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The final blow for real gaming on the Mac, or the beginning of a new era?
- Thread starter Frankied22
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Buying Take 2 Interactive (who owns Rockstar Games) isn't a horrible idea for Apple.
Apple could have used a sale like that to make id Tech 7 the official game engine for iOS and macOS. Which it appears will be what Microsoft will be able to do to get out of using Unreal Engine.
It would be very weird for Apple to acquire a game studio or engine at this stage. Apple simply doesn't do games. They've never developed a game (well, except perhaps some toy games for iPods).
Unless they reveal a new game console or something equivalent (which I find unlikely), their attitude towards game studios isn't going to change.
And even then, I wouldn't expect Apple to buy a studio like bethesda. Almost all their games are of the violent type, and I suppose there's sex in some of them as well. Not that I personally mind, but do you see Apple editing such content? With that said, Apple produced "See", which apparently includes some violence. But still, this is not Doom.
Unless they reveal a new game console or something equivalent (which I find unlikely), their attitude towards game studios isn't going to change.
And even then, I wouldn't expect Apple to buy a studio like bethesda. Almost all their games are of the violent type, and I suppose there's sex in some of them as well. Not that I personally mind, but do you see Apple editing such content? With that said, Apple produced "See", which apparently includes some violence. But still, this is not Doom.
I was hoping Apple would maintain two lines of computers for the foreseeable future. The Mac Pro makes sense to keep Intel as well as at least one Macbook Pro (for people that need Intel Windows 10 for business use) and maybe at least one iMac (for Windows compatibility and medium gaming use), but going 100% to ARM will pretty much kill (or slow if there's an Intel emulator) pretty much all commercial software outside some major packages. Remember how little software there was for PowerPC Macs compared to Intel Macs (where a literal explosion of both commercial and shareware and PD conversions then happened very quickly as it wasn't that much bother to port many programs to the Mac too, particularly when there was a compatible graphics library (OpenGL).
I mean I have had NO PROBLEM finding almost any software I'd want to use on my Mac that is available on Windows right now outside some of the games. That will almost certainly change with going to ARM. Many put half-hearted ports into the Mac as it was. Now many just won't bother at all and I mean applications, not games. Sure, you'll see Photoshop converted eventually (god knows how long it will take them given their slow/lame iPad Pro versions) and probably Office 365 and a LOT of iOS apps (that are low-key compared to real open platform computer apps), but this is the DEATH of the Macintosh computer as we knew it and like in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, it's being met with thunderous applause by all the people that don't comprehend or care what's happening as they are happy just running Safari and Apple Mail and doing Facebook. Yippee.
Look at the poor suckers that bought the new Mac Pro. What kind of long-term support is it going to get running high-end Intel processors? Who's going to bother for a handful of users? What ARM platform can replace that model? Seriously? Why'd they even bother to make it if they're going to dump Intel??? It's insanity! OTOH, I think most of us knew they were unlikely to support it after a year or two anyway (meaning hardware updates, etc.) like every other Mac Pro model that's come out in the past 12 years. How a company valued at/near $2 TRILLION cannot manage to keep ALL their Mac hardware models updated EVERY SINGLE YEAR is BEYOND ME. Little PC shops manage to do it and have managed since the 1980s yet Apple can't update their motherboards and/or hardware every year? It's ridiculous. The only reason I've stuck around is the stability of the platform compared to Windows. My Mac Mini is used for surfing, etc., but it hosts my whole house server for my home theater setup (movies, music, photos, etc. connected to it) as well. I can run for MONTHS without having to reboot. And even IF I boot into Windows 10, I've got the software for it to read Mac drives and it's set up to host the same media with the same protocols (i.e. SMB3 and iTunes is available as well) and so my streaming devices (Shield, ATV, Zidoo, etc.) don't even know or care which OS is running. THAT might still work with a new Mac, but most of my other software won't (or would have to run under emulation).
How long until Apple shuts out the Mac as an open computer platform and requires ALL Mac software to be on the Mac App store? Even if there were games to install, Steam wouldn't work anymore. The App store sucks for games compared to Steam! One of the great things about Steam was that you got the Mac, Linux and Windows versions of the same game for one price so you didn't have to worry about migrating to another platform, should it become necessary (as it apparently will). Boot Camp was great for running certain games, but even IF there's an ARM Boot Camp for Windows 10 on ARM, how many games will Windows 10 ARM support? Not many. If all software has to come from the App Store (so Apple can steal that 30% of developers money!), you KNOW they will also play Communist Dictator and tell you what software you can and cannot run on your computer (as they already do with iOS devices!) That means no emulators, competitors for major software packages, etc. Media viewers like KODI would probably be banned as well. Like I said, the Mac will become an iOS device instead of an open computer platform and that's a shame. I'd rather see it sold to another company than ruined by its own parent company.
I mean I have had NO PROBLEM finding almost any software I'd want to use on my Mac that is available on Windows right now outside some of the games. That will almost certainly change with going to ARM. Many put half-hearted ports into the Mac as it was. Now many just won't bother at all and I mean applications, not games. Sure, you'll see Photoshop converted eventually (god knows how long it will take them given their slow/lame iPad Pro versions) and probably Office 365 and a LOT of iOS apps (that are low-key compared to real open platform computer apps), but this is the DEATH of the Macintosh computer as we knew it and like in Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, it's being met with thunderous applause by all the people that don't comprehend or care what's happening as they are happy just running Safari and Apple Mail and doing Facebook. Yippee.
Look at the poor suckers that bought the new Mac Pro. What kind of long-term support is it going to get running high-end Intel processors? Who's going to bother for a handful of users? What ARM platform can replace that model? Seriously? Why'd they even bother to make it if they're going to dump Intel??? It's insanity! OTOH, I think most of us knew they were unlikely to support it after a year or two anyway (meaning hardware updates, etc.) like every other Mac Pro model that's come out in the past 12 years. How a company valued at/near $2 TRILLION cannot manage to keep ALL their Mac hardware models updated EVERY SINGLE YEAR is BEYOND ME. Little PC shops manage to do it and have managed since the 1980s yet Apple can't update their motherboards and/or hardware every year? It's ridiculous. The only reason I've stuck around is the stability of the platform compared to Windows. My Mac Mini is used for surfing, etc., but it hosts my whole house server for my home theater setup (movies, music, photos, etc. connected to it) as well. I can run for MONTHS without having to reboot. And even IF I boot into Windows 10, I've got the software for it to read Mac drives and it's set up to host the same media with the same protocols (i.e. SMB3 and iTunes is available as well) and so my streaming devices (Shield, ATV, Zidoo, etc.) don't even know or care which OS is running. THAT might still work with a new Mac, but most of my other software won't (or would have to run under emulation).
How long until Apple shuts out the Mac as an open computer platform and requires ALL Mac software to be on the Mac App store? Even if there were games to install, Steam wouldn't work anymore. The App store sucks for games compared to Steam! One of the great things about Steam was that you got the Mac, Linux and Windows versions of the same game for one price so you didn't have to worry about migrating to another platform, should it become necessary (as it apparently will). Boot Camp was great for running certain games, but even IF there's an ARM Boot Camp for Windows 10 on ARM, how many games will Windows 10 ARM support? Not many. If all software has to come from the App Store (so Apple can steal that 30% of developers money!), you KNOW they will also play Communist Dictator and tell you what software you can and cannot run on your computer (as they already do with iOS devices!) That means no emulators, competitors for major software packages, etc. Media viewers like KODI would probably be banned as well. Like I said, the Mac will become an iOS device instead of an open computer platform and that's a shame. I'd rather see it sold to another company than ruined by its own parent company.
Actually, Apple has cultivated a tremendous number of developers who are creating millions of iPhone and iPad applications. By transitioning to Apple silicon for Mac, and creating new APIs and Frameworks, they've actually made the Mac now accessible to those same developers whereas developing for a traditional Intel Mac required different expertise. When Apple transitioned to Intel, developers familiar with Intel were able to more easily convert their current Windows applications and make them functional on Mac (at least part of the code base). Over time, Apple has slowly transitioned these same developers to newer APIs and frameworks that will enable a more seamless recompile for new Apple Silicon to help keep greater continuity. So, now you have both the iOS developers and many/most Intel developers transitioning to Mac and Apple Silicon. While it's certainly possible that some developers won't bother, those same developers tend to produce half-hearted ports anyway. I predict that there will be a wealth of new, relatively high-quality software for Mac after the transition, possibly to the extent that we see an even greater amount than currently. Its harder to stand out on iOS now, but the Mac will be a new platform and a new way for developers to make a name for themselves and find new revenue streams.
Windows (part-time) developer here. Recently ported the core of a 30.000 line Windows C# / .Net application over to SwiftUI and Mac. I must say I was very impressed with what Apple has done. They have truly lowered the barriers!
PowerPC was a completely different beast compared to the mainstream x86 CPUs and Apple back then was very different from Apple today. Back in the day, developing for both x86 and PowerPC was a significant challenge. Today, developing for both x86 and ARM on an Apple platform is a breeze.
You are both overestimating the challenge of building ARM application packages and underestimating the money to be made by providing software for Mac. A developer is unwilling (for whatever reason) to make an ARM version? Then someone else will provide comparable software.
Speaking about Office and Photoshop: it was already confirmed that native ARM versions of these software suites will be ready to go. They had working versions of them in June. And since you mention iOS apps: it's more work to convert an iOS app to macOS than an existing Intel macOS app to an ARM macOS app...
Aspyr actually stopped selling Mac games since June last year..
The Epic lawsuit, is another big blow to Mac gaming..
and to top it all off, Microsoft strategically just bought Bethesda, so no more games from them either..
Which kinda reminds of Microsoft buying Bungie, who originally made a Mac release.. Halo..
Interesting to hear a developers' point of view.. What effect do you think this will have on Games made for Mac? You can't really port games made for DirectX12 right?
You don't really seem to understand most people just like doing everything on just one machine. Most people just buy ONE device for their productivity, and being able to play a game on it is a very welcome bonus.
Speaking for myself, I'm very aware of the amazing hardware available for PC today, but since I use MacOS specific software daily (Logic Pro X) I simply can't jump ship. I could easily build an awesome Windows 10 rig though but owning two or more machines just doesn't make sense to me as there are more things in life then just computers. I'd rather just invest in one really well built machine that will last me for years, (at this point that's still a Mac) to keep my digital life minimal.
I am in the camp of if a machine cannot do all I want then why am I not buying one that can?
From my understanding there is no DX12 to Metal wrapper. You could go from DX12 to Vulcan and then wrap that to Metal though.
The answer to that is as usual: "it depends". If your codebase is properly designed, changing the rendering API is usually not a big deal (unless you are using some complicated techniques that are difficult to replicate in the other API). It is always best to design the rendering pipeline with multiple APIs in mind, this will allow you to steer clear of common pitfalls and should make porting easy.
For the Mac's sake, I hope you're right, but gaming dropped off big time after Apple implemented Metal and dumped OpenGL and so to pretend the switch to ARM is no big deal at all isn't so clear, IMO. If it were no big deal then all the Windows apps would be ported for Windows 10 Arm now and they're just not. Windows phone failed because no one ported the apps there either. Comparing limited mostly garbage iOS apps to Mac or Windows apps is a joke as well.
For a company that supposedly "stopped selling Mac games" last year, they been astonishingly prominent and active on the Mac App Store.
For instance, their Civilization VI Mac port port got updated literally yesterday.
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Are you joking? Mac never had so many native graphically demanding games out as now. Metal finally made it possible for games to have decent performance. Most Mac AAA games out there run on Metal. The fact that Unity and other game engines natively support Metal doesn’t hurt either.
From the top of my head, some recent more intense games that run decently on Mac mostly because of Metal:
- Total War series (Warhammer, Three Kingdoms, Troy)
- Divinity Original Sin 2
And there are of course many more slightly less demanding games (which are still visually complex, like Civilization 6), that got a healthy performance boost because of Metal. Thy still run better on Windows though.
One genre notably missing from the Mac are shooters. This has indeed to do with Mac's traditionally weaker GPUs and the fact that these games are very GPU demanding. It doesn't make much sense financially for developers of these games to target the 2-3% of the Macs that would be capable of running them.
I've seen a lot of people hope (and insist) that Apple will run two lines of Macs for a while. They will to an extent as they transition model by model to Intel but does fragmenting their product lines like that really sound like an Apple move? Doesn't to me.
I'd like to know what commercial software you're running that isn't available on either Mac or iOS. If its really niche stuff then maybe it won't port but if its running on a Mac now its going to run just as fast on Rosetta 2 on an ARM Mac by the sounds of it. Unless its super GPU heavy, but then it would likely be either games (and Shadow of the Tomb Raider seems to run well under Rosetta) or a major package of some kind.
Have you seen how many developers who wouldn't port to Mac have made versions of their software for iPhone and iPad? Now its an easy job to make a Mac version too.
You know the apps you already run will still work for a few years right? As long as they are doing something genuinely useful someone will fill that void. 200 million plus potential customers is an attractive prospect.
My understanding is that Creative Suite and Office are almost done already. Certainly the former anyway.
Have you seen the 128 Core ARM server chips on the market? Apple is on a 3 year process from design to market. Whatever they have in mind for Mac Pro is already running in their labs.
Moving to Apple Silicon enables Apple to update their Mac models every year on a schedule instead of waiting for Intel to bodge something new with another + on the end of it.
Your lack of naming all these critical apps that won't be ported to ARM is beginning to feel conspicuous.
They've said they won't. Managing expectations is important. People have expectations of computers they don't have of tablets and phones. I don't expect Apple to lock down Macs the same way unless malware becomes a problem of Vista-like proportions.
What makes you think Steam won't port to ARM? I'm quite sure they will. Any developer using Xcode for their Mac software will be able to put out a native ARM version without much work from what I gather.
To start with, no. But Nvidia buying ARM is a play for them to replace Intel (or be the new AMD to Apple's new Intel depending how things go). Nvidia will start making ARM CPUs and Microsoft will already have sniffed which way the wind is blowing and will be improving Windows ARM to match the Intel version as we speak.
Boot Camp is an interesting question and I hope it becomes an option but I'm not sure its as essential as it once was. Its mostly gamers who need it and I believe big games will start coming to Macs after Apple Silicon.
Do you work for Epic? Retailers have always made a cut of software. 30% being fairly typical. Going back four decades or more. Apple built a market of big spending customers, expecting a share of the profits is not stealing. Otherwise all developers would give their software away and charge for licenses in-app. So should Apple curate, host, distribute and perform QA on all these apps for free? Please. People need to grow up or stop making frivolous comments when they have no idea how business works.
None of these things are going to happen.
Microsoft hasn't got Windows 10 for ARM up to speed but they will now. Its becoming more important for them by the day.
As for games Mac, I have a feeling people are underestimating Apple's plans. It make take a little time but I bet between Metal and their custom silicon they will start doing some very cool things before too long.
For the record, Activision are already planning an AAA (their words) Call of Duty title which will run across iOS and MacOS by the time its released. I doubt they are the only ones with such ideas.
Theres always this sort of thing too:
techplanet.today
How to Play x86 AAA Windows Games on Apple Silicon Macs!
If you read my previous articles on Apple Silicon Mac Gaming, you’ll know how confident I am that Apple’s transition from Intel chips to their own Apple Silicon chips on their Mac computers is going t...
techplanet.today
Just a quick comment on this: GPU-intensive software will almost certainly run better under Rosetta, simply because Apple GPUs are going to be faster.
So tired of that crappy demo being used as an example. You can run that demo well on Intel iGPU at the lowest settings and resolution which that demo seemed to be. It's definitely not even 1080P ultra mode that's for sure.
Show me RDR2/Cyberpunk running well on AS at decent resolution and settings and I'll say Apple Silicon is now AAA tier...
That COD title is NOT the console/desktop version. It's most likely going to be watered down IOS version of which most are...
