The final blow for real gaming on the Mac, or the beginning of a new era?

[Maximara]

Is this to say that mobile gaming is real gaming? I would hope the free to play, pay to win style of most mobile gaming wouldn't be brought to the Mac, but that feels like what everyone is advocating when bringing up how easy it would be to bring iOS games to AS Macs.

Are you saying that pay to win is not in the Windows PC space then or that Star Wars Battlefront II was on mobile?!?

Pay to win came to the PC space a long time ago. At least on the mobile space it isn't a $60-$70 entry fee...or is that the type of PC gaming you want to see on the mac?!?

 

[diamond.g]

Are you saying that pay to win is not in the Windows PC space then or do mean Star Wars Battlefront II was on mobile?!?

Pay to win came to the PC space a long time ago. At least on the mobile space it isn't a $60-$70 entry fee...or is that they type of PC gaming you want to see on the mac?!?

Yeah EA learned something with that game. That style of micro transactions is not popular in the PC/Console space. Especially for full priced games. Heck folks were even resistant to having content on disc that was locked behind a “paid software update”.

 

[sosumilee]

The argument is that Apple Silicon Macs will have much better GPUs which will catapult them to an entirely different position regarding gaming capabilities. While you are right that Macs are a niche market, they represent a decent chunk of premium computers, which are already a niche market. And finally, let's not forget that gaming-capable computers are a in a way a "niche market" themselves — most PCs out there are office machines with ultra-low end integrated GPUs. Even among Steam users the overwhelming majority of machines have something like a GTX 1660 or lower. We like to talk about high-end GPUs when we look at gaming but the fact is that only few % of gamers own them.

It has nothing to do with the better GPU. The market itself is really niche and that's the biggest reason why nobody wish to support it. Also, Mac itself is really expensive for gaming. If they have money for the gaming computer, then they wouldn't even buy Mac.

Of course Apple has technologies related to gaming. Metal currently has more or less the same features as DX12. Apple has game controller support built into the OS. They have decent tools. Etc.

Metal is a joke you know that?

 

[sosumilee]

1. As I pointed out before that is not how proof works per Kusche's Parrot or Sagan's Dragon. And if you have no idea what either one of those are they are basically 'here is a totally off the wall gonzo premise - prove it isn't true': "The burden of proof should be on the people who make these statements, to show where they got their information from, to see if their conclusions and interpretations are valid and if they have left anything out." That is what absence of evidence is not evidence of absence means.
2. I have pointed out before ithe Mac is around ~10%; on what planet is that not a niche market?!
3. You did included iOS games in that sampling, right? Remember AS Mac run those games as well.
4. Didn't say it wasn't I have said on several forums here that current Mac gaming effectively blows goats. There was a time where VHS was all the rage so much that Blockbuster turned down a chance to buy a company. Perhaps you have heard of them - Netflix.
5. You said "developer friendly". So now you are claiming that crunch is developer friendly?!
6. You said "spend more for less" regarding the Mac.
7. Only if you count mobile (which apple has 1/4 of the market) "cloud gaming".One of Yahtzee's complaints about on-line gaming was (and I think still is) if you have "standard" internet be prepared for really bad lag times.
8. As I have pointed out before that was due to Intel basically FUBARing Apple up the rear end with Skylake ( "The quality assurance in Skylake was abnormally bad," François Piednoël)

I am reminded of the story of Wilhelm Kress who wanted an engine of a spastic power and weight. Sadly the company pulled an Intel and sent him an engine twice as heavy (ie more buggy then normal) resulting in his effort to launch what he planned to be the new terror weapon to fail. Years later it was shown if Kress had gotten the engine he had asked for he not the Wright brothers would have been credited with the first successful airplane.

1. That's how proofs works. Nobody is interested in Mac and that's the fact. Even Mac friednly company, blizzard, didnt support Overwatch EVEN they can.
2. Do you really think all Mac users play games out of 10%? Wow.
3. Mobile games and PC/Console games are in the different market
4. The fundermental still inferior compared to PC. Buying a company wont gonna solve this.
5. Tell me, how many AAA pc and console games were and are developed? Not, Mac but PC.
6. Mac is expensive and yet the market is too small. That's the point.
7. Do you even play games with cloud gaming service before? I guess not.
8. That's not a great excuse. Both iPhone and iPad are still expensive even with their own chips.

 

[jeanlain]

Metal is a joke you know that?

If you're willing to discuss, you will have to drop those unsubstantiated claims.

 

[sosumilee]

If you're willing to discuss, you will have to drop those unsubstantiated claims.

Why do I need to explain that since PC/Console games are dominating? Apple doesn't even invest the game industry unlike Microsoft for a long time. This is very obvious. What Apple is trying to do is bring the mobile market since it has almost 50% share while both PC and consoles are only 25% for each. i have no reasons to explain the obvious information or perhaps you wish to deny the fact?

 

[leman]

It has nothing to do with the better GPU. The market itself is really niche and that's the biggest reason why nobody wish to support it. Also, Mac itself is really expensive for gaming. If they have money for the gaming computer, then they wouldn't even buy Mac.

I am a rather passionate gamer and a hobbyist game developer. Your claim that "nobody wish to support it" is grossly overstated. Most games I am interested in have a macOS version. The problem is indeed the GPU, as lower-end Macs won't run them well.

Regarding "money for the gaming computer" — there are people who prefer Macs as their main computer and don't want to have different machines for different purposes. Nobody is talking about making Macs a gaming platform of choice. We are talking about making Macs — as general-purpose computers — more capable of gaming.

Metal is a joke you know that?

Now that's a statement How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[sosumilee]

I am a rather passionate gamer and a hobbyist game developer. Your claim that "nobody wish to support it" is grossly overstated. Most games I am interested in have a macOS version. The problem is indeed the GPU, as lower-end Macs won't run them well.

Regarding "money for the gaming computer" — there are people who prefer Macs as their main computer and don't want to have different machines for different purposes. Nobody is talking about making Macs a gaming platform of choice. We are talking about making Macs — as general-purpose computers — more capable of gaming.

That's only your own opinion and it does not represent the entire industry. Mac does not have both game IP and hardware technology. Having a great GPU does not mean it will bring more AAA games to Mac. Nintendo Switch does not have a great GPU and yet it attracts a lot of people and they even have AAA games. Clearly, Mac's platform isn't great after all. Where is COD? Battlefield? Cyberpunk? Assassin Creed? Doom? Elder Scroll? Destiny 2? Witcher 3? Warframe? Metro? God of War? Halo? Gears? Aliens Isolation? Rainbow Six? Etc? Clearly, most popular games aren't even supported while you said your games are supported and perhaps those are unpopular or released recently.

Now that's a statement How did you come to that conclusion?

Base on the market share. They still dont support ray tracing for example. I have no idea why do you even dont care about the market share? Steam has only 3% of Mac users and it's based on the registered users, not active users.

 

[leman]

Nintendo Switch does not have a great GPU and yet it attracts a lot of people and they even have AAA games. Clearly, Mac's platform isn't great after all.

I bet there are more Steam games out there for my Mac than for a Switch

They still dont support ray tracing for example.

Maybe you should get your facts straight? Metal (as of version 2.3) has full support for ray tracing.

I have no idea why do you even dont care about the market share? Steam has only 3% of Mac users and it's based on the registered users, not active users.

Because it's a chicken and egg problem. 3% sounds about right when you think about the percentage of Macs that are capable of running games at all. Intel Iris is crap no matter whether you are using Metal, Vulkan or DX12.

 

[sosumilee]

I bet there are more Steam games out there for my Mac than for a Switch

Then it will strengthen my opinion because other platforms rarely support Mac than Steam.

Maybe you should get your facts straight? Metal (as of version 2.3) has full support for ray tracing.

Not like Nvidia's ray tracing. Check your fact again.

Because it's a chicken and egg problem. 3% sounds about right when you think about the percentage of Macs that are capable of running games at all. Intel Iris is crap no matter whether you are using Metal, Vulkan or DX12.

It's less than 3% just for Steam where Mac users can find games for Mac while others dont.

 

[jeanlain]

Why do I need to explain that since PC/Console games are dominating?

How does that make Metal a joke?
And even if we used the market share as an argument, mobile devices dominate gaming, not consoles. Three years ago, there were already 148 000 apps using Metal directly, the vast majority were certainly games. This number may have doubled since then. How many games use DX12?

 

[sosumilee]

How does that make Metal a joke?
And even if we used the market share as an argument, mobile devices dominate gaming, not consoles. Three years ago, there were already 148 000 apps using Metal directly, the vast majority were certainly games. This number may have doubled since then. How many games use DX12?

We are talking about PC/Console, not mobile games. Also, cloud gaming services are coming to mobile market to compete and yet Apple was afraid to compete with them so they blocked the entire cloud gaming services. We are talking about the AAA level games, not mobile games with poor quality. How many PC/Console games use Metal?

 

[leman]

Not like Nvidia's ray tracing. Check your fact again.

Nvidia is a graphics card manufacturer. Metal is an API. Those things are completely unrelated. Metal has as much of ray tracing support as DX12 Ultimate.

It you are talking about hardware support for RT... no, Macs currently don’t have it. Based on the Metal API however it is clear that GPUs with RT support will be here soon.

And regarding market share... I’d be surprised if GPUs with hardware RT are even 3% of the market. Your arguments are nonsensical. It’s not about the market share. It’s about decisions. Studios dont invest In RT because of the market share. They invest in it because it’s “cool”.

 

[diamond.g]

So AAA games are going to come to MacOS from indie game devs that are currently putting games (that are not AAA) on iOS. Is this where we are in this thread?

 

[JMacHack]

According to a program called Go64 (it actually goes in an scans programs for 32-bit code) TF2 should run on Catalina as it says "yes" for 64-bit and Go64 flags programs like Lego Hobbit, Sim 3, Shadowgate, and Wine as having 32-bit code, while Diable III (original) gets flagged for "battle.net.bundle" code.

There is a long (and I mean long) post regarding an issue with CitySkylines which in my eyes implies the problem may be with Steam's launcher and not with Team Fortress 2. Though I do agree that odds are it will not see many more updates as it is so old.

I can't find anything that says TF2 can run on Catalina. I think given Valve's track record it's safe to assume that it doesn't, and likely won't in the future.

1. That's how proofs works. Nobody is interested in Mac and that's the fact. Even Mac friednly company, blizzard, didnt support Overwatch EVEN they can.

Activision/Blizzard, not Blizzard. There's a difference and his name is Bobby Kotick.

6. Mac is expensive and yet the market is too small. That's the point.

The same could be said about the iPhone, yet the iPhone earns more. If the RoI is there, then it'll happen.

Not like Nvidia's ray tracing. Check your fact again.

NVIDIA GUD BCUZ RAYTRASE
Can we stop this line of thought? Raytracing support in the wild is still sparse, and while I have no doubt it will become more common in the future, that gives Apple some time to catch up. The 30X0 series is the first to make Raytracing viable, and AMD's introducing hardware-accelerated Raytracing with their upcoming gen as well. I'm sure that by the time Apple's making dGPU-level Macs that they'll have hardware support for raytracing as well.

Nobody is talking about making Macs a gaming platform of choice. We are talking about making Macs — as general-purpose computers — more capable of gaming.

Well said, and I think this will be the case in the future.

The idea that every game dev will boycott Apple Silicon because "hurr durr not x86" misses the fact that most programming isn't low level anymore, nor is Apple making it substantially different in XCode to switch over.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying Macs will become a platform of choice for gaming (hardly, go to any gaming-oriented space and they'll roast you for even owning an Apple product). I just don't see the Mac gaming landscape changing from what it currently is. Mac gaming will always be second fiddle to Windows, it's just the nature of things. But there's no reason to be doom and gloom over the switch.

And as for old x86 games, I think it's a matter of patience. Eventually we will likely see emulators made for them.

 

[Maximara]

1. That's how proofs works. Nobody is interested in Mac and that's the fact. Even Mac friednly company, blizzard, didnt support Overwatch EVEN they can.
2. Do you really think all Mac users play games out of 10%? Wow.
3. Mobile games and PC/Console games are in the different market
4. The fundermental still inferior compared to PC. Buying a company wont gonna solve this.
5. Tell me, how many AAA pc and console games were and are developed? Not, Mac but PC.
6. Mac is expensive and yet the market is too small. That's the point.
7. Do you even play games with cloud gaming service before? I guess not.
8. That's not a great excuse. Both iPhone and iPad are still expensive even with their own chips.

1, If "Nobody is interested in Mac" then we wouldn't have any gamse for the Mac ego you are wrong.
2. Do you think that all PC users play games?
3. Not anymore. In fact, I play Raid on my Mac ie a mobile game on a desktop. AS is going to make that happen at a faster rate.
5. How many of those PC games are pay to win?
6, Well built (ie full gaming) PCs are expensive and the market for those is small. Your point?
7. It has been tried (OnLive) and that would up going nowhere for the reasons I presented. Service has improved since then but costs are still far higher then seen in Europe thanks to effectively monopolies in many locations.
8. Yes it is a great excuse. If you design a computer around a CPU with a certain spec and get a buggy mess (even the worker said it was abnormally bad and Q&A was basically out to lunch) then how it is your fualt?

 

[Maximara]

I can't find anything that says TF2 can run on Catalina. I think given Valve's track record it's safe to assume that it doesn't, and likely won't in the future.

I didn't say it did run. Here is what I said:

According to a program called Go64 (it actually goes in an scans programs for 32-bit code) TF2 should run on Catalina as it says "yes" for 64-bit and Go64 flags programs like Lego Hobbit, Sim 3, Shadowgate, and Wine as having 32-bit code, while Diable III (original) gets flagged for "battle.net.bundle" code.

There is a long (and I mean long) post regarding an issue with CitySkylines which in my eyes implies the problem may be with Steam's launcher and not with Team Fortress 2. Though I do agree that odds are it will not see many more updates as it is so old.

I might add that Lego Hobbit and Shadowgate are also part of my Steam library.

 

[sosumilee]

1, If "Nobody is interested in Mac" then we wouldn't have any gamse for the Mac ego you are wrong.
2. Do you think that all PC users play games?
3. Not anymore. In fact, I play Raid on my Mac ie a mobile game on a desktop. AS is going to make that happen at a faster rate.
5. How many of those PC games are pay to win?
6, Well built (ie full gaming) PCs are expensive and the market for those is small. Your point?
7. It has been tried (OnLive) and that would up going nowhere for the reasons I presented. Service has improved since then but costs are still far higher then seen in Europe thanks to effectively monopolies in many locations.
8. Yes it is a great excuse. If you design a computer around a CPU with a certain spec and get a buggy mess (even the worker said it was abnormally bad and Q&A was basically out to lunch) then how it is your fualt?

1. I keep saying AAA games. What are you talking about? Can you even tell me how many AAA games do Mac have?
2. Do you really think macOS have more games than Windows?
3. Not anymore? That's not even true. The quality itself is totally different.
4. I guess you admit it right?
5. That's out of question and you failed to answer my question.
6. Desktop computers itself is already small while the gaming laptop's market is so much bigger. Also, gaming laptops are much cheaper than Macbooks with more options.
7. You cant even pay less than $10 per month? Wow.
8. No, it's not. You didnt understand my point. AS Mac's price will be still high just for gaming.
[automerge]1603323324[/automerge]

NVIDIA GUD BCUZ RAYTRASE
Can we stop this line of thought? Raytracing support in the wild is still sparse, and while I have no doubt it will become more common in the future, that gives Apple some time to catch up. The 30X0 series is the first to make Raytracing viable, and AMD's introducing hardware-accelerated Raytracing with their upcoming gen as well. I'm sure that by the time Apple's making dGPU-level Macs that they'll have hardware support for raytracing as well.

It's not just about ray tracing but it also about technology. MS had been investing tons of money for that while Apple did not.

 

[Maximara]

1. I keep saying AAA games. What are you talking about? Can you even tell me how many AAA games do Mac have?
2. Do you really think macOS have more games than Windows?
3. Not anymore? That's not even true. The quality itself is totally different.
4. I guess you admit it right?
5. That's out of question and you failed to answer my question.
6. Desktop computers itself is already small while the gaming laptop's market is so much bigger. Also, gaming laptops are much cheaper than Macbooks with more options.
7. You cant even pay less than $10 per month? Wow.
8. No, it's not. You didnt understand my point. AS Mac's price will be still high just for gaming.

1. Tomb Raider is AAA and heck it was the one they freaking demoed!
2. When did I ever say that?
3. As I said before Mac gaming has blown goats for a long time much of it due to performance issues. AS changes that landscape.
4. What part of ALL PC users did you not understand?
5. No, asking how many PC games are now pay to win is totally valid. It isn't as you imply exclusive to the mobile space.
6. Ok this ia a real non sequitur. One of Apple's biggest problem with laptop gaming has been Intel heat throttling performance into the ground. The AS will fix that problem...then they will have to deal with all the other problems with Mac gaming.
7. That only works if you are where xfinity covers and when that rate is offered; I wasn't so I was looking at $50/month minimum and back then I would have had to buy a cable package which added another $60 to the pile.
8. Your point was nonsense. "AS Mac's price will be still high just for gaming" That comment only makes sense if you count consoles and as I said Apple's only attempt in that market was a disaster. Why you think I make that sarcastic "Pip pin cheerio" comment rather then pip pip cheerio?

 

[sosumilee]

1. Tomb Raider is AAA and heck it was the one they freaking demoed!
2. When did I ever say that?
3. As I said before Mac gaming has blown goats for a long time much of it due to performance issues. AS changes that landscape.
4. What part of ALL PC users did you not understand?
5. No, asking how many PC games are now pay to win is totally valid. It isn't as you imply exclusive to the mobile space.
6. Ok this ia a real non sequitur. One of Apple's biggest problem with laptop gaming has been Intel heat throttling performance into the ground. The AS will fix that problem...then they will have to deal with all the other problems with Mac gaming.
7. That only works if you are where xfinity covers and when that rate is offered; I wasn't so I was looking at $50/month minimum and back then I would have had to buy a cable package which added another $60 to the pile.
8. Your point was nonsense. "AS Mac's price will be still high just for gaming" That comment only makes sense if you count consoles and as I said Apple's only attempt in that market was a disaster. Why you think I make that sarcastic "Pip pin cheerio" comment rather then pip pip cheerio?

1. You are talking about un-popular AAA game? lol. And that's only one example and you failed to prove it. I said, how many AAA games do Mac has and do any of them developed from Mac, not PC?
2. Also failed to prove it. How many people would play games from Mac compared to PC? It's very obvious.
3. I said, it has nothing to do with the performance. How come Nintendo Switch is popular without a great performance and yet supports several AAA games? Both PS5 and Xbox Series X are made out of cheap APU which you cant even imagine. You see, you are the one who does not understand why Mac isn't popular for gaming.
4. You didnt even answer the question for 4.
5. It has nothing to do with my argument. You just dont wanna hear the fact that both PC and console are dominating while Mac is not. I'm talking about PC/console in here.
6. Now you are criticize Intel for poor performance while Apple is the one who made a poor quality of cooling system? There are tons of gaming laptop performs much better than Mac. Why Apple didnt make a thicker laptop then? You just lost the credibility when you argue about this toward Intel that it's their fault while Apple is also the cause. Also, having a high performance has NOTHING to do with the gaming industry. It's also about the support and environment which Mac does not have.
7. Im talking about now. Geforce Now costs $5 or $10 less base on the region you live with ray tracing. Also, my network is only 100 Mbps for each. You failed to prove it once again.
8. Tell me, who buys Mac for gaming? None.

 

[mr_roboto]

Metal is a joke you know that?

L O L

Let's see what a Unity developer who did some of the work to port it to Metal thinks about it, instead of believing some random troll:

Random Thoughts on New Explicit Graphics APIs · Aras' website

aras-p.info

Short version: he likes Metal quite a bit.

(I can't find it at the moment, but I remember reading that Metal is the result of Apple scooping up a bunch of the AMD Mantle team and giving them Apple-level resources to bring that style of API to the Mac. And also spending a bunch on building really good tooling around it, so it's very easy for application authors to find where the performance bottlenecks are. This Unity programmer's blog post isn't the only time I've seen a professional in the industry praise Metal.)

 

[sosumilee]

L O L

Let's see what a Unity developer who did some of the work to port it to Metal thinks about it, instead of believing some random troll:

Random Thoughts on New Explicit Graphics APIs · Aras' website

aras-p.info

Short version: he likes Metal quite a bit.

(I can't find it at the moment, but I remember reading that Metal is the result of Apple scooping up a bunch of the AMD Mantle team and giving them Apple-level resources to bring that style of API to the Mac. And also spending a bunch on building really good tooling around it, so it's very easy for application authors to find where the performance bottlenecks are. This Unity programmer's blog post isn't the only time I've seen a professional in the industry praise Metal.)

Can you tell me any AAA games made out of Metal from the beginning just for Mac? Also, that article is 5 years old! And now, how many games are available in Mac with Metal API especially with AAA level? You see, after 5 years, there isn't any or many AAA games especially just for Mac. Even they do, they dont release it right away for Mac. I keep telling facts here.

People failed to prove anything after all.

 

[Homy]

Where is Metro? Aliens Isolation? God of War? Clearly, most popular games aren't even supported.

You should at least strike those three off your list and read a bit more about Mac games. If you're referring to Metro 2033 Redux and Last Light Redux both have been ported to Mac since 2015. If you're talking about Exodus here it is, under development for Mac and on Steam since July. Alien Isolation was also ported in 2015. As for God of War it's a PS4 exclusive game, not even on Windows (just recently rumored to be in development for Windows).

 

[sosumilee]

You should at least strike those three off your list and read a bit more about Mac games. If you're referring to Metro 2033 Redux and Last light Redux both have been ported to Mac since 2015. If you're talking about Exodus here it is, under development for Mac and on Steam since July. Alien Isolation was also ported in 2015. As for God of War it's a PS4 exclusive game, not even on Windows (just recently rumored to be in development for Windows).

Didnt know about Alien Isolation but that does not change my point.

 

[leman]

Can you tell me any AAA games made out of Metal from the beginning just for Mac?

To add some games from my genre to the list: recent Total War titles (Warhammer, Three Kingdoms, Troy), Larian games (Divinity Series, Baldur's Gates 3), Civilization VI, upcoming Humankind from Amplitude...

Why you we so keen on AAA games anyway? Popular engines such as Unity and Unreal support Metal, so pretty much every recent indie game released for macOS runs on Metal.

By the way, 3Dmark (developer of industry standard gaming benchmarks) just released a brand new cross-platform benchmark. Guess what API it uses on Apple platforms.

It's not just about ray tracing but it also about technology. MS had been investing tons of money for that while Apple did not.

You keep talking about "technology", but what does it even mean? Apple even makes it's own GPUs. What's more "technology" than this?