The Dell XPS One - competition for iMac ??

[sushi]

Its a much better layout than the iMac. 2XUSB, media slots, FW and headphone on the side.

The Dell XPS Desktop has both, side and rear connectors.

The best of both worlds.

Duh, iMac connectors are on the back....

Look again, the Dell has connectors on the back as well.

Plus on the side it has a media card reader built in. Handy for uploading digital camera pictures.

Remember, with Apple, it's all about image and aesthetics. If you want easily accessible ports, go ahead with the dHell...

The Dell has rear ports too, plus side ones. Makes it very convenient to use.

And woe the mere mortal that doesn’t kneel at Apple’s shrine

The Dell XPS Desktop looks like a nice system. Plus it runs Windows. My bet is that it will sell well to those looking for an All-in-One type computer.

 

[flopticalcube]

Well, there ARE the two USB ports on the iMac's aluminum wired keyboard. I thought they were totally useless since I couldn't use them with any device requiring any power like my iPod until I realized I had the keyboard plugged into a USB hub. As per Apple's website, which I was unaware of, plugging the keyboard directly into a USB port on the back of the iMac itself allows you to use the to keyboard ports for any USB device.

Many devices won't fit in the tight space under the keyboard. They are not truly powered. The keyboard is a passive hub because not only does it not provide any power of its own to the two ports, it takes power from the iMac for itself. This is why some devices like USB powered HDs can't suck enough juice out of these ports to run properly.

 

[GoodWatch]

Plus it runs Windows. My bet is that it will sell well to those looking for an All-in-One type computer.

My iMac runs Windows as well. Yes, it will cater for those who want someting stylish in their living room. People who don't care about the initial outlay and don't want a traditional PC.

 

[sushi]

The Dell XPS Desktop looks like a nice system. Plus it runs Windows. My bet is that it will sell well to those looking for an All-in-One type computer.

My iMac runs Windows as well. Yes, it will cater for those who want someting stylish in their living room. People who don't care about the initial outlay and don't want a traditional PC.

Ah yes, the iMac, or any Intel Mac can run Windows.

In fact I am doing that right now.

However, the Dell XPS Desktop comes with Windows Vista out of the box. It is not an add on. With the iMac, you must pay extra to purchase Windows to install it on your iMac. You don't with the XPS. And that is a major draw for the PC using crowd.

Plus, it just sounds simpler to them. No Parallels/VMWare. No BootCamp. Just runs Windows out of the box.

 

[GoodWatch]

Ah yes, the iMac, or any Intel Mac can run Windows.

In fact I am doing that right now.

However, the Dell XPS Desktop comes with Windows Vista out of the box. It is not an add on. With the iMac, you must pay extra to purchase Windows to install it on your iMac. You don't with the XPS. And that is a major draw for the PC using crowd.

Plus, it just sounds simpler to them. No Parallels/VMWare. No BootCamp. Just runs Windows out of the box.

Please, I’m not defending Apple nor attacking Dell. There is no means of comparison because whilst Macs have means to run Windows, PC’s do not. Apple doesn’t allow running OS X on non-Apple hardware. It is a moot point. Macs come with OS X out of the box. It is not an add on. There is no choice.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Wrong. Did you even look at the pictures of the Dell that this thread refers to? It clearly has a 6 pin FireWire port. It is clearly powered.

Or what about cards like this that you can buy everywhere?

And about the name...FireWire is nothing more than Apple's brand name, which Apple has trademarked. That is why PC manufacturers refer to it as IEEE1394. However, anyone can use the term if they pass a compliance test and they sign a trademark agreement.

Read the article I linked above by the man who lead the FireWire development team.

As far as the Dell goes. I think it looks pretty good, and if I were to consider a PC, I may go with this one.

If I where going to buy a PC it would be for the highly expandable and cheap mini towers, which is the only offering that Apple doesn't have. I don't think I would go with the all-in-one design for the PC, because I'd be paying a premium for a machine running Windows and that is always touted as being something you can upgrade.

Ah yes, the iMac, or any Intel Mac can run Windows.

In fact I am doing that right now.

However, the Dell XPS Desktop comes with Windows Vista out of the box. It is not an add on. With the iMac, you must pay extra to purchase Windows to install it on your iMac. You don't with the XPS. And that is a major draw for the PC using crowd.

Plus, it just sounds simpler to them. No Parallels/VMWare. No BootCamp. Just runs Windows out of the box.

Yeah... I wouldn't buy a Mac just to run Windows natively all the time. I talked a friend of mine out of that and she is happy that she got her PC running Windows XP, and I am happy that she didn't spend her money on a Mac and Mac OS X just to run Windows.

The thing that gets me about Vista is the price for Ultimate, which is the only version that I can see myself getting. Paying $400 for it is a bit of a rip off, given that Mac OS X is only $130 and Linux based OSes are free.

 

[sushi]

Please, I’m not defending Apple nor attacking Dell. There is no means of comparison because whilst Macs have means to run Windows, PC’s do not. Apple doesn’t allow running OS X on non-Apple hardware. It is a moot point. Macs come with OS X out of the box. It is not an add on. There is no choice.

Not attacking you, but not sure I understand what you mean.

Are you saying that Macs come with Mac OS X out of the box and have the ability to run Windows. But PCs come with Windows out of the box and cannot run Mac OS X. So if you want to run Mac and Windows, there is only one choice?

If that is what you are saying, I understand and completely agree.

Personally, I like both the iMac and the XPS.

Yeah... I wouldn't buy a Mac just to run Windows natively all the time. I talked a friend of mine out of that and she is happy that she got her PC running Windows XP, and I am happy that she didn't spend her money on a Mac and Mac OS X just to run Windows.

Very good point for those of us that are Mac pundits. We have to be careful to not try to switch those folks whom a Mac would not be a good solution even though for us it is.

The thing that gets me about Vista is the price for Ultimate, which is the only version that I can see myself getting. Paying $400 for it is a bit of a rip off, given that Mac OS X is only $130 and Linux based OSes are free.

I don't understand Microsoft sometimes. Their Vista offering is one of those times. Too many versions. And most are way too expensive.

A week ago I was at my favorite local computer shop that specializes in build your own offerings. They had just gotten in a large order of Windows XP. Seems the build your own crowd, at least here in Japan, is still purchasing Windows XP.

As with most of Microsoft's OS'es (Win95SR2, Win98SE, WinXPSP2, etc.), it is best to wait until the second version. It looks like Vista is no exception.

 

[ceres]

Not attacking you, but not sure I understand what you mean.

Are you saying that Macs come with Mac OS X out of the box and have the ability to run Windows. But PCs come with Windows out of the box and cannot run Mac OS X. So if you want to run Mac and Windows, there is only one choice?

If that is what you are saying, I understand and completely agree.

Personally, I like both the iMac and the XPS.


Very good point for those of us that are Mac pundits. We have to be careful to not try to switch those folks whom a Mac would not be a good solution even though for us it is.


I don't understand Microsoft sometimes. Their Vista offering is one of those times. Too many versions. And most are way too expensive.

A week ago I was at my favorite local computer shop that specializes in build your own offerings. They had just gotten in a large order of Windows XP. Seems the build your own crowd, at least here in Japan, is still purchasing Windows XP.

As with most of Microsoft's OS'es (Win95SR2, Win98SE, WinXPSP2, etc.), it is best to wait until the second version. It looks like Vista is no exception.

Well, in some countries you can buy vista oem versions that cost around 130-150 usd for the ultimate flavor und around 100 for home premium.

 

[takao]

The thing that gets me about Vista is the price for Ultimate, which is the only version that I can see myself getting. Paying $400 for it is a bit of a rip off, given that Mac OS X is only $130 and Linux based OSes are free.

depends if you can get system builder prices or not
checking with local store the price for vista is between 75 (ironical the 32bit home premium is cheaper than home basic .. for whatever reason) and 160 euros (ultimate 64 bit)
besides ultimate version the home versions are all around 75-90 bucks and business vista is 130

also don't forget those media center features which are included in the ultimate vista


i still wonder who buys vista at retail if you can simply order it with 1/3 of the price

edit: not even talking about some student promotions... a friend took a course about some windows stuff and got a vista disk for free
needless to say he took the course twice

 

[pubjoe]

Whenever these debates come up, why does no one ever mention:

<cut>

 

[flopticalcube]

Whenever these debates come up, why does no one ever mention:

Because we are not supposed to point people to websites that help people break the EULA.

 

[pubjoe]

Because we are not supposed to point people to websites that help people break the EULA.

Oops!

 

[ceres]

Well, there ARE the two USB ports on the iMac's aluminum wired keyboard. I thought they were totally useless since I couldn't use them with any device requiring any power like my iPod until I realized I had the keyboard plugged into a USB hub. As per Apple's website, which I was unaware of, plugging the keyboard directly into a USB port on the back of the iMac itself allows you to use the to keyboard ports for any USB device.

Yes but there seems to be a problem anyway as, for instance, my Sony Flash Walkman cannot be charged via the keyboard usb plug. I get a message that current is not sufficient. I would definitely appreciate additional ports on the back. The AL Imac´s Southbridge can handle 8 usb 2.0 ports natively so it´s just a matter of providing the headers. BTW, what´s the deal with tigers crippled USB 2.0 transfer rates? How is the Mac THE digital media hub if copying a 4gb card from your camcorder is taking much less time on any cheapo pc?
Firewire is dead. It is nowhere to be found on currend hd camcorders, dslrs. Not even Sony, a long time advocate of ilink/firewire , has included ieee34 connectivity for how many yrs? Firewire (especially 800) is a waste of time.
The mere fact that there aren´t functioning windows drivers out there makes this so called solution a niche product.
I haven´t come across a single 2007 consumer electronics device that makes use of it. eSata is the future (present for pc)of externall HDD Storage and USB 3.0 will be finalized soon afaik. So it´s just a damn question of having these ports on the back of the Mac. I can´t see how anything else will be viable in 2008.

 

[SaSaSushi]

Many devices won't fit in the tight space under the keyboard. They are not truly powered. The keyboard is a passive hub because not only does it not provide any power of its own to the two ports, it takes power from the iMac for itself. This is why some devices like USB powered HDs can't suck enough juice out of these ports to run properly.

I haven't actually tried connecting a true "high-powered" device like a USB HD (my external is Firewire) but Apple only says on their website that in order to use such devices you need to plug the keyboard directly into one of the iMac's USB ports.

What devices are you having trouble fitting into the USB ports on the Apple keyboard? I suppose a particularly fat thumb drive might give you troubles but I can't imagine any standard USB cable connector not fitting.

Yes, the keyboard is a passive device and the USB devices suck power directly from the iMac but so would USB ports on the front of the iMac or the side of the iMac. I don't see the problem there.

I don't mind plugging my Firewire HD into the back of my iMac because I never have need to remove it. I think the keyboard USB ports are designed for those devices that you would have need to remove regularly.

 

[SaSaSushi]

Yes but there seems to be a problem anyway as, for instance, my Sony Flash Walkman cannot be charged via the keyboard usb plug. I get a message that current is not sufficient. I would definitely appreciate additional ports on the back.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't calling you guys liars or anything, just pointing out that Apple seems to advertise the keyboard's USB ports as capable of running any USB device no matter what the power requirements.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time they didn't deliver exactly as they advertised though.

 

[Digital Skunk]

A week ago I was at my favorite local computer shop that specializes in build your own offerings. They had just gotten in a large order of Windows XP. Seems the build your own crowd, at least here in Japan, is still purchasing Windows XP.

As with most of Microsoft's OS'es (Win95SR2, Win98SE, WinXPSP2, etc.), it is best to wait until the second version. It looks like Vista is no exception.

Yes indeed. I would rather run XP right now than Vista. All of the issues that were around in the early release days are gone for the most part, but I'd still be more comfortable using a ver2 of the OS on my Mac or any PC that I may purchase in the future. I feel that way about Leopard as well. I just installed a copy of it on a friend of mine's iMac 2.8GHz and the login screen only showed "Other" as an option and couldn't login on to the machine. Come to find out that it's a noted problem, with a fix of course, but she and I were scratching our heads over the matter, and I had to give Apple a "Come on! You should know better" for that.

Yes but there seems to be a problem anyway as, for instance, my Sony Flash Walkman cannot be charged via the keyboard usb plug. I get a message that current is not sufficient. I would definitely appreciate additional ports on the back. The AL Imac´s Southbridge can handle 8 usb 2.0 ports natively so it´s just a matter of providing the headers. BTW, what´s the deal with tigers crippled USB 2.0 transfer rates? How is the Mac THE digital media hub if copying a 4gb card from your camcorder is taking much less time on any cheapo pc?

Firewire is dead. It is nowhere to be found on currend hd camcorders, dslrs. Not even Sony, a long time advocate of ilink/firewire , has included ieee34 connectivity for how many yrs? Firewire (especially 800) is a waste of time.
The mere fact that there aren´t functioning windows drivers out there makes this so called solution a niche product.

I haven´t come across a single 2007 consumer electronics device that makes use of it. eSata is the future (present for pc)of externall HDD Storage and USB 3.0 will be finalized soon afaik. So it´s just a damn question of having these ports on the back of the Mac. I can´t see how anything else will be viable in 2008.

Firewire isn't dead because everyone in the professional industry still uses FW to transfer large amounts of data. Consumer camcorders may not use it, but professional HD, SD, DVCAM, DVCPRO, and BETA camcorders still use it, and live by it. All current pro HD camcorders use it, as well as many DTE boxes and even AJA's HD IO box. FW400 and 800 are far superior to USB2.0 and the transfer speeds aren't limited by the OS to my understanding... I think it's the fact that USB doesn't have a sustained data transfer rate, which is why FW400 with a 400Mbit/s transfer rate is more stable at streaming data than USB 2.0 with a 480Mbits/s transfer rate. FW800 has 800MBits/s which makes it king over powered ports until eSATA draws power from the ports, or USB 3.0 is unveiled.

The problem with the USB keyboard is that the keyboard itself is drawing power from the hub on the iMac, and it can't draw enough current to power itself and the USB ports it has on either side. It can power a thumb drive no problem, and many USB HDDs, but anything that needs large amounts of current is better attached via the back of the machine.

 

[sushi]

Yes indeed. I would rather run XP right now than Vista. All of the issues that were around in the early release days are gone for the most part, but I'd still be more comfortable using a ver2 of the OS on my Mac or any PC that I may purchase in the future. I feel that way about Leopard as well. I just installed a copy of it on a friend of mine's iMac 2.8GHz and the login screen only showed "Other" as an option and couldn't login on to the machine. Come to find out that it's a noted problem, with a fix of course, but she and I were scratching our heads over the matter, and I had to give Apple a "Come on! You should know better" for that.

The fun of being on the bleeding edge!

 

[flopticalcube]

I haven't actually tried connecting a true "high-powered" device like a USB HD (my external is Firewire) but Apple only says on their website that in order to use such devices you need to plug the keyboard directly into one of the iMac's USB ports.

What devices are you having trouble fitting into the USB ports on the Apple keyboard? I suppose a particularly fat thumb drive might give you troubles but I can't imagine any standard USB cable connector not fitting.

Yes, the keyboard is a passive device and the USB devices suck power directly from the iMac but so would USB ports on the front of the iMac or the side of the iMac. I don't see the problem there.

I don't mind plugging my Firewire HD into the back of my iMac because I never have need to remove it. I think the keyboard USB ports are designed for those devices that you would have need to remove regularly.

The problem is that each USB port on the iMac can provide full power. The best the keyboard can do is provide two ports each providing less than half power (the keyboard drawing some itself).

Cables fit OK but things like MP3 players or media card readers need to be plugged in the back (or have an extension cable). They really need easy frontal or side access.

 

[sushi]

Firewire is dead. It is nowhere to be found on currend hd camcorders, dslrs. Not even Sony, a long time advocate of ilink/firewire , has included ieee34 connectivity for how many yrs? Firewire (especially 800) is a waste of time.

Since you mentioned Sony. Sony still has iLink on their professional Camcorders. Many Sony laptops still come with iLink built in.

FW transfer speeds are still much faster than USB. That may change with USB 3.0 specs.

FW800 is great for external HDs. FW allows for fast external 2.5 inch HDs without needing an extra power supply.

Many PC Mobos come with FW.

FW is not dead yet.

 

[ceres]

Since you mentioned Sony. Sony still has iLink on their professional Camcorders. Many Sony laptops still come with iLink built in.

FW transfer speeds are still much faster than USB. That may change with USB 3.0 specs.

FW800 is great for external HDs. FW allows for fast external 2.5 inch HDs without needing an extra power supply.

Many PC Mobos come with FW.

FW is not dead yet.

That is correct. I think the keyword is "not yet". IEEE 1394 certainly isn´t happening outside the professional realm at the moment. That´s where the problem is imo.
I´d like to see FW 800 on a consumer cam such as the latest panasonics but it´s not going to happen.

 

[HLdan]

The Dell XPS Desktop looks like a nice system. Plus it runs Windows. My bet is that it will sell well to those looking for an All-in-One type computer.

It runs Windows? That's a plus?

 

[Digital Skunk]

The problem is that each USB port on the iMac can provide full power. The best the keyboard can do is provide two ports each providing less than half power (the keyboard drawing some itself).

Cables fit OK but things like MP3 players or media card readers need to be plugged in the back (or have an extension cable). They really need easy frontal or side access.

I can see needing more ports, but front access may not be as big of an issue for a lot of people. I had an issue with limited access on the PowerMac G4, since i usually had it on the floor, and it was heavy like none other. But the iMac is much lighter, and easier to move. If anything though keep it on the side, and leave the front as pure as possible.

That is correct. I think the keyword is "not yet". IEEE 1394 certainly isn´t happening outside the professional realm at the moment. That´s where the problem is imo.
I´d like to see FW 800 on a consumer cam such as the latest panasonics but it´s not going to happen.

I don't think there is a problem with FW staying in the pro realm. There are many other techs that are strickly pro that I don't think anyone would be screaming for in their machines. Fibre Channel is wicked fast, especially with RAIDed drives, but to get that speed you have to pay for the RAID enclosures the FC ports and the cables.

FW800 on a consumer cam would be nice due to the speed increase and the large size of HD footage, but you are right, it's not going to happen. I'd rather see camcorders adopt the USB 3.0 standard.

 

[czachorski]

My Sony HDR-HC3 HDV Camcorder came with firewire - it's hardly a pro model.

 

[eXan]

You are talking about camcoders not having FW800. If i'm not mistaken, cams use only 100 Mbit/sec of bandwidth, dont they? They transfer data to the computer at real-time speed I think. At least my cam does... so even the full bandwidth of FW400 isnt used? (my cam is Panasonic NV-DS65)

Plz correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[GoodWatch]

The thing that gets me about Vista is the price for Ultimate, which is the only version that I can see myself getting. Paying $400 for it is a bit of a rip off, given that Mac OS X is only $130 and Linux based OSes are free.

And how much is OS X if you don't own a Mac yet? The price of the less costly Mac Mini. In which case you get a free computer with OS X