The Car Thread ... !

[44267547]

With gas prices you should be looking now for an EV!

The key word in your post: Looking, not buying for the majority of consumers who are priced out of the EV market, because they can’t afford it. [Then add in an additional ~40% of inflation costs of living for commodities, rising cost of electricity, etc.]

The problem is, there’s hardly anything available right now just for new stock. (I was actively perusing all EV’s for six months, until I finally found one that did not have inflation on a 22’ Model S that will be here on Wednesday.) Most EVs have to be ordered, they’re not just sitting on lots for the most part. That’s partially due to demand, but also the limited availability because of manufacturing/supplier shortages. The inflation is killer right now, and when you look at even a Model 3, its net cost has risen over ~$7000 in the last six months. [Which is also due to demand with Teslas.]

However, my advice would be, guage your local market, find out what you can afford in that pricing segment, and most importantly, understand your infrastructure if it’s something that can be supported based on how much driving accrued that would benefit the consumer for an EV.

The other afterthought is, is even with the used market vehicle resale accruing residual somewhere around ~9% to 15% more for used vehicle, you’ll be investing those additional funds right back into another vehicle that already has inflation. It’s a tough market, but it’s doable if you have the necessity of funds and understanding of your market of where an EV will benefit your lifestyle.

 

[satcomer]

The key word in your post: Looking, not buying for the majority of consumers who are priced out of the EV market, because they can’t afford it. [Then add in an additional ~40% of inflation costs of living for commodities, rising cost of electricity, etc.]

The problem is, there’s hardly anything available right now just for new stock. (I was actively perusing all EV’s for six months, until I finally found one that did not have inflation on a 22’ Model S that will be here on Wednesday.) Most EVs have to be ordered, they’re not just sitting on lots for the most part. That’s partially due to demand, but also the limited availability because of manufacturing/supplier shortages. The inflation is killer right now, and when you look at even a Model 3, its net cost has risen over ~$7000 in the last six months. [Which is also due to demand with Teslas.]

However, my advice would be, guage your local market, find out what you can afford in that pricing segment, and most importantly, understand your infrastructure if it’s something that can be supported based on how much driving accrued that would benefit the consumer for an EV.

The other afterthought is, is even with the used market vehicle resale accruing residual somewhere around ~9% to 15% more for used vehicle, you’ll be investing those additional funds right back into another vehicle that already has inflation. It’s a tough market, but it’s doable if you have the necessity of funds and understanding of your market of where an EV will benefit your lifestyle.

You could look at prices on Used Tesla Inventory.com or other used sites!

 

[44267547]

You could look at prices on Used Tesla Inventory.com or other used sites!

Used prices on a Tesla are venturing for almost just as much as a new Tesla. You’d have to be woefully ignorant to purchase a used price on a Tesla, when a new model literally is maybe a couple thousand more.

The only other logical reason why someone would purchase a used Tesla, is probably because they ‘want it now’ and can’t purchase a new model, because they’re not available immediately, where they’re manufactured build-to-order with a lengthy waitlist.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I’ve always found it odd how comfortably people in their 50’s+ seem to be able to just pick up an expensive (15K+) car. Is it financing comfortably or is there really that yawning a gap in between the finances of these generations?

Just curious.

This is a big generalization, but with wages failing to keep up with inflation millenials (and likely soon Gen Zers) are left with less buying power when shopping for homes and new cars compared with Boomers and Gen Xers. The average cost of a new car is now climbing over 40k USD. Longer loans, many with predatory terms, are becoming more common.

That, coupled with the ongoing obsession with SUVs and bigger vehicles with more features, has conspired to make car ownership less affordable in general. For the moment, EVs are not alleviating the problem because the technology is still maturing and only mid-to-high-end models feature the range the average driver expects from a car. Also, in the short term, price spikes in heavy metal prices (partially due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine) will have an impact on EV prices.

If you've got the money, it's a great time to be shopping for a car. They've never been more powerful, efficient, safe, and feature-filled. But fewer and fewer people can afford these marvels - and the problem is getting worse. The affordable automobile is an endangered species.

 

[NT1440]

This is a big generalization, but with wages failing to keep up with inflation millenials (and likely soon Gen Zers) are left with less buying power when shopping for homes and new cars compared with Boomers and Gen Xers. The average cost of a new car is now climbing over 40k USD. Longer loans, many with predatory terms, are becoming more common.

That, coupled with the ongoing obsession with SUVs and bigger vehicles with more features, has conspired to make car ownership less affordable in general. For the moment, EVs are not alleviating the problem because the technology is still maturing and only mid-to-high-end models feature the range the average driver expects from a car. Also, in the short term, price spikes in heavy metal prices (partially due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine) will have an impact on EV prices.

If you've got the money, it's a great time to be shopping for a car. They've never been more powerful, efficient, safe, and feature-filled. But fewer and fewer people can afford these marvels - and the problem is getting worse. The affordable automobile is an endangered species.

I’ve long said that the EV in America needs its “VW Beetle” moment. Cheap, simple, serviceable. No technology bells and whistles, just a car that goes A to B at an affordable price…that happens to be electric.

I think that car will be the one that moves the needle to EV’s being the norm rather than the exception.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Question from a younger member.

Is it common in the older age brackets to just be able to think about a car purchase on a whim?

I make good money, but I intentionally spent a year saving up and searching for a ~100K Volvo wagon because I knew it would last forever (and I’ve worked on it extensively myself, got a second engine in my garage awaiting time/funds for a rebuild).

Ideally I’ll keep this thing forever and *some day* drop an electric crate motor in it to really keep it running forever.

However, no one in my age bracket (I’m 30) that I know can even conceive of the idea of buying a new car, let alone cover the cost of a new (used) one without a major financial stress in their lives. I keep most of my friends cars alive with repairs and timely oil changes.

I’ve always found it odd how comfortably people in their 50’s+ seem to be able to just pick up an expensive (15K+) car. Is it financing comfortably or is there really that yawning a gap in between the finances of these generations?

Just curious.

So I’ve just bought my first new car. Up until now I’ve always bought cars that are a couple of years old so you avoid the depreciation.
So why did I order new this time? When I looked at the cost of a nearly new verses a new EV the difference wasn’t really that much. Plus as it’s my first EV I wanted the full 8 year battery warranty and 3 year everything else warranty.
Many people order cars through PCP so end up paying for them monthly. For older people who own their own homes there isn’t any issue with getting finance. But it’s not always the best or wisest solution.
We are getting rid of both our cars when the i3 arrives, which helps with the cost etc. Mrs AFB hardly uses hers and we can just drop to one car which is better for the wallet and the environment.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I’ve long said that the EV in America needs its “VW Beetle” moment. Cheap, simple, serviceable. No technology bells and whistles, just a car that goes A to B at an affordable price…that happens to be electric.

I think that car will be the one that moves the needle to EV’s being the norm rather than the exception.

So I’m not in America, but I think that would be a really hard sell. The gamble to produce that sort of car is unlikely to pay off. Everyone wants all the tech these days. Even the range is an issue. People regularly state they need a car that will go 300+ miles on a single charge. But in reality that’s not the average commute for people. Plus for a car to do that it’s less efficient. Your carrying around all that extra battery weight on those shorter journeys.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Plenty of options at that size of car. I think the adoption will happen pretty quickly for a lot of people. It’s the fastest growing segment at the moment. The only thing holding quicker adoption back is the chip shortages and cost of purchase.

I definitely see small EV’s on the roads more than bigger EV’s. Petrol prices are going up at the moment but that is unsustainable longterm as it is driving up the cost of just about everything we buy. Income tax is going up in July and energy bills are astronomical right now. Sadly now is perhaps the worst time to be buying any type of vehicle.

Not necessarily a question for you but what large SUV style EV’s are there around for families looking to swap? It’s still a hugely expensive market and I couldn’t justify dropping £80+k on an electric car big enough for my whole family. It’s still niche and in the transition stage I think, not to mention the charging network isn’t fully ready.

 

[Nütztjanix]

I seem to be an outlier here — I just recently got rid of my 2004 daily driver (BMW Diesel) and switched to a 1992 petrol car (my second VW Passat from that generation) for day to day use.
Besides, it's consuming less than 8 l/100 km, which is remarkable given it's almost 30 years old.

EV is not an option right now, since I have no possibility to charge the car (no electricity available where I park).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

So I’m not in America, but I think that would be a really hard sell. The gamble to produce that sort of car is unlikely to pay off. Everyone wants all the tech these days. Even the range is an issue. People regularly state they need a car that will go 300+ miles on a single charge. But in reality that’s not the average commute for people. Plus for a car to do that it’s less efficient. Your carrying around all that extra battery weight on those shorter journeys.

A lot of people do short commutes during the week and longer runs at weekends I suppose, I know I do. My commute is 14 miles each way Monday to Friday but we’ll go anyway from West Wales, the Midlands to Surrey and even Dorset visiting family and friends at weekends. I can usually get to those places and back on a full tank. This is the completion benchmark for larger EV’s I think as it’s a common demand for this sort of flexibility for a car IMO.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I definitely see small EV’s on the roads more than bigger EV’s. Petrol prices are going up at the moment but that is unsustainable longterm as it is driving up the cost of just about everything we buy. Income tax is going up in July and energy bills are astronomical right now. Sadly now is perhaps the worst time to be buying any type of vehicle.

Not necessarily a question for you but what large SUV style EV’s are there around for families looking to swap? It’s still a hugely expensive market and I couldn’t justify dropping £80+k on an electric car big enough for my whole family. It’s still niche and in the transition stage I think, not to mention the charging network isn’t fully ready.

Agree there are a lot more EV cars on the roads than there were. Or maybe I just notice them more! Cheap large EV’s are harder to come buy for sure. But the choice is getting better all the time.

 

[Apple fanboy]

A lot of people do short commutes during the week and longer runs at weekends I suppose, I know I do. My commute is 14 miles each way Monday to Friday but we’ll go anyway from West Wales, the Midlands to Surrey and even Dorset visiting family and friends at weekends. I can usually get to those places and back on a full tank. This is the completion benchmark for larger EV’s I think as it’s a common demand for this sort of flexibility for a car IMO.

Having no friends or family, I don’t have those worries!

 

[Apple fanboy]

I seem to be an outlier here — I just recently got rid of my 2004 daily driver (BMW Diesel) and switched to a 1992 petrol car (my second VW Passat from that generation) for day to day use.
Besides, it's consuming less than 8 l/100 km, which is remarkable given it's almost 30 years old.

EV is not an option right now, since I have no possibility to charge the car (no electricity available where I park).

Being able to do your own maintenance and repairs does put you at an advantage over your average Joe driving a 30 year old car. Hope it continues to give you reliability and cheap motoring.

 

[danmart]

Question from a younger member.

Is it common in the older age brackets to just be able to think about a car purchase on a whim?

I make good money, but I intentionally spent a year saving up and searching for a ~100K Volvo wagon because I knew it would last forever (and I’ve worked on it extensively myself, got a second engine in my garage awaiting time/funds for a rebuild).

Ideally I’ll keep this thing forever and *some day* drop an electric crate motor in it to really keep it running forever.

However, no one in my age bracket (I’m 30) that I know can even conceive of the idea of buying a new car, let alone cover the cost of a new (used) one without a major financial stress in their lives. I keep most of my friends cars alive with repairs and timely oil changes.

I’ve always found it odd how comfortably people in their 50’s+ seem to be able to just pick up an expensive (15K+) car. Is it financing comfortably or is there really that yawning a gap in between the finances of these generations?

Just curious.

I suspect this is a self-selection bias. People in that age bracket who talk cars on the internet tend to like cars and have built that like into their budget models. People in that age group who don’t like cars probably rarely talk about them at all, so you aren’t aware of them.

Interestingly, I see the opposite. Lots of younger people with no significant financial commitments spending high-hundreds every month on lease deals for prestige cars. It’s certainly very common theme in the UK on car-specific websites.

I love cars, they are my most expensive hobby but it is something that I have built into my budgeting for about 30 years, now. And once you get into cars which tend to hold their value it becomes easier to buy the next one, and you are only paying the difference in the cost of the cars. Much like some people buy the latest iPhone each year and minimise the costs by carefully selling their out-going model.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I suspect this is a self-selection bias. People in that age bracket who talk cars on the internet tend to like cars and have built that like into their budget models. People in that age group who don’t like cars probably rarely talk about them at all, so you aren’t aware of them.

Interestingly, I see the opposite. Lots of younger people with no significant financial commitments spending high-hundreds every month on lease deals for prestige cars. It’s certainly very common theme in the UK on car-specific websites.

I love cars, they are my most expensive hobby but it is something that I have built into my budgeting for about 30 years, now. And once you get into cars which tend to hold their value it becomes easier to buy the next one, and you are only paying the difference in the cost of the cars. Much like some people buy the latest iPhone each year and minimise the costs by carefully selling their out-going model.

Agree with this. I used to work with someone who was young, low wage and had a new car every 3 years. Nothing flashy. But not the cheapest either. They would moan that they would never be able to afford to buy there own home due to the cost of rent. I used to think well if you made some cut backs, I’m sure you could scrape a deposit together!
We all prioritise what’s important to us. For me it was always a nice house.

 

[44267547]

I love cars, they are my most expensive hobby

It’s a slippery slope I wouldn’t recommend most to go down, mainly because of the depreciation, unless of course, you have a ‘one off’ design that actually accrued value, which is a rarity.

I’ve had 14 different sports cars in the last 10 years (Twin turbo, supercharged, N/A, electric next week…), and although that might seem crazy to some people, I haven’t regretted a second of it, being it’s a true passion for me, but I can also afford it. You only live once, no regrets.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Agree with this. I used to work with someone who was young, low wage and had a new car every 3 years. Nothing flashy. But not the cheapest either. They would moan that they would never be able to afford to buy there own home due to the cost of rent. I used to think well if you made some cut backs, I’m sure you could scrape a deposit together!
We all prioritise what’s important to us. For me it was always a nice house.

That was always our philosophy when we were in our 20’s. Get on the property ladder early and get the nice house. We’ve got two very modest cars but have a nice house now, whereas we know people who have nice cars and not so nice houses but moan that they wish they could move or afford a better home. Wouldn’t want to be buying a house now though with current prices and interest rates!

I work with a lad who is 27 and in a decent engineering wage but drives a 2011 Vauxhall Corsa. He’s not into cars by any stretch and a lot of the people I know who buy £50k+ cars these days tend to be much older or enjoying their retirement. Then again there are those people who lease nicer cars because it enables them to enjoy a car they otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford. So many different types.

 

[44267547]

The whole leasing tangent is a very sensitive subject for some people. In my opinion, leasing is an absolutely horrible financial method of purchasing a vehicle (For a variety reasons), and there’s a large swath of consumers who can’t afford various vehicles, so they think leasing is that secondary avenue to obtain a car that is well above their pay grade they struggle with a payment. I’m not saying that’s everybody’s case, but I prefer to own my cars outright and are titled direct to me.

To each their own.

 

[danmart]

It’s a slippery slope I wouldn’t recommend most to go down, mainly because of the depreciation, unless of course, you have a ‘one off’ design that actually accrued value, which is a rarity.

Like I say, for me it is a hobby so I accept that there is a cost associated with that. I don’t drink or smoke and whilst we have nice holidays they aren’t in the cost league that some of my friends go with. The great thing about capitalism is you can spend your money on what gives you pleasure and others can pick something different.

I’ve had 14 different sports cars in the last 10 years

I keep mine for about four years on average.

 

[44267547]

Like I say, for me it is a hobby so I accept that there is a cost associated with that. I don’t drink or smoke and whilst we have nice holidays they aren’t in the cost league that some of my friends go with. The great thing about capitalism is you can spend your money on what gives you pleasure and others can pick something different.

I keep mine for about four years on average.

Same here. I don’t drink or smoke. I’m invested in other parts of my life with weight training, cars, small business investments, building a new home and lots and lots of tech.

Once we have some nicer weather, I’m usually attending lots of car shows and various car meet ups.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I’ve long said that the EV in America needs its “VW Beetle” moment. Cheap, simple, serviceable. No technology bells and whistles, just a car that goes A to B at an affordable price…that happens to be electric.

I think that car will be the one that moves the needle to EV’s being the norm rather than the exception.

Americans are, as a group, far too aspirational to want a 'peoples' car.' In an era when a huge portion of the driving public genuinely seem to think they need a full-size truck or SUV, such a car would only appeal to half the country at best, and be reviled by the other half as some form of virtue-signaling.

Look at the GMC Sierra AT4. A 15/20mpg half-ton pickup truck with the features of a luxury car and a price tag that exceeds the average American's yearly income by 20%. In a country where people drool over that, your peoples' car won't fly.

So I’m not in America, but I think that would be a really hard sell. The gamble to produce that sort of car is unlikely to pay off. Everyone wants all the tech these days. Even the range is an issue. People regularly state they need a car that will go 300+ miles on a single charge. But in reality that’s not the average commute for people. Plus for a car to do that it’s less efficient. Your carrying around all that extra battery weight on those shorter journeys.

There is a genuine need for longer range in the USA that makes EVs a tougher sell than in Europe. Visiting my family involves a 750-mile drive. Due to the regional airports I would have to use, flying is really poor value (and expensive anyway), and there is no rail connection. There is no cheaper way to travel than by car, and a car like my Fiesta, which can get 37-42 mpg on the interstate, is quite economical. A hybrid would do even better of course, but would also cost more. This is especially true with US fuel prices (which, despite the panicking, are still much lower than the rest of the world right now). I regularly make 250-mile round trips for other tasks as well. And my driving habits are not atypical for the rural area I live in.

So if I were to replace both my vehicles with EVs, at least one of them would need to be able to make that 750-mile journey in one day, through some combination of long range and rapid charging. And do the 250-mile trips on one charge with some reserve power remaining for contingencies.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Americans are, as a group, far too aspirational to want a 'peoples' car.' In an era when a huge portion of the driving public genuinely seem to think they need a full-size truck or SUV, such a car would only appeal to half the country at best, and be reviled by the other half as some form of virtue-signaling.

Look at the GMC Sierra AT4. A 15/20mpg half-ton pickup truck with the features of a luxury car and a price tag that exceeds the average American's yearly income by 20%. In a country where people drool over that, your peoples' car won't fly.



There is a genuine need for longer range in the USA that makes EVs a tougher sell than in Europe. Visiting my family involves a 750-mile drive. Due to the regional airports I would have to use, flying is really poor value (and expensive anyway), and there is no rail connection. There is no cheaper way to travel than by car, and a car like my Fiesta, which can get 37-42 mpg on the interstate, is quite economical. A hybrid would do even better of course, but would also cost more. This is especially true with US fuel prices (which, despite the panicking, are still much lower than the rest of the world right now). I regularly make 250-mile round trips for other tasks as well. And my driving habits are not atypical for the rural area I live in.

So if I were to replace both my vehicles with EVs, at least one of them would need to be able to make that 750-mile journey in one day, through some combination of long range and rapid charging. And do the 250-mile trips on one charge with some reserve power remaining for contingencies.

So I think the longest drive I have is around 150 miles each way. In theory the i3 could make that one way, but I’d need to charge before the return journey. But I’d probably opt to stop on the way down.

We all have to choose what’s right for us. I just hope there are less and less choosing the planet destroying 2.8 litre turbo super charge option. There is no planet b after all.
Currently there will be no more ICE cars sold after 2030 in the U.K. that’s not that far away.

 

[Nütztjanix]

I don’t feel bad at all. Keeping a 30 year old car running is better for the planet than buying a new EV.
Most, if not all, existing cars are environmentally better than a newly built one — wether it’s ICE, hybrid or BEV.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I don’t feel bad at all. Keeping a 30 year old car running is better for the planet than buying a new EV.
Most, if not all, existing cars are environmentally better than a newly built one — wether it’s ICE, hybrid or BEV.

There is a lot of truth in that. But you’re not buying a new ICE car every two years. That’s the worst scenario. Do they have a date to stop selling ICE cars in Germany?

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I don’t feel bad at all. Keeping a 30 year old car running is better for the planet than buying a new EV.
Most, if not all, existing cars are environmentally better than a newly built one — wether it’s ICE, hybrid or BEV.

It depends very much on which cars you're talking about. But it is true that discarding an ICE vehicle to buy an EV is not always the 'greener' choice.

There are a lot of factors to consider: how 'dirty' is your ICE car? How will it be disposed of? Which EV are you buying? Where is your electricity coming from?