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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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35K euro vs 42K euro

That it is a bit cheaper does not make it an acceptable car when you look closer.

$26,495 vs. $44,950. That's nearly a $20K price difference, which is what I'd call significant price difference for the American buyer...which is the target customer for the Mustang.

As I said, there are a whole lot of different types of cars out there, and(thankfully) not every one of them is built exactly as one particular poster in this thread would have them built.

Once again, though, we seem to be talking in circles, or as @A.Goldberg said we are moving the goalposts. I should know by now not to even try...
 

cube

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May 10, 2004
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$26,495 vs. $44,950. That's nearly a $20K price difference, which is what I'd call significant price difference for the American buyer...which is the target customer for the Mustang.
What holds true in the US does not necessarily hold true in Europe.

This seemed to be a budget Mustang for the US and an acceptable Mustang for Europe. I saw more Europe being the motivator. It should get more traction than the V8 here, but it falls short.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
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Boston
I see:

- M240 3.0: 7,8l/100km, 179g CO2/km, 340HP
- 440i 3.0: 7,4l/100km, 172g CO2/km, 326HP
- Mustang 2.3: 9,0l/100km, 199g CO2/km, 290HP

35K euro vs 42K euro

That it is a bit cheaper does not make it an acceptable car when you look closer.

Look closer at what? The gas mileage or the car itself?

I would imagine it's the same engine, the US specs are 310hp, unless the measure power by a different protocol, or possibly they tuned down the power..? but then you'd probably expect better gas mileage. Or maybe they're not using 93 Octane? The foreign Ford websites have remarkably little information. As for the discrepancy in MPG thats very possibly due to the EPA and whoever does MPG testing in the EU have a different test protocols.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
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That the Mustang seems quite inefficient.

Agreed, though I’m not sure why the Euro numbers of HP, torque, mpg, are so different... though mpg testing depends on what the protocol is. But I think it’s important to remember most people buying a M-BMW or Mustang don’t have fuel economy at the top of the priorities. Otherwise they’d be buying a Prius.
 

cube

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Agreed, though I’m not sure why the Euro numbers of HP, torque, mpg, are so different... though mpg testing depends on what the protocol is. But I think it’s important to remember most people buying a M-BMW or Mustang don’t have fuel economy at the top of the priorities. Otherwise they’d be buying a Prius.
Well, F1 cars are over 50% efficient. It should matter if they care about the engineering.
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I don’t know, probably a result of a marketing think tank.
But if you are looking at efficiency you are probably not looking at a Mustang. Probably a Prius or something (yuk).
You would not look if it was the V8, but maybe if it is the 2.3l (in Europe).
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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Kentucky
Why do they call the 2.3l engine "EcoBoost" ?

That's been Ford's brand name now for their small(er) displacement turbo engines that are intended to replace larger NA engines. The 4 cylinder Ecoboost line is used in some traditional V6 applications(like the base Mustang) while the Ecoboost V6 is used in some V8 applications.

It's called "eco" because-all else being equal-fewer cylinders will always be more efficient than more(plus the inherent economy advantages of FI for a given engine displacement), and "boost" because all Ecoboost engines are "boosted."

My dad has a V6 Ecoboost in his MKS, and my BIL has one in his F150. My BIL in particular loves that it's more efficient to drive around just as a people hauler(albeit they usually use the Pilot for that), but also pulls the boat without breaking a sweat.

Comparing an F1 engine to a street engine in terms of efficiency is a huge fallacy. I don't think your average driver wants to deal with running 100+ octane(R+M/2) gas to deal with the compression ratios encountered in them(all else being equal, higher CRs=better efficiency), or with needing to keep it at 8K+ rpms to make any power(F1 engines tend to have super short stroke engines, which allows them to rev like crazy and make crazy amounts of power at high RPMs, but with almost no low end torque). Also, I doubt your average driver would be happy with an engine that costs more than a complete new base model Civic.
 
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A.Goldberg

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Jan 31, 2015
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That's been Ford's brand name now for their small(er) displacement turbo engines that are intended to replace larger NA engines. The 4 cylinder Ecoboost line is used in some traditional V6 applications(like the base Mustang) while the Ecoboost V6 is used in some V8 applications.

It's called "eco" because-all else being equal-fewer cylinders will always be more efficient than more(plus the inherent economy advantages of FI for a given engine displacement), and "boost" because all Ecoboost engines are "boosted."

My dad has a V6 Ecoboost in his MKS, and my BIL has one in his F150. My BIL in particular loves that it's more efficient to drive around just as a people hauler(albeit they usually use the Pilot for that), but also pulls the boat without breaking a sweat.

Comparing an F1 engine to a street engine in terms of efficiency is a huge fallacy. I don't think your average driver wants to deal with running 100+ octane(R+M/2) gas to deal with the compression ratios encountered in them(all else being equal, higher CRs=better efficiency), or with needing to keep it at 8K+ rpms to make any power(F1 engines tend to have super short stroke engines, which allows them to rev like crazy and make crazy amounts of power at high RPMs, but with almost no low end torque). Also, I doubt your average driver would be happy with an engine that costs more than a complete new base model Civic.

Yeah. I give up. The autistic tunnel vision and rigidity is taking its toll.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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It's not a fallacy. The point of F1 is to advance ICE car technology.
Did you read what I wrote about how an F1 engine is different from a street engine?

If you still contend that they are in any way comparable, you are showing complete and total ignorance of ICE design and the compromise inherent in every engine design.
 

cube

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Production car efficiency:

Traditional: 12-30%
Insight,Prius: 40%
Electric: 77-82%

F1 cars are dual-hybrids, which have not been delivered to the market yet (but sold out).
 
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cube

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May 10, 2004
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I see:

- M240i 3.0: 7,8l/100km, 179g CO2/km, 340HP
- 440i 3.0: 7,4l/100km, 172g CO2/km, 326HP
- Mustang 2.3: 9,0l/100km, 199g CO2/km, 290HP

35K euro vs 42K euro
Same engine:

Ford Focus ST 2.3: 7,9l/100km, 179g CO2/km, 280HP

29K euro


Ford Focus RS 2.3: 7,7l/100km, 175g CO2/km, 349HP

But it costs 40K euro
 

Bug-Creator

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2011
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Not a Ford expert, AFAIK the RS has 4WD, a lot weight reduced parts and an extreme aero package.

The ST is just a "normal" Focus with a bigger engine.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68030
Jan 31, 2015
2,549
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Boston
Production car efficiency:

Traditional: 12-30%
Insight,Prius: 40%
Electric: 77-82%

F1 cars are dual-hybrids, which have not been delivered to the market yet (but sold out).

The Mazda Skyactiv-X engine is supposed to have 56% thermal efficiency. (It also has nothing to do with F1.)
 

cube

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So a proper SkyActiv-X full hybrid should be about 54% efficient before even getting into heat recovery.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky

Did you even read the linked article? Either you didn't, or you're just grasping at the straws for anything to support a point that really has no relevance.

Of course racing technology comes down and can be used to improve street cars-that's been true since the beginning of automobile racing.

It doesn't change the fact that you keep asking why street cars can't get the thermal efficiency of an F1 engine.

Racing engines are NOT street engines. If I could put that in bold 50 point font, I would. That's true of any racing discipline. As I've mentioned numerous times(and I'm not sure if this is even registering with you), F1 engines tend to have extremely short strokes(they are "oversquare" meaning the bore is much larger than the stroke). A short stroke engine is inherently quite efficient as it minimizes the frictional losses from the pistons moving in the bores. Short stroke engines also tend to be able to rev to very high rotational speeds. As engines tend toward oversquare designs, torque at low RPMs suffers. This is a common criticism of Japanese engines, which tend to also be oversquare, although not to the level of an F1 engine. Most people don't want to have to rev their engine to 8K rpms to get any amount of torque from it. This is in contrast to your typical "square" American V8, which is a design known for low end torque.

Second, common to most racing disciplines, you have very high compression ratios. It's become expected even for a lot of economy cars in the US to have to use 92+ octane(r+m/2), but when you get into the range of 14:1 or better(NA), or crazy boost pressures, you start needing 100+ r+m/2. That's not practical for street use. Although F1 doesn't allow it(nor does NASCAR anymore), some racing disciplines still allow leaded gasoline, which is a quick and easy to get those kind of octane ratings-of course that's illegal on the street AFAIK in most if not all of the developed world.

Again, races cars are NOT street cars. Your typical F1 car is going to spend a good portion of its time at or near its top speed. In pretty much all types of racing, you're making the assumption that you spend a good portion of your time at or near WOT. Things like camshaft profiles can be optimized for these conditions and both give crazy amounts of power as well as high thermal efficiency, but it's useless for driving on the street. This is at the other extreme of the technology spectrum, but with an aggressive enough cam profile I could probably easily get 50% more peak horsepower out of the tractor engine in my MG without changing anything else, but I'd also have a car with a rough 2K idle and with no guts below 4K.

Finally, racing engines get more attention than any street engine could ever hope to get. It's nothing for an engine to get torn down after even just a few hundred miles. A racing engine might have an expected life of 5000 miles or less. Now, people get upset if a car engine doesn't make 250K with nothing more than an occasional oil change and maybe some spark plugs every 100K. You can do thing to increase the thermal efficiency when an engine gets a level of attention that is not practical in a street car.

The more you babble on about this, the more I'm convinced that either you really have no clue what you're talking about, or just like seeing yourself post endlessly.

And to close this out, if I haven't made this abundantly clear, RACE CARS ARE NOT STREET CARS!
 
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