Not yet, Ford lost over a billion on their EV sector, Tesla had a very bad quarter. I think overall having most of your vehicles priced in the 50 to 100k range is causing people to hold onto what they have
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The Car Thread ... !
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Oh no question, in fact a few of them have been naysayers since 2020, but I think at this point they are now feeling the pinch. Previously those folks lamented and complained about the high price of ownership and that was going to cause the bubble to burst. They kept saying that the past few years but now I think the bubble is getting ready to burst.
It seems car repossessions are up by a lot and that's just making matters worse for banks, dealerships and automakers, not to mention the consumers who can't afford the payments
Oh yeah the market is cooling off finally.
Like I said, it wasn't sustainable. But right now the market is slowly returning to 2019. These channels are claiming $10K off trucks discounts as dealers can't even give them away, but $10K off was the norm in 2019 and the industry was healthy then and not in a downturn.
People are so short term focused they seem to forget how it was before COVID-induced madness. They claim 2019 conditions will never return, this is the new norm, etc.
I haven't followed the truck market or even the mainstream car market lately, but I have been in the hunt for my C8 Z06 for the past 1.5 years and followed that market closely. It went fairly bonkers obviously with going for $100K+ over MSRP. People were exclaiming if you were not on lists back in 2019-2020, you would never get one. That GM would only build 10K-20K over the lifetime of the production run. While I used it as a tease to throw off people what I ordered, people were literally treating the Z06 as if it was a Ferrari or Lambo and somehow the C8 Z06 was going to be different from past generations and not be built in the same numbers.
The C8 Stingray has gone from $10K over to $10K under MSRP in one year( granted the Stingray was commanding way above MSRP for close to 4 model years). The Z06 collapsed faster and I got mine for $10K over but now it's down to MSRP to $10K over. Honestly that surprised me. I thought $5K-$10K over would have been more sustainable given how many are still on lists waiting their turn. I seriously thought people that were looking at a 2026-2027 Z06 ( like myself) would opt to pay that $10K over now figuring the MSRP by the time their name came up, the MSRP would be that $10K higher than it is now or even higher. But that was proven wrong and if you're just patient and quick enough, can get an allocation or in stock unit for MSRP now.
My understanding is that the Ford loss, is not really a loss. The reason is, they are including the tooling/setup/R&D costs in the EV losses. As with any new venture, it takes years to recoup the initial investment.
Tesla didn't hit projected sales numbers, but they still are doing well.
The problem is the 8%+ interest rates. Everyone, EV, ICE, Hybrid is going to have problems, even if the vehicle is $20k or $100k. People are less likely to replace a vehicle knowing the auto loan interest rates are so high. As a way to try to fool the customers and keep monthly payments lower, they have moved loans to 6 - 7 year loans instead of the typical 3-4 it was 20 years ago.
I do agree that car prices are crazy, this is why I went with 2 Teslas, they were priced the same as the average ICE.
What little I know is that Ford is now shifting away from Evs and embracing hybrid vehicles. I know Ford mentioned that their EV division was doing to lose money for the next 3 or 4 years. My point is that their consumer division is getting hammered. As I noted down 66% from last year. Their commercial/fleet division is what seemingly kept them from having absolute horrible quarter. I'm only going what I found on that link (in my post) and that video, as I mentioned I don't follow the car industry that close.
Its what happens when wages don't go up with inflation, but prices do.
People start cutting back on luxuries. They hold on to older cars, cut down subscriptions, and do less shopping overall.
As result lots of cars are sitting on lots looking pretty. EVs and luxury brands are getting bad, and are having to practically give away cars just to get signatures in the books.
Heck its happening to Macs and iOS devices too.
People start cutting back on luxuries. They hold on to older cars, cut down subscriptions, and do less shopping overall.
As result lots of cars are sitting on lots looking pretty. EVs and luxury brands are getting bad, and are having to practically give away cars just to get signatures in the books.
Heck its happening to Macs and iOS devices too.
Not only on lots, but in driveways.
Cars are built a lot better today than even 20 years ago. I used to do nothing but lease vehicles so I wouldn't have to deal with them breaking down once they got over 50K miles. My last 3 trucks have hit almost 100K before I got rid of them and my current one just turned 80K. It has an extended factory warranty to 150K so I will keep it for at least another year.
The wife's Rover just rolled 60K and it is also under a CPO warranty for another 2 years and 40K miles. So keeping it for a bit longer as well.
And detailed, they both look almost brand new.
I don’t think the cost of ICE and hybrid vehicles, both used and new, is to going to come down very much. But it will happen to EVs, and probably to ICE trucks with engines that are downsized to meet the CAFE and others government standards to reduce emission. Most larger pickup trucks are purchased to towing trailers or various kinds, or cargo capacity.
For example, one of the most popular Toyota midsize trucks up to 2023, the Tacoma, no longer has a 6 cylinder engine starting in 2024. Now it has a 4-cylinder turbo engine. It is a very nice engine, but even so its longevity is questioned, at least compared to the 6-cylinder one. All the problems with this older engine have been iron-out already, while the 4-cylinder turbo engine is new. Also, in order to achieve greater torque with the smaller engine, higher engine RPM is needed, which in turn increases fuel consumption and engine plus turbo wear. The 2023 Tacoma has greater towing and cargo capacity than the 2024 one.
At the present time buying a new (not driven) 2023 Tacoma, and even a 4-Runner, is nearly as expensive as a 2024 Tacoma or 4-Runner. I am buying a 2023 Tacoma TRD as a gift to my wife. It has been driven 14 miles, and out of the dealership I will pay $48,000. There are lots of 2024 Tacoma and Tundra trucks collecting dust at the parking lots of the local dealerships, and a high demand for the 2023 models. Several automakers are producing hybrid trucks. It started with the Ram hybrid truck, then FORD has another mid-size one, and now Toyota is coming with the Stout, probably because they don't burn as much fuel.
For example, one of the most popular Toyota midsize trucks up to 2023, the Tacoma, no longer has a 6 cylinder engine starting in 2024. Now it has a 4-cylinder turbo engine. It is a very nice engine, but even so its longevity is questioned, at least compared to the 6-cylinder one. All the problems with this older engine have been iron-out already, while the 4-cylinder turbo engine is new. Also, in order to achieve greater torque with the smaller engine, higher engine RPM is needed, which in turn increases fuel consumption and engine plus turbo wear. The 2023 Tacoma has greater towing and cargo capacity than the 2024 one.
At the present time buying a new (not driven) 2023 Tacoma, and even a 4-Runner, is nearly as expensive as a 2024 Tacoma or 4-Runner. I am buying a 2023 Tacoma TRD as a gift to my wife. It has been driven 14 miles, and out of the dealership I will pay $48,000. There are lots of 2024 Tacoma and Tundra trucks collecting dust at the parking lots of the local dealerships, and a high demand for the 2023 models. Several automakers are producing hybrid trucks. It started with the Ram hybrid truck, then FORD has another mid-size one, and now Toyota is coming with the Stout, probably because they don't burn as much fuel.
I'm just going to disagree with this part. Most larger pickup trucks probably have never had a trailer hooked up, or cargo that exceeds that of a 90's compact Toyota pickup truck. Even those purchased by contractors.
RE: the other parts of your comments, I agree that most ICE/Hybrid prices are here to stay...
I'm not sure I agree that there will be cheaper options with different engines. The thing is, even with smaller engines, the cost to the customer is probably the same. I'm not sure a standard Hemi costs all that much more than a smaller hybrid engine with the battery. There just is a lot more technology required to run these systems.
Also, for EVs to drop in price, we will need a major investment from the government. There are just too much tooling costs that takes years and years to recoup. Tesla took YEARS to be able to get the 3/Y and S/X down to the price they are. Chinese vehicles have the government funding to keep their prices down...
My opinion...
Hybrid > EVs IMHO. And should've been the next logical step.
The designs wouldn't have needed to be as radical (ugly...albeit getting better). Weight would've been better which would improve tyre longevity and general efficiency. And reduced cost of production and implementing charging points.
And there would've been more uptake from customers.
Most of the initial fanfare for EVs was due to Govt grants and reduced road tax and permit charges. It was legitimately cheaper to own an EV. Now most of those benefits are either gone or reduced
Buying a used EV here is actually more detrimental than getting a new one or getting a used ICE/Hybrid. Which defeats the whole purpose/argument for EVs.
And is why so many Taycans and Teslas are sitting on forecourts wasting away.
The designs wouldn't have needed to be as radical (ugly...albeit getting better). Weight would've been better which would improve tyre longevity and general efficiency. And reduced cost of production and implementing charging points.
And there would've been more uptake from customers.
Most of the initial fanfare for EVs was due to Govt grants and reduced road tax and permit charges. It was legitimately cheaper to own an EV. Now most of those benefits are either gone or reduced
Buying a used EV here is actually more detrimental than getting a new one or getting a used ICE/Hybrid. Which defeats the whole purpose/argument for EVs.
And is why so many Taycans and Teslas are sitting on forecourts wasting away.
For my use case, Hybrids don't cut it for me. If Hybrids could give me the battery range for my daily use (50 - 60 miles with winters) then I would consider them. But then I would have a problem with almost never using the fuel in the tank. I also want a vehicle with some pep in its step.
I think we need EVs to drive the battery technology to improve the battery range of Hybrids...
I have 2 used EVs that have made life easier for my wife and me. We charge every night at home and drive as much as we need to in the day. We haven't really been on any road trips since the transition to full EV. We did go Tesla, so we have had the SC network accessible to us.
Clearly Hybrids win on road trips, but for those of us who have daily access to a charger, EVs win for daily use. Also, a road trip win is subjective, as a significant number of people stop for at least 20 minutes every 120-150 miles which is adequate time for a L3+ charger to replenish.
I am in the US, living in the Northeast in a major metroplex (living in the suburbs).
My wife's 2010 Rover had a 5L V8 producing 400HP. Her 2016 and now 2019 have a 3L V6 Supercharged producing 340/365HP.
The 5L V8 got better mileage. Like over 10% better. So now less power and worse mileage. SHM.
The next generation of VW plugin hybrids have a range of 100km (60 miles). If you mostly use them as an EV then they will occasionally run the ICE to stop the fuel going stale.
The larger pickup trucks I am referring to are similar to the Tundra with a 5.7L engine, and the FORD 250-350 Super-duty trucks, etc. The towing capacities of these trucks are a lot greater than the towing capacity of the mid-size trucks. For example, my neighbor has a very large ocean boat, and since we live in the interior of Alaska he tows his boat a little over 365 miles from Fairbanks, to Valdez. He cannot do it with a 2023 Tacoma, nor any other midsize truck. To tow this boat he drives his Tundra. Most of the local contractors have to move Bobcats, smaller backhoes and front end loaders, pickup trucks, and so on, and use car and equipment haulers (large flat trailers). The trailers by themselves are to carry (tow) in excess of 10,000 pounds.
I was not saying that a different engine will be cheaper (more on that follows below). I was referring to the 2024 Tacoma's 4-cylinder turbo engine versus the 2023 Tacoma's 6-cylinder engine's reliability. Driving in the city both engines consume similar amounts of gasoline; it is on highway driving that the 4-cylinder engine aided by the turbo consumes somewhere around 2 MPG less than the larger 6-cylinder engine in the 2023 Tacoma. However, the 4-cylinder engine's RPM has to be faster than the 6-cylinder engine in order to achieve or surpass the 6-cylinder engine.
These are some specs of the 2024 Tacoma engines (every upgrade costs more):
-2.4L Turbo, 228HP/243 lb foot-pound torque
-iForce upgrade, 270 HP/317 lb foot-pound
-iForce Max, 326 HP/465 lb foot-pound
The 2024 2WD tacoma's MPG = 23 MPG combined (21 city/26 highway). Upgrading to the 4WD 2024 tacoma the MPG drops by 2 gallons across the board. It means that downsizing the 6 cylinder engine with a 4-cylinder/turbo one is done to meet some of the CAFE and other government standards to reduce emissions. But the 2024 tacoma isn't any cheaper than the 2023 Tacoma. In fact, both the 2023 Tacoma SR5 and 4-Runner are in high demand by consumers than the 2024 models.
Yes. The smaller 3L engine runs at a higher RPM, specially when driving "uphill" or when passing other vehicles on the road. The equation can be offset by coupling the V6 with a transmission that has more "speeds." In this case, on a flat road the automatic (or manual) transmission can shift to a higher gear, and the engine's RPM drops...lets say to 1,500 RPM instead of staying at 1,900 RPM. Maybe your wife's 1019 model's transmission has about the same number of speeds as the V8?
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What’s the grams/km of CO2 on those huge engine trucks? I can’t imagine how much the tax would be!
i know a lot of people who have full sized trucks and I can easily say that they never tow and the cargo capacity was not part of their buying decisions. There's work trucks and tradesmen who need them, to be sure, but most consumers that have a full size truck in the driveway - at least in the Boston area, are not using for that purpose.
Its like buying a jeep fully decked out and not going off roading - people have a name for that - mall crawler. I don't know if that applies to trucks but its a similar point I think
In the US, none.
Our gas guzzler tax is based on fuel economy than engine size.
This is correct. And I was also including more than just 1/2 ton, I was also including 3/4 ton and 1-ton trucks. MOST full-sized pickup trucks, including those owned by contractors never have a load in the bed or pulled behind. There are those that use them, but most that are sold never do. There clearly are people who use them, but I would say majority do not.
Contractors typically have work trucks, and their personal trucks. The ones their employees use, or they use for work, are usually the stripped-down white paint tucks. They buy the absolute minimum they can and replace as frequently as they can afford to minimize downtime.
Don't trucks get an exemption here. I don't think trucks get the gas guzzler tax; I think it is only passenger cars.
So that’s why SUV’s are so popular over there. Can’t stand the things.
I think you meant 5.7L
. Even the big Ford Godzilla motor is only 7.3L.And a Tundra and Super Duty are not in the same class. I currently have a '21 F-250 6.7L and is has pulled its fair share of trailers.
But since we moved, I am considering going back to a gasser even though I much prefer the way diesels drive. And the gasser I am considering, the Toyota Tundra. My buddy has one and it is sharp.
There is a huge difference in MPG in my '21 SD vs my '18 SD. Going from the 6-speed to 10-speed transmission made a huge difference. It seems to hunt for gears sometimes, but not enough to become an annoyance.
Plus if they are over 6000# you can deduct the cost from your taxes under Section 179. Assuming of course you use the vehicle for business.
You are correct (I will edit my post shortly). My Tundra has a 5.7L V8 engine. I too tow some trailers during the summer (travel trailer, 16-foot trailer loaded with UTVs and sometimes a car).I think you meant 5.7L
And a Tundra and Super Duty are not in the same class. I currently have a '21 F-250 6.7L and is has pulled its fair share of trailers.
But since we moved, I am considering going back to a gasser even though I much prefer the way diesels drive. And the gasser I am considering, the Toyota Tundra. My buddy has one and it is sharp.
There is a huge difference in MPG in my '21 SD vs my '18 SD. Going from the 6-speed to 10-speed transmission made a huge difference. It seems to hunt for gears sometimes, but not enough to become an annoyance.
Plus if they are over 6000# you can deduct the cost from your taxes under Section 179. Assuming of course you use the vehicle for business.
Well, the range of cargo and towing capacity of any vehicle is just an option when buying a vehicle. If the person buys any vehicle based on a need, for example, a contractor who may have to tow a heavy or a light trailer and so on, then he or she has to decide which vehicle to buy. The cargo and towing capacity is just an option, regardless if you exceed it or not. If you exceed the cargo or towing capacity, then you may have to buy another vehicle.
One can assume that "city folks" buying a truck, a race car, or the Jeep you are referring to do just "for looks" (to show off), but in reality there is a pretty good chance that this is one's assumptions at play.
Now, lest say that I live in a city and "want" any type of vehicle (truck, EV, motorcycle, and so on), just because that's what I like to do and not because of a towing capacity; there is nothing wrong with it
Where I live most people have trucks and cars in their households, but there are families (or single people) who may only afford one vehicle, regardless of kind, so that's the vehicle everyone in the family drives. It may be a work truck, or not. My wife and I have two trucks, a small car, RAV4 V6, UTV, and ATV. We have a couple of trailers, a travel trailer (sold a heavier one recently) and soon buying a lighter and newer travel trailer. For the heavier loads we drive the larger truck (Tundra), and for the rest (to buy heating fuel in bulk, or a washer, or dryer, lumber, top soil and so on), we drive a Silverado. For a trip to the supermarket (somewhere around 20 miles away) we drive the RAV4, or just the Corolla.
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you really got to get out of Alaska more
Come to CA, I don't need to make assumptions when almost every household has more than 2 cars and people drive their full-size trucks on 50 mile 1-way commutes 5 days/week, single person ...