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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,003
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
I had an old Ford Mondao that never got serviced for the last 70k of its life. It was such an old beat up car (dent in every panel) I never really loved it. When I bought my next car I gave it to a friend as he was on hard times. He drove it another year or so before it died on him. Still not serviced.
 

robbieduncan

Moderator emeritus
Jul 24, 2002
25,611
893
Harrogate
When I bought my current car (BMW 525d) 8 years ago I had a complete fluids change. I don't think it's asked for a change since. If it has it's only once. Its computer tracks time and milage/load on the engine and will ask for it when it needs it.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
I hadn't really noted my mileage, as of late, when I do drive my car, I'm not really thinking about anything else other than the experience, wind in my face, the V8 rumble ... but anyway ...

I did actually check it this weekend, hahahaha, wow, I'm approaching 9 months of ownership (purchased early Aug '19), and I've put 2800 miles on it. :oops:

Of course, in the last 60 days, it's been used even less, but just my general use month-to-month is low, and for almost all major trips, we use the "family ride". Heck, even the latter is way down on mileage, canceled a couple of trips, still waiting to see how this pans out for our scheduled Keys trip, but if that doesn't happen, it's going to be about the same as my car in terms of monthly mileage (actually less!)
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
Tomorrow is the day at 11AM, Either finalizing the SHO or Raptor.

It’s done. I finalized the car On Monday. And I went with the SHO.

So here’s why and what’s planned:

The dealership with the Raptor didn’t move on the price as suspected. They were willing to waive the ‘state tax and $1200 dealer fee‘, and that’s it. And I totally get it, it’s a ‘specialty vehicle’, they obviously are in deep. (They offered a ceramic package to be included, but that’s not enough to entice me.)

Maybe I was trying to over convince myself that I really wanted this truck, even though I’m not a ‘truck guy’ and never have been, But I don’t think there really is anything much else like the Raptor out there, and that’s an experience I passed for something that I wanted to ultimately customize. In regards to the Raptor versus the SHO, the Raptor has way more technology on board, but it’s probably a little overkill for what I would want it for. But Props to Ford on what they are able to achieve with the Raptor and it’s nothing short of being an amazing truck that literally has it all.

When I buy cars, I like to modify them. I try to do it tastefully, and the Raptor would not allow room for any add-ons. It would be ‘as is’, and I think having the familiarity with the SHO, I know what it’s capable of with Performance/power, and there’s loads of aftermarket potential. The dealer with SHO moved on the price, but I think their price was already competitive to begin with given this is factory new.

So what’s next:

The 2019 SHO’s actually did not include the ‘performance package’, Ford essentially was liquidating what they had left, and they sold them with the 401A safety/amenity package only.

So, one little tradition I have, is I don’t take delivery on my vehicles the day of ‘I close the car sale’, I actually will send my car off first to a performance shop in my city, that will deck it out to my spec’ for an element of surprise when I first can drive it and here’s what I have coming that Will be added/replaced within the next two weeks:

Cosmetics:

*3M Window Tint (25%)
*WeatherTech front hood rock chip guard
*GTechniq Ceramic kit (Wheels/vehicle paint)

Performance:

*Stage 3 Motorpsorts Ceramic brake kit/13.8” slotted/drilled rotors

*Adding Bridgestone Serenity Turanzas ‘All-seasonal’ (Scrapping the Goodyear R-SA stock tires)

*UPR dual catch can

*H&R Sport lowering springs

*Livernois 93 Octane tune w/3 Bar map sensor, thermostat and Plugs

[The TuneShould add approximately 40/50 HP with 75TQ...Give or take.]



Pics to follow.... :cool:
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,003
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
It’s done. I finalized the car On Monday. And I went with the SHO.

So here’s why and what’s planned:

The dealership with the Raptor didn’t move on the price as suspected. They were willing to waive the ‘state tax and $1200 dealer fee‘, and that’s it. And I totally get it, it’s a ‘specialty vehicle’, they obviously are in deep. (They offered a ceramic package to be included, but that’s not enough to entice me.)

Maybe I was trying to over convince myself that I really wanted this truck, even though I’m not a ‘truck guy’ and never have been, But I don’t think there really is anything much else like the Raptor out there, and that’s an experience I passed for something that I wanted to ultimately customize. In regards to the Raptor versus the SHO, the Raptor has way more technology on board, but it’s probably a little overkill for what I would want it for. But Props to Ford on what they are able to achieve with the Raptor and it’s nothing short of being an amazing truck that literally has it all.

When I buy cars, I like to modify them. I try to do it tastefully, and the Raptor would not allow room for any add-ons. It would be ‘as is’, and I think having the familiarity with the SHO, I know what it’s capable of with Performance/power, and there’s loads of aftermarket potential. The dealer with SHO moved on the price, but I think their price was already competitive to begin with given this is factory new.

So what’s next:

The 2019 SHO’s actually did not include the ‘performance package’, Ford essentially was liquidating what they had left, and they sold them with the 401A safety/amenity package only.

So, one little tradition I have, is I don’t take delivery on my vehicles the day of ‘I close the car sale’, I actually will send my car off first to a performance shop in my city, that will deck it out to my spec’ for an element of surprise when I first can drive it and here’s what I have coming that Will be added/replaced within the next two weeks:

Cosmetics:

*3M Window Tint (25%)
*WeatherTech front hood rock chip guard
*GTechniq Ceramic kit (Wheels/vehicle paint)

Performance:

*Stage 3 Motorpsorts Ceramic brake kit/13.8” slotted/drilled rotors

*Adding Bridgestone Serenity Turanzas ‘All-seasonal’ (Scrapping the Goodyear R-SA stock tires)

*UPR dual catch can

*H&R Sport lowering springs

*Livernois 93 Octane tune w/3 Bar map sensor, thermostat and Plugs

[The TuneShould add approximately 40/50 HP with 75TQ...Give or take.]



Pics to follow.... :cool:
Enjoy. Hopefully it’s not too long before you can actually put some miles on it.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
Enjoy. Hopefully it’s not too long before you can actually put some miles on it.

Thank you. The Weather has been all over the place, it was 82°F on Friday, and today only reached 47° F. The good news though, no snow and the trees are in full bloom! Perfect time to enjoy the car for many months to come.
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
So what I’m thinking I’m going to do, is on May 1, have my decision made of which vehicle I want, walk-in on ‘day one’ when the dealership opens, Negotiate, and I guarantee they will bend over backwards to sell cars, because of the Loss of sales, plus the time both of those vehicles have already been sitting on their lot for at least 6 weeks .

The dealership with the Raptor didn’t move on the price as suspected.


Right, when you said the top post (underlined emphasis mine), I was going to say, don't be surprised when they still don't budge on the Raptor. Any SVT product, there's really no negotiation, it doesn't matter how desperate things get. Those vehicles have special floorplanning, so they're just not factored in to the normal dealer cost basis.

Enjoy your Taurus. :)
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky
Side note-

I saw a first gen Taurus SHO(89-91) out on the roads the other day.

It was pretty ratty looking and unfortunately seemed to belong to someone who didn't really know/appreciate what it was.

It's simultaneously a treat to see one of those still on the road, but also a shame to see one treated like just any other car...
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
Fun story:

Yesterday was Cinco de Mayo, and I thought about supporting local Mexican restaurants in the area, but they were so packed For ‘curbside pick up’, I would’ve been waiting probably an hour and a half, so I ventured over to Outback steakhouse for a pick up order.

Anyways, I pull into one of their curbside pick up stalls, and about three stalls over to the right of me was a ‘Ruby-red’ Ford Raptor. As I’m sitting in my car, I thought to myself, (“No way is that the one I just looked at last Friday, and Surely the dealership didn’t sell it.)

So being the naturally curious guy I am by nature, I rolled down my window and yelled over to the guy and said ‘Hey nice Raptor..’

And sure enough, the guy says ‘thanks and that he just purchased it’. We talked for about 10 minutes (with practicing ‘social distancing‘😁), and he mentioned he’s putting a ‘Baja package’ on it, and he had his eye on this truck for a while, but was waiting for the dealerships to reopen. I told him I looked at that same truck, but purchased a red ruby SHO.

Long story short, we were just two car enthusiasts talking about the Eco-boost Motor potential and how much we really liked the red ruby color being a ‘stand out’ with black accents, but the Raptor was more in tune of being his ‘daily‘ and he has plans for off-road use with it. Super nice guy, he was an engineer and is doing all the customs himself with with his 11-year-old son. (I told him I was having extensive mods to the SHO, but I’m not interested to do it myself, that’s why I pay somebody do it for me.😁)

So in the end, everything happens for a reason, and I’m glad he ended up with the Raptor and I ended up with SHO. The timing of how this all played out is incredible if you think about it.

But it truly is, a small world.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky
Got a couple new toys in the mail today-it's a shame the MG is in the shop so I can't play with either

IMG_1088.jpg
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky
I joked about the timing light looking like it came off an 80s arcade game.

I really wanted the tach/dwell meter(which was new in box), but the guy selling it to me offered me the timing light with it for not much more money. For practical use, I think my much newer dial-back light is a lot nicer and easier to use, but this one is a thing of beauty and I'm glad to get it.
 

CooperBox

macrumors 68000
Got a couple new toys in the mail today-it's a shame the MG is in the shop so I can't play with either

View attachment 912714
Buns, wow - this brings back more than a few memories! Certainly not the same model, but the last time I used a timing light was some 40+ years ago, on an MGB too.
Although I never owned a 'B', at one time I was actively looking for a reasonably priced Healey 3000 but failed to find one suitable - always regret that! Then I was offered a Healey 100/4 but the condition left a bit to be desired and the owner wouldn't accept my offer. Besides that I thought that getting a 100/4 over an Austin Healey 3000 was a bit like purchasing a Tudor when one really wanted a Rolex. ;)
A few weeks later I saw an ad for an MGC, and thought if I can't find a 3000 the 'C' at least should be a little more refined and certainly more comfortable. And it was, albeit without the acclaimed wow-factor of the 3000.
The price was right, being sold almost as-new from a KLM pilot near London Heathrow, who apparently was never home long enough to really enjoy it. I owned the car for almost 2 years, selling it when I was transfered overseas by my employer. A powerful, sturdy vehicle which gave great pleasure. Must try and find a picture of it to post here.
 

bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky
Buns, wow - this brings back more than a few memories! Certainly not the same model, but the last time I used a timing light was some 40+ years ago, on an MGB too.
Although I never owned a 'B', at one time I was actively looking for a reasonably priced Healey 3000 but failed to find one suitable - always regret that! Then I was offered a Healey 100/4 but the condition left a bit to be desired and the owner wouldn't accept my offer. Besides that I thought that getting a 100/4 over an Austin Healey 3000 was a bit like purchasing a Tudor when one really wanted a Rolex. ;)
A few weeks later I saw an ad for an MGC, and thought if I can't find a 3000 the 'C' at least should be a little more refined and certainly more comfortable. And it was, albeit without the acclaimed wow-factor of the 3000.
The price was right, being sold almost as-new from a KLM pilot near London Heathrow, who apparently was never home long enough to really enjoy it. I owned the car for almost 2 years, selling it when I was transfered overseas by my employer. A powerful, sturdy vehicle which gave great pleasure. Must try and find a picture of it to post here.

Would love to see pictures of your C!

I'd still like to have a C one of these days. They're certainly a very different car than a B-my impression of the one I've driven(which admittedly was an automatic) was that it was a nice lazy cruiser that made for a pleasant drive, but didn't feel anywhere as nimble as a B. There is something of the "sleeper" factor to it, although the lumpy bonnet does sort of give it away also.

When I shopped for the B, I started out looking for a 3000, but put that idea away pretty quickly when I saw prices. Of the 100/4, 100/6, and 3000, I actually like the look of the 100/4 the best but you have to love the big 6 cylinder in the 100/4 and 3000. They are hot, loud, and overall give the feeling of a "pile of parts moving in loose formation", though.

I still stick with the B as the best all around compromise when shopping for one of these. It's small and light enough to be fun and nimble, but just big enough to be practical and not have to fold into a pretzel to get in.
 

Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
After what felt like an interminable wait, I dropped my Charger off at the tuner this evening for the supercharger install. If all goes well, I'll have it back Monday or Tuesday.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
After what felt like an interminable wait, I dropped my Charger off at the tuner this evening for the supercharger install. If all goes well, I'll have it back Monday or Tuesday.

I’m genuinely excited for you. Not also being a fellow Charger owner like yourself, but I’m curious to know your thoughts Of the ‘before & After’ and any pictures you can share. You probably won’t get much sleep over the weekend, At least, I know I wouldn’t.😁
 
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D.T.

macrumors G4
Original poster
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,467
Vilano Beach, FL
After what felt like an interminable wait, I dropped my Charger off at the tuner this evening for the supercharger install. If all goes well, I'll have it back Monday or Tuesday.


At least it's just a few days. I kind of chuckled when @Relentless Power said "extensive mods" above, I consider most of the things he said as weekend bolt-ons. I dropped of my Supra, and didn't see it again for 3 months ... o_O
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
8,353
6,496
Kentucky
Is engine timing even a thing anymore or does the computer handle everything now?

The short answer-yes the computer handles everything.

The longer answer-back in the days before electronics as we know them even existed, a man named Charles Kettering devised an ignition system that was in common use from the teens to the 70s.

The Kettering system has at its core a set of breaker points, a wire-wound coil, and a condenser. When the points are closed, current flows through the primary(low voltage or low tension) side of the ignition coil until it is saturated. When the points open, the current in the coil collapses, and the resultant collapse generates a high voltage(high tension) discharge on its secondary side. This voltage is funneled to a spark plug, which has a small gap. A spark jumps the gap, and hopefully ignites the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder.

Proper running of an engine(any gasoline engine) is dependent on the spark happening at the correct time in the rotation of the crank shaft. Ideally, the air/fuel mixture will be completely ignited, and cylinder pressures at their highest, when the piston reaches top dead center(TDC) on the compression stroke. To ensure this happens, the spark must be initiated some time before the piston reaches this point. The spark timing is measured in crankshaft degrees before top dead center(BTDC). The proper timing depends essentially on two variables-the engine rotational speed and the engine load. Also, for the sake of both maximum power and efficiency, it is desirable to advance the spark(make it fire earlier) as much as possible without causing detonation, which is a sudden burn of all the air/fuel mix in the cylinder, and can cause both power loss and engine damage. In general, low load and high rotational speed-i.e. constant speed cruising-call for more spark advance(advanced timing) where high load and low rotational speed(acceleration from a stop) call for less advanced(retarded) timing.

In early cars, the ignition timing was accomplished by a relatively simple mechanical computer called a distributor, which is generally driven directly off the camshaft(in a 4 cycle engine, the camshaft runs at 1/2 the crank speed). The distributor accomplishes a couple of things. The first and most visible part is taking the high tension discharge from the coil and "distributing" it to the correct cylinder. This is accomplished in the "top" part of the distributor using the distributor cap, a rotor fitted to the center shaft, and of course the spark plug wires. Essentially, the coil discharge is fed into the center of the distributor cap and through a carbon button that contacts the rotor. The rotor "points" to the terminal for the cylinder which needs to be fired, and the spark will travel to that cylinder.

The second function of the distributor is buried a bit further down and consists of two parts-a cam on the distributor shaft with lobes corresponding to the number of cylinders, and the breaker points("points") mentioned above that ride on this cam. The cam serves to open and close the points. In this portion, there is one important variable-the amount of time that the points allow the coil to charge, called the dwell. This is measured in degrees. It is adjusted by changing the fully-open gap on the points(on an MG, you shoot for around 15 thousandths of an inch).

The third function of the distributor is buried even further down, and controls exactly when in the rotation of the engine the spark will fire. This is called the advance mechanism. It usually consists of two parts. The primary one is called centrifugal advance, and essentially advances the timing as the engine spins faster. The second is called vacuum advance. Engine load can be indirectly measured by monitoring the intake manifold vacuum. Low load results in high vacuum, and high load in low vacuum. The vacuum advance unit on the distributor translates a vacuum reading into a specific amount of spark advance. The amount of centrifugal advance is determined by the weight of the advance weights and strength of the springs, while vacuum advance is generally changed by changing an external vacuum "can". As an example-and I'm citing MGBs because I know these numbers off the top of my head-the desireable earliest distributor would add 0º of centrifugal advance over the base timing(more on that in a second) at idle, and 12º at 3000rpms. The vacuum advance can would be marked 5-15-5, which indicates that vacuum advance starts at 5"Hg vacuum, is fully on at 15"Hg Vacuum, and adds 5º advance maximum.

The variable most often adjusted when talking about timing is the "base timing", which basically sets the starting point of the distributor advance curve. This can be done in two common ways-statically and dynamically. For static timing, you rotate the engine to the specified base timing position(there are marks on the harmonic balancer to show this), then physically rotate the distributor body so as to just "catch" the points closing. The preferred way is to set it dynamically, which is done by using a timing light, as shown above. The timing light is generally clamped onto the #1 cylinder spark plug lead, the engine started, and the light pointed at the timing indicators. A xenon lamp in the timing light flashes every time the engine sparks, "freezing" the timing mark. On MGs, I generally skip the idle advance setting, and instead set to 32º maximum advance(vacuum disconnected) which is an optimum value for most cars(although I run mine at 34º on premium gas).

All of the above worked well for 60 years, but it has some issues. One of the most troublesome spots is in the breaker points, which are a wear item. When a new set is installed, they generally need to be readjusted after a few hundred miles as they bed to the cam. They also generally last for 10,000-15,000 miles. They can carbon up and have other issues that will leave you stranded(I carry a points file and a spare set of points in the MG). Also, they are prone to misfire at all speeds, but especially at higher speeds, something which is bad both for power and emissions.

In the 1970s, solid state electronics became practical, and one of the first things to do was replace the points with an electronic "ignition amplifier." This would read the cam directly(usually either optically or magnetically) and electronically modulate the voltage to the coil. This removed a maintenance item from the distributor, and had a bunch of other benefits. These systems can often be retrofitted to cars with points, although there are downsides to most of the retrofits on the market.

The next big change came in the late 70s and early 80s, when the engines now were effectively becoming computer controlled. Rather than having a distributor set the entire advance curve, a couple of sensors would feed information to a computer and let it decide the ignition timing. The two main sensors for this are the crank position sensor and the knock sensor. The CPS lets the computer know exactly where the engine is in the firing cycle, and the knock sensor detects engine knock. If the engine does knock, the computer retards the timing until it stops. The distributor was now reduced just to a mechanism to distribute the spark to the correct cylinder.

That is still putting a lot between the coil and the spark plug, so in the 90s manufacturers simplified things even more. Rather than having a single coil firing all cylinders, they started using "Coil Packs" that would feed directly into the cylinder. Sometimes, one coil would fire two plugs at the same time(wasted spark) to simplify parts.

Finally, in the late 90s, most manufactures eliminated the last problematic point-the high tension wires-and started putting the coils directly on the spark plugs(coil on plug).

Of course, that timeline is VERY general, and you can find later or earlier examples of the technologies I mentioned. I remember working on a friend's 97 Geo Prizm(Corolla) for example that had a distributor with the coil integrated. Toyota wanted you to swap the whole distributor rather than replace the coil, but I opted to brave the coil considering that it was a $40 part rather than $250 on a $500 car. There are also some competing ignition types that were dominant in specific application(magnetos come to mind, which were used in Model Ts, some racing engines, small engines, and of course are super common in aviation).
 

senseless

macrumors 68000
Apr 23, 2008
1,887
257
Pennsylvania, USA
Thanks for the timing explanation. My friend has a classic GTO and we did change the weights in the distributor to advance the timing quicker and it made a huge difference. I didn't realize modern cars don't use a distributor.
 

Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
I’m genuinely excited for you. Not also being a fellow Charger owner like yourself, but I’m curious to know your thoughts Of the ‘before & After’ and any pictures you can share. You probably won’t get much sleep over the weekend, At least, I know I wouldn’t.?

Thanks!
Part of the shop's service is posting updates via google drive, apparently including photos of the install as it progresses. Hopefully some of them will be worth posting here.

I also ordered a baseline dyno pull, which they are probably doing at this very moment. That should be interesting, to graphically see the before and after power/torque curves.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,494
Thanks!
Part of the shop's service is posting updates via google drive, apparently including photos of the install as it progresses. Hopefully some of them will be worth posting here.

I also ordered a baseline dyno pull, which they are probably doing at this very moment. That should be interesting, to graphically see the before and after power/torque curves.

Do share! Seriously, I love ‘sleeper cars’ [My share was/is two SHO’s and an SS 5.3 TT). Plus, you have a lethal dose of all-wheel-drive coupled with the supercharged 5.7. Curious though, would you have to do any type of upgrade cooling to the PTU for the power transfer or PTU fluid change? I’m just curious what kind of pre-prep/underlying changes you have to make given all this extra power with the 5.7.
 

Matz

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2015
1,161
1,690
Rural Southern Virginia
Do share! Seriously, I love ‘sleeper cars’ [My share was/is two SHO’s and an SS 5.3 TT). Plus, you have a lethal dose of all-wheel-drive coupled with the supercharged 5.7. Curious though, would you have to do any type of upgrade cooling to the PTU for the power transfer or PTU fluid change? I’m just curious what kind of pre-prep/underlying changes you have to make given all this extra power with the 5.7.

According to the shop, no additional upgrades are needed. They know the car is bone stock, and they have done quite a few 5.7s.

The three or four other shops I contacted before selecting National Speed in Richmond said the same thing, so I’m going to hope they’re correct.

That said, a supercharged 5.7 AWD is actually quite rare. So while I’m not exactly a guinea pig, I’m closer to the tail of the distribution curve than I would be with a RWD.

If I was to go to higher boost, then other mods would come into play, including engine internals.

The baseline dyno is done, and it’s apparently at the upper end of stock HP/TQ; 350/390 at the wheels.

I’ll post it along with the post-mod dyno graph, and a few pics once they finish the job.
 
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