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The Car Thread ... !

avro707 said:
I also think Chrevrolet is pushing the connection a bit too much. They don’t need to. And besides Ferrari has moved on so much. Yes the 458 was a brilliant thing with an amazing engine but look now at the 296 model, that is incredible- so accomplished and well sorted. That car also has a very interesting engine layout which seems to have been built with racing in mind, 120° V6 engines aren’t the usual find on road legal cars.
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I think the key reason is because they’re comparing a naturally aspirated “sports car spirit” with their naturally aspirated offering, and highlighting the things that make NA so great: the high revs, the noise, the power build up.

I think throttle house said it best: a boosted car is best with an automatic and a naturally aspirated car is best complemented by a manual.

With boost, you’re always in the power band, and an auto will make sure of that. All BMWs dynos show the power dies off at the top. There’s no encouragement to actually rev it out. Naturally aspirated cars have a unique sound and require you to keep yourself in the power band. There’s just another element to the drive. I think that’s why Porsche’s GT class cars are such a success. I don’t think they’d do as well if they were boosted.

Edit: also the low torque makes it easier to put power down, and higher revs allow you to run a higher rear end and multiple your engine power to higher wheel torque. Instant throttle response and the mechanical nature of it all…I like Chevy chose to compare to the 458 over some boosted exotic.
 
YoitsTmac said:
Porsche’s GT class cars are such a success. I don’t think they’d do as well if they were boosted
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The best of them all have turbos and have done for ages.

GT2, the 935 (the recreation) and others. Previous generations like the 993 GT2 (which is now extremely valuable) and the GT1, also the older Turbo S LM and the Leichtbau too. The market values for those are extremely extremely high at auction.

The Corvette can happily stand high without needing to play on connections to superseded Ferrari models.
 
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avro707 said:
The best of them all have turbos and have done for ages.

GT2, the 935 (the recreation) and others. Previous generations like the 993 GT2 (which is now extremely valuable) and the GT1, also the older Turbo S LM and the Leichtbau too.
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These are only the “best” because they were the “fastest” of their time. And there is value in that.

To me, these are not the best. It’s why there’s a vicious market for these remaining NA cars like the GT3 and GT3RS. In my circle, these names come up as way more sought over than GT2 models.
 
There are always a few in the local Porsche dealer I go past daily.

They had a genuine Cayenne S Transsyberia in there a while back as well, that was very unusual and rare. Only front seats, rollcage, various other changes inside. Very nice machine and very valuable now (because they are rare). They were rally cars:

newsroom.porsche.com

Confident off-road athlete: the winning streak of the Cayenne S Transsyberia

Right from the start, the Cayenne had to deliver typical Porsche performance not just on the road, but off it as well. The sports car manufacturer provided the ultimate proof of its SUV's ability to take the punishment of rough terrain between 2006 and 2008 in the Transsyberia Rally, a gruelling...
newsroom.porsche.com newsroom.porsche.com

Love those old V8 Cayennes, they sound great. :) 8 cylinder music to my ears. They are quiet but very tuneful.

There are a few GT2 RS running around my area as well, also a couple of Huracan STOs.
 
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avro707 said:
Maybe Chevrolet should put no resell provisions in the sales contracts with big penalties for breaking it.
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They do with Z06 and E-Ray.

If sold within 6 months, voids warranty, potentially bans them for ordering a future limited production vehicle( though easily worked around), etc.

Didn't stop them because people with money are stupid to begin with so they will still buy the car without a warranty. Now it seems to be having an effect, but the crazy prices people were paying for Z06's have also gone down. But for 2022-2023, tons were being flipped within 6 months for $50K-$100K over.

And a story who paid $177K for a bare bones 1LZ( ~115K MSRP) is left with a $20K bill because the transmission failed and he can't afford it is making the rounds cause the warranty was voided.
 
quagmire said:
They do with Z06 and E-Ray.

If sold within 6 months, voids warranty, potentially bans them for ordering a future limited production vehicle( though easily worked around), etc.

Didn't stop them because people with money are stupid to begin with so they will still buy the car without a warranty. Now it seems to be having an effect, but the crazy prices people were paying for Z06's have also gone down. But for 2022-2023, tons were being flipped within 6 months for $50K-$100K over.

And a story who paid $177K for a bare bones 1LZ( ~115K MSRP) is left with a $20K bill because the transmission failed and he can't afford it is making the rounds cause the warranty was voided.
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Porsche had this problem with the 911R model (the BS modern one, not the old genuine article from the experimental department).

People were flipping them for $1m - then Porsche brought out the GT3 Touring production model that did the same thing and killed the extravagant resales of the 911R.

IMO the 911R was junk, it was too heavy and didn’t recreate the old car. The old car was totally stripped of everything, had a racing engine, even light paint work, lighter tail lights, lightweight windows, it was very extreme.

The few built were intended for rally use.

As always, 4 or so built and of those 30 survive today… ;)
 
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avro707 said:
Porsche had this problem with the 911R model (the BS modern one, not the old genuine article from the experimental department).

People were flipping them for $1m - then Porsche brought out the GT3 Touring production model that did the same thing and killed the extravagant resales of the 911R.

IMO the 911R was junk, it was too heavy and didn’t recreate the old car. The old car was totally stripped of everything, had a racing engine, even light paint work, lighter tail lights, lightweight windows, it was very extreme.

The few built were intended for rally use.

As always, 4 or so built and of those 30 survive today… ;)
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Hehehe very true :)
 
HDFan said:
?
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Oh, the usual thing - 4 or so original factory build cars made, then the other so call survivors are all non-genuine replicas (not worth anywhere near as much). That also occurred with the very rare 968 Turbo RS.

The original 911R I believe was built as a semi-experimental model prepared in response to a request from Gérard Larrousse who wanted a very light rally car for the Tour de France car rally. He challenged Porsche to meet his target and if they did, they would get a case of nice champagne. He had to pay up.

The car was completely stripped out and gutted of everything. The windows were lighter, the paint had less layers, the tail lights were simple round items instead of the normal wrap around ones, the interior was gutted and the 2.0 litre engine if I remember right was a 906 Carrera 6 unit and the thing made rather a massive amount of noise and was quite potent.

The thing was very fast.
 
quagmire said:
They do with Z06 and E-Ray.

If sold within 6 months, voids warranty, potentially bans them for ordering a future limited production vehicle( though easily worked around), etc.

Didn't stop them because people with money are stupid to begin with so they will still buy the car without a warranty. Now it seems to be having an effect, but the crazy prices people were paying for Z06's have also gone down. But for 2022-2023, tons were being flipped within 6 months for $50K-$100K over.

And a story who paid $177K for a bare bones 1LZ( ~115K MSRP) is left with a $20K bill because the transmission failed and he can't afford it is making the rounds cause the warranty was voided.
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This doesn't sound like it would hold up in court...

I'm not sure I believe an initial warranty can be limited to the initial owner, unless the vehicle is used for commercial purposes. I think it is a federal law that the manufacturer covers for a length of time the initial bumper-to-bumper (excluding things like extended powertrain coverages). I don't think it can be voided by a sale, if that was the case, every manufacturer would put it in their warranty contract, to force customers to trade in with the manufacturer (if sold during the initial warranty).

Now I 100% believe they can deny coverage, as they try to do that all the time. But I don't believe if pressed in court, that it would hold up.

They can limit you to not buying direct from them again, but they have to honor their warranty (unless the vehicle is a moved internationally as that can void the warranty).
 
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quagmire said:
They do with Z06 and E-Ray.

If sold within 6 months, voids warranty, potentially bans them for ordering a future limited production vehicle( though easily worked around), etc.

Didn't stop them because people with money are stupid to begin with so they will still buy the car without a warranty. Now it seems to be having an effect, but the crazy prices people were paying for Z06's have also gone down. But for 2022-2023, tons were being flipped within 6 months for $50K-$100K over.

And a story who paid $177K for a bare bones 1LZ( ~115K MSRP) is left with a $20K bill because the transmission failed and he can't afford it is making the rounds cause the warranty was voided.
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That would be highly illegal behaviour in Europe. You can’t limit a warranty like that.

But yes for rarer models dealers would likely not allocate one to you if they are selling well. Typical supercar special edition sales tactics; but never limitation of warranty. That is just not allowed.
 
quagmire said:
All I’m going to say is when I brought up Italian spirit, I was simply using it as a way to throw off people and not make it obvious the car I bought.

Didn’t mean to imply I somehow own a Ferrari or make the car something it’s not.

I do not like the Corvette fans that try to mimic the “exclusivity” that surrounds Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Corvette is about the masses. I don’t care that your Corvette is “1 of 1”. It's a mass produced vehicle with 100K+ C8's driving out there. Now have a 1963 Stingray in fantastic condition? Then come talk to me about rarity and exclusivity.

I had to deal with that for the past 1.5 years listening to people talk that GM will only make 10,000 Z06's total, that I wouldn't get one unless I was on lists 5 years ago while I was on the hunt. F that.
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Well said. Corvette exists to democratize performance.
 
JT2002TJ said:
This doesn't sound like it would hold up in court...

I'm not sure I believe an initial warranty can be limited to the initial owner, unless the vehicle is used for commercial purposes. I think it is a federal law that the manufacturer covers for a length of time the initial bumper-to-bumper (excluding things like extended powertrain coverages). I don't think it can be voided by a sale, if that was the case, every manufacturer would put it in their warranty contract, to force customers to trade in with the manufacturer (if sold during the initial warranty).

Now I 100% believe they can deny coverage, as they try to do that all the time. But I don't believe if pressed in court, that it would hold up.

They can limit you to not buying direct from them again, but they have to honor their warranty (unless the vehicle is a moved internationally as that can void the warranty).
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No law requires the warranty to be transferable.
 
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quagmire said:
They do with Z06 and E-Ray.

If sold within 6 months, voids warranty, potentially bans them for ordering a future limited production vehicle( though easily worked around), etc.
Click to expand...

The last new RR we bought, we were required to sign a statement that 1) we were not going to sell it overseas and 2) if we sold it overseas, we would not be allowed to purchase a new one.....ever.

It made sense, but was also kind of dumb since we leased it.
 
Herdfan said:
The last new RR we bought, we were required to sign a statement that 1) we were not going to sell it overseas and 2) if we sold it overseas, we would not be allowed to purchase a new one.....ever.

It made sense, but was also kind of dumb since we leased it.
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People buy leases out... Tesla doesn't allow lease buyouts (they previously did on the S/X, but never on the 3/Y). They should have just made it so there was no lease end purchase option.

Maybe they were ok with domestic lease buyouts, but how would you know what the new owner does with it?

www.tesla.com

Lease-End Options | Tesla Support

If you’re looking to return your vehicle and upgrade before the end of your lease, we offer several options to end your lease early.
www.tesla.com www.tesla.com

Purchase Your Tesla Vehicle
If you leased a Model S or Model X before April 15, 2022, you may be eligible to purchase your leased vehicle. Review your lease agreement to see if you qualify.

Eligibility
  • All Tesla vehicles delivered on or after April 15, 2022 are not eligible for purchase.
  • Third-party dealerships and third-party individuals are not eligible to purchase leased vehicles.
  • Model 3 and Model Y leases are not eligible for purchase regardless of delivery date.
Click to expand...
 
JT2002TJ said:
People buy leases out... Tesla doesn't allow lease buyouts (they previously did on the S/X, but never on the 3/Y). They should have just made it so there was no lease end purchase option.

Maybe they were ok with domestic lease buyouts, but how would you know what the new owner does with it?

www.tesla.com

Lease-End Options | Tesla Support

If you’re looking to return your vehicle and upgrade before the end of your lease, we offer several options to end your lease early.
www.tesla.com www.tesla.com
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LOL More illegal behaviour to European consumer protection standards.
 
cyb3rdud3 said:
LOL More illegal behaviour to European consumer protection standards.
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This is one, I'm not sure how that would be illegal. If the contract says you must return the car, why would that be a problem. I mean, you are free to buy (cash or finance) the car and do whatever you want with it. You are borrowing the car... To me, it is like renting a car (literally what you are doing), then expecting to be able to buy/sell the car... It's not your car, the lease in the finance company's name.

I believe Tesla is the financier, so if they own the vehicle, they have the right to it... If you use a 3rd party financier, it is up to that bank if they want to own the car or sell the car. Typically, banks don't want to own the car, so they sell it to a local dealer, who buys it, then CPOs it and sells it... This is why leases are typically financed by the manufacturer's finance division.

I've never leased, so I don't really understand it. So, I might sound like an idiot on this one.

EDIT: Some legacy auto manufactures added this to their leases during the pandemic, because people were buying out leases then selling the car for significantly more than the residual value. My buddy has a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe that does not have an end of lease purchase option.

EDIT2: I 100% agree it would be illegal if it wasn't in the contract at the time of lease. If there is an end of lease purchase option, they cannot just hold onto the title. But if there is no lease purchase option at the time of signing, it is a valid contract.
 
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YoitsTmac said:
Why wouldn’t Tesla want you to buy the car after a lease?
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So they can control the 3 year old used market. Most people who buy hold onto their cars longer than 3 years, especially since financing is now 60+ months. Leased cars represent the majority of 3 year old cars. If they retain them, they can set the price.

Both my Teslas were direct from Tesla off leases. They turned on FSD and Acceleration Boost to up the value (when I got mine, most of the used teslas were coming with them on).

Im not sure if it will help or hurt them with the changed market. But it makes sense if you are trying to set the value.
 
JT2002TJ said:
This is one, I'm not sure how that would be illegal. If the contract says you must return the car, why would that be a problem. I mean, you are free to buy (cash or finance) the car and do whatever you want with it. You are borrowing the car... To me, it is like renting a car (literally what you are doing), then expecting to be able to buy/sell the car... It's not your car, the lease in the finance company's name.

I believe Tesla is the financier, so if they own the vehicle, they have the right to it... If you use a 3rd party financier, it is up to that bank if they want to own the car or sell the car. Typically, banks don't want to own the car, so they sell it to a local dealer, who buys it, then CPOs it and sells it... This is why leases are typically financed by the manufacturer's finance division.

I've never leased, so I don't really understand it. So, I might sound like an idiot on this one.

EDIT: Some legacy auto manufactures added this to their leases during the pandemic, because people were buying out leases then selling the car for significantly more than the residual value. My buddy has a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe that does not have an end of lease purchase option.

EDIT2: I 100% agree it would be illegal if it wasn't in the contract at the time of lease. If there is an end of lease purchase option, they cannot just hold onto the title. But if there is no lease purchase option at the time of signing, it is a valid contract.
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Well yes a more moderate version would be to figure out what kind of lease it is. People often use lease, but the word lease can mean many different things to many different people. Financial lease, Operational Lease, Contract Hire, Contract Purchase, and the list goes on. Typically some or all forms can align with tax rules for both the provider and the consumer, and that can determine what is allowed and what isn't. And to be fair, in certain circumstances the company providing the lease isn't allowed to sell the car to the person taking out the lease. Typically, that is in scenarios where it is a commercial lease, for example where a company takes out the lease, and not an individual. For private financing there are consumer laws where the consumer doesn't have to be tied into debt and is allowed to get themselves out of it, and thus buy out of the lease as well.

I typically don't like taking out financing for cars, unless the incentives on the table are very good. Then I take the incentive, and any dealer incentives as well, and once the finance is arranged I pay it off immediately (unless at zero percent financing or less then I can make) and avoid the finance uplift all together.
 
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