10.6x but at 133, that's serious MPH, and he had the optional aero installed (TP, not a CF car), that probably killed 1-2 MPH. That was with just a 1.7x 60 foot, they get some DRs on the car, drop that 60' to a 1.5, that's 0.2 - 0.3 on the long end, so dipping down into the 10.3x

Amazing.

 

[baypharm]

Another vote for the formidable B58. I remember getting some models when I was a kid. We lived near WPAFB and would see them fly every now and then. Would love to buy one.

 

[cube]

https://www.euronews.com/2019/12/07...m-boeing-for-defective-parts-on-737-ng-planes

 

[Glideslope]

Another vote for the formidable B58. I remember getting some models when I was a kid. We lived near WPAFB and would see them fly every now and then. Would love to buy one.

They were a handful to fly. I believe the landing speed even when on the light side was close to 170 Kts. They ate brakes as well.

 

[a2jack]

Electric L-20 Beaver.

 

[Glideslope]

Electric L-20 Beaver. View attachment 882201

Fascinating. ?

 

[Huntn]

Always liked this one:

View attachment 880833

One on the left is the sexiest.

 

[BugeyeSTI]

One on the left is the sexiest.

Here's another sexy sibling...

 

[dmr727]

Here's another sexy sibling...
View attachment 882258

Grandfather flew those. As you can imagine it's my favorite plane of WWII.

 

[Glideslope]

Grandfather flew those. As you can imagine it's my favorite plane of WWII.

That's a tough aircraft to fly in an engine out situation as well. You're grandfather was a true stick and rudder pilot (with what little rudder authority the P-38 had) in that beautiful flying machine.

 

[CooperBox]

Yes it is. Can’t fault Boeing for the **** design issues with the Trent 1000.
Perfect example of engines manufacturers promising on numbers they can’t deliver. Materials Technology is not maturing as fast as their claims. Wear issues are the common feature today. Let’s hope GE is on the mark with the new stator vane design in the 9X. These NEO’s need more testing on the frame flying IMO. The industry is too dependent on test stand data. While I acknowledge it’s benefits with cost savings nothing recreates real world better than putting it on the wing and flying it. The GE 90 was the early success it was due to “the old Boeing” insisting on extensive flight time complementing the test stand.

I know the Trent series inside-out with the exception of the T1000, so I won't comment further.......
You bring up some interesting points, not the least being, "The industry is too dependent on test stand data", and "Nothing recreates real world better than putting it on the wing and flying it".
Having said that, I know from experience that even the most successful new test programs can throw up surprise problems once an aircraft is in service. The IAE V2500 A320 program was very intense and proved to be one of the most successful ever, but once in service the gremlins started to pounce - not specifically on the airframe side I hasten to add.
I've been involved in a number of new aircraft test programs from early Concorde test days through to all of the Airbus series with the exception of the Neos. Have some interesting tales to tell that's for sure.

 

[Glideslope]

I know the Trent series inside-out with the exception of the T1000, so I won't comment further.......
You bring up some interesting points, not the least being, "The industry is too dependent on test stand data", and "Nothing recreates real world better than putting it on the wing and flying it".
Having said that, I know from experience that even the most successful new test programs can throw up surprise problems once an aircraft is in service. The IAE V2500 A320 program was very intense and proved to be one of the most successful ever, but once in service the gremlins started to pounce - not specifically on the airframe side I hasten to add.
I've been involved in a number of new aircraft test programs from early Concorde test days through to all of the Airbus series with the exception of the Neos. Have some intersting tales to tell that's for sure.

Absolutely. RR , P&W, and GE are all in similar situations. The RR XWB is a nice engine. My point was not just getting back to more "flying testbed" cycles, but Materials Technology" in the NEO developments. IMO, the Trent 1000, 9X, and Pratt's GTF were hung under wings too early. I'm not a fan of revenue flights being used as testbeds.

I'm somewhat familiar with the V2500. IMO, it was different than todays issues relating to a lack of progress in Coatings Development, and issues with Metallurgy Development. IMO, I see the V2500 as more of an Engineering Challenge having RR, P&W, JAEC, MTU, and Fiat Avio all having their hands in the cookie jar at the same time. No question adding extra blades to the RC34B HP Compressor was a challenge. I'm just of the opinion it was more getting Teams on the same page than putting rushed designs into service with not ready for prime time component composition.

Thanks for the post. Would have loved to be in your position.

 

[CooperBox]

Absolutely. RR , P&W, and GE are all in similar situations. The RR XWB is a nice engine. My point was not just getting back to more "flying testbed" cycles, but Materials Technology" in the NEO developments. IMO, the Trent 1000, 9X, and Pratt's GTF were hung under wings too early. I'm not a fan of revenue flights being used as testbeds.

I'm somewhat familiar with the V2500. IMO, it was different than todays issues relating to a lack of progress in Coatings Development, and issues with Metallurgy Development. IMO, I see the V2500 as more of an Engineering Challenge having RR, P&W, JAEC, MTU, and Fiat Avio all having their hands in the cookie jar at the same time. No question adding extra blades to the RC34B HP Compressor was a challenge. I'm just of the opinion it was more getting Teams on the same page than putting rushed designs into service with not ready for prime time component composition.

Thanks for the post. Would have loved to be in your position.

Re, "I'm just of the opinion it was more getting Teams on the same page".
I can't speak for the early design stages, but working with the five (hence the 'V' in 2500) party companies of the consortium was unbelievably smooth, and I can't recall any noteworthy difficulties in the working relationships, apart from the significant time differences between Derby UK, Connecticut USA, and Japan. Less so between France, Germany and Italy.
Prior to E.I.S., difficulties were being encountered with HPC bleed valves. Relatively easy enough to change out, but the added problem was..... which one? There were four (3 on the HPC7 stage, and one HPC10) but with no mechanical indication of whether the valves were stuck in the open or closed position - the latter position inevitably leading to a failed engine start. The problem was rapidly understood to be contamination from minute particles of the HPC abrasive lining.
Several modifications were introduced to the bleed valves, with questionable success, but failed to cure the problem. I recall in a meeting one day that a young, very bright Airbus engineer suggested to the engine manufacturer as an interim measure to redesign the bleed valve; to introduce a mechanical indication to show either a closed or open position of the valve, which obviously wouldn't cure the base problem, but would certainly facilitate maintenance and immediately alert ground staff to which of the 4 valves was sticking, ensuring a more rapid replacement. This idea was turned down by more mature, 'experienced' engineeers, to which the young engineer humbly suggested that non-compliance with his suggestion would lead to major problems - not the least being delays and flight cancellations once the aircraft went into service. And my goodness, didn't that young engineer's prophecy come true with a vengeance!
Multiple delays and flight cancellations were recorded over the following years for that same issue.
I assisted with the first A320-231 deliveries to Adria Airways in 1989. Some 8 years later I was requested to assist a new A320-231 operator in the middle east. I attended the delivery flight departure of the new aircraft, but was unable to be on-site the following day for the Airline's inaugural revenue service flight. I rapidly learnt that the flight had been cancelled due to the failure of one engine to start, due to....... an HPC bleed valve stuck closed! There were many dignataries on board including the country's prime minister, who were certainly not amused. This experience has since reminded me of the old adage, 'With age comes wisdom'. Generally true, but in engineering not always the case.
There's a fascinating post scriptum to the above event, that I can recount if still of interest to some.

 

[a2jack]

Yes, please continue all. This is a fascinating conversation. a2

 

[Glideslope]

Re, "I'm just of the opinion it was more getting Teams on the same page".
I can't speak for the early design stages, but working with the five (hence the 'V' in 2500) party companies of the consortium was unbelievably smooth, and I can't recall any noteworthy difficulties in the working relationships, apart from the significant time differences between Derby UK, Connecticut USA, and Japan. Less so between France, Germany and Italy.
Prior to E.I.S., difficulties were being encountered with HPC bleed valves. Relatively easy enough to change out, but the added problem was..... which one? There were four (3 on the HPC7 stage, and one HPC10) but with no mechanical indication of whether the valves were stuck in the open or closed position - the latter position inevitably leading to a failed engine start. The problem was rapidly understood to be contamination from minute particles of the HPC abrasive lining.
Several modifications were introduced to the bleed valves, with questionable success, but failed to cure the problem. I recall in a meeting one day that a young, very bright Airbus engineer suggested to the engine manufacturer as an interim measure to redesign the bleed valve; to introduce a mechanical indication to show either a closed or open position of the valve, which obviously wouldn't cure the base problem, but would certainly facilitate maintenance and immediately alert ground staff to which of the 4 valves was sticking, ensuring a more rapid replacement. This idea was turned down by more mature, 'experienced' engineeers, to which the young engineer humbly suggested that non-compliance with his suggestion would lead to major problems - not the least being delays and flight cancellations once the aircraft went into service. And my goodness, didn't that young engineer's prophecy come true with a vengeance!
Multiple delays and flight cancellations were recorded over the following years for that same issue.
I assisted with the first A320-231 deliveries to Adria Airways in 1989. Some 8 years later I was requested to assist a new A320-231 operator in the middle east. I attended the delivery flight departure of the new aircraft, but was unable to be on-site the following day for the Airline's inaugural revenue service flight. I rapidly learnt that the flight had been cancelled due to the failure of one engine to start, due to....... an HPC bleed valve stuck closed! There were many dignataries on board including the country's prime minister, who were certainly not amused. This experience has since reminded me of the old adage, 'With age comes wisdom'. Generally true, but in engineering not always the case.
There's a fascinating post scriptum to the above event, that I can recount if still of interest to some.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I was not aware there were ever issues with the HPC Lining.

I’d like your opinion regarding the relevance in today’s industry regarding your experiences with communication between Engineering Age Differences. I sence at times a lack of respect between the generational divides today. Are you still consulting or retired fully?

 

[cube]

China Eastern to Become First Airline Flying Airbus A350 Touchscreen Cockpit Displays - Avionics International

China Eastern has become the first airline to take delivery of an Airbus A350 equipped with touchscreen cockpit displays provided by Thales, accepting the upgraded flight deck during a ceremony […]

www.aviationtoday.com

 

[cube]

NASA says a clock error sent Boeing's new astronaut spaceship veering wildly off course during its maiden voyage

After Boeing's CST-100 Starliner successfully rocketed toward space, a timing error made the spaceship fire the wrong thrusters at the wrong time.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[CooperBox]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I was not aware there were ever issues with the HPC Lining.

I’d like your opinion regarding the relevance in today’s industry regarding your experiences with communication between Engineering Age Differences. I sence at times a lack of respect between the generational divides today. Are you still consulting or retired fully?

To the best of my knowledge there were no problems with the HPC lining per se, it was more to do with issues relating to bedding-in of new engines coupled with the tolerances of new bleed valves. It was a rather random phenomenon. It became clear that after initial shake-down flights, if all 4 HPC handling bleed valves were removed and replaced with new units, there was a greater probability that subsequent valve stiction and hence start problems would not be encountered. Some new aircraft never experienced any such problem prior to delivery. Some operators though continued to experience occasional hung engine starts due to stiction of the HPC7 valve, and with subsequent new aircraft deliveries, requested all four handling bleed valves be replaced with new units prior to the delivery flight.
My own theory is that once an aircraft entered into service, the condition may have been exacerbated by incorrect engine handling by ground crews. On more than one occasion I witnessed after cold engine starts, an engine being taken up to power and even slam accels/decels performed before the recommended several minute warm-up at idle power. Under these far from ideal conditions in terms of core engine temperatures, the HPC in particular could excessively rub against the casing, creating unwanted loss of casing liner material.

To address your other query, I am indeed now fully retired, so not ideally qualified to comment on todays reaction between different generations in the engineering workplace. My experience was that there was generally an excellent rapport across the generational divide.

 

[Glideslope]

To the best of my knowledge there were no problems with the HPC lining per se, it was more to do with issues relating to bedding-in of new engines coupled with the tolerances of new bleed valves. It was a rather random phenomenon. It became clear that after initial shake-down flights, if all 4 HPC handling bleed valves were removed and replaced with new units, there was a greater probability that subsequent valve stiction and hence start problems would not be encountered. Some new aircraft never experienced any such problem prior to delivery. Some operators though continued to experience occasional hung engine starts due to stiction of the HPC7 valve, and with subsequent new aircraft deliveries, requested all four handling bleed valves be replaced with new units prior to the delivery flight.
My own theory is that once an aircraft entered into service, the condition may have been exacerbated by incorrect engine handling by ground crews. On more than one occasion I witnessed after cold engine starts, an engine being taken up to power and even slam accels/decels performed before the recommended several minute warm-up at idle power. Under these far from ideal conditions in terms of core engine temperatures, the HPC in particular could excessively rub against the casing, creating unwanted loss of casing liner material.

To address your other query, I am indeed now fully retired, so not ideally qualified to comment on todays reaction between different generations in the engineering workplace. My experience was that there was generally an excellent rapport across the generational divide.

Thank you. Yes, cold starts in a manner you're describing could have definitely been an issue. Do you feel there was a rush to to put the V2500 under the wing that contributed to inadequate ground crew procedures?

 

[CooperBox]

Thank you. Yes, cold starts in a manner you're describing could have definitely been an issue. Do you feel there was a rush to to put the V2500 under the wing that contributed to inadequate ground crew procedures?

No, not at all.
Problems may possibly be exacerbated on in-service aircraft by time constraints.
On one event I witnessed, I was called to an airport to assist troubleshoot an aircraft which had been a.o.g. for 1 day, and with several fuel system component changes prior to my arrival the problem had not been resolved.
It took me minutes to identify the problem, and suggest the LRU to be replaced. Unit was received 3hrs later by which time the oat had dropped to below zero, and with a rare snow storm at this mediterranean location, the task was completed at 02:30hrs. The engine started sucessfully, and it was whilst in the cockpit with the maintenance guy tasked for the engine run, that I observed the slam accels/decels on an exceedingly cold engine, which I immediately interrupted. After an acceptable warm-up period at idle power, the remaining checks were performed satisfactorily, and the aircraft released for service.
Time constraints could well be a contributing factor in certain cases.

 

[Glideslope]

No, not at all.
Problems may possibly be exacerbated on in-service aircraft by time constraints.
On one event I witnessed, I was called to an airport to assist troubleshoot an aircraft which had been a.o.g. for 1 day, and with several fuel system component changes prior to my arrival the problem had not been resolved.
It took me minutes to identify the problem, and suggest the LRU to be replaced. Unit was received 3hrs later by which time the oat had dropped to below zero, and with a rare snow storm at this mediterranean location, the task was completed at 02:30hrs. The engine started sucessfully, and it was whilst in the cockpit with the maintenance guy tasked for the engine run, that I observed the slam accels/decels on an exceedingly cold engine, which I immediately interrupted. After an acceptable warm-up period at idle power, the remaining checks were performed satisfactorily, and the aircraft released for service.
Time constraints could well be a contributing factor in certain cases.

Agreed. Time Constraints are an issue. What LRU did you identify for the replacement?