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No they're not, but there's no way anyone can convince me that Apple is happy with the sales cratering like they have for 5+ years
iPad sales hit a new 5-year low this past quarter – BGR
Apple's iPad business is experiencing major shrinkage

No amount of spin can change that fact, and given what apple has tried lately, also shows they're looking to find ways to strike a chord with consumers. The iPad Pro is just that answer, they saw how the Surface Pro was capturing the eye of the media and so they rolled out a 12.9" iPad with a stylus and a keyboard cover like the SP.

I'm not down on Apple trying different things, but the level of shrinking sales over such an extended time frame is not a matter of re-adjusting to a different sales level but rather focusing on why people are choosing not buy the iPad.
You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't engage in spin. :)

You said that they "haven't figured out". THAT is what I disagree with. They KNOW why sales are dropping. They KNOW what they need to do to turn the tide in sales. They are are DELIBERATELY not doing what they KNOW they need to do.

They are grudgingly taking baby steps to see what affect it has on sales. They want to do the least possible (not because they're lazy, but) because they want to preserve their macbook sales.

I'm convinced that the reason why they called the 12.9 iPad, "Pro" instead of "Plus" was to stem the tide of rumors and demand for a true "Pro" version of the iPad on par with the Surface. By calling it "Pro" it pretty much overnight stopped any serious rumors and demand for a true 2-in-1 device.

They were hoping that the Pencil and Smart Keyboard would be enough. It wasn't. They're hoping that iOS 11 with the dock, Files app, and multitasking will be enough. It won't. But that's ok, because even with each step they take, they're making money. A lot of money.
 
You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't engage in spin. :)
Spin was probably poor choice of words :)

They are grudgingly taking baby steps to see what affect it has on sales.
Agreed, the 10.5 IPP is evidence of that, and I think you posted in another thread that the 10.5 IPP should have been what the first 9.7 iPad Pro was and I'm in agreement with you.

hey're making money. A lot of money.
Yes, and I'm not minimizing that at all, but when executives see a downward trend of sales and current sales are its lowest point 5 years, it tends to illicit stronger feelings/responses then a thought of re-adjusting the idea of lower sales.

I do think Apple is on the right track, and maybe in someways has out paced the consumer, i.e., it does more then what they need and so the consumer may not have caught up and felt the need to buy a new machine. That was me up until the 10.5 was released. I was very happy with my 2nd gen mini.
 
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No they're not, but there's no way anyone can convince me that Apple is happy with the sales cratering like they have for 5+ years
iPad sales hit a new 5-year low this past quarter – BGR
Apple's iPad business is experiencing major shrinkage

No amount of spin can change that fact, and given what apple has tried lately, also shows they're looking to find ways to strike a chord with consumers. The iPad Pro is just that answer, they saw how the Surface Pro was capturing the eye of the media and so they rolled out a 12.9" iPad with a stylus and a keyboard cover like the SP.

I'm not down on Apple trying different things, but the level of shrinking sales over such an extended time frame is not a matter of re-adjusting to a different sales level but rather focusing on why people are choosing not buy the iPad.
Wasn't that mainly caused by iPad Mini sales being cannibalized by larger iPhones.
 
Pretty much. As I'm reading how 9.7 Pro owners are "upgrading" to the 10.5, or gen 1 12.9 owners upgrading to the 2nd gen, it really does seem like "performance" is the shiny bauble Apple uses to distract people. But that's ok. For some, buttery smooth operation is as important to them, as functionality is to others.

As I continue to try to push the limits of what I do on my 12.9 Pro, it still handles the tasks with ease.

The bottleneck is not performance... but function. (I think overall, 12.9 Pro owners have seen this more than others) That is going to be made painfully obvious once iOS 11 drops and the enhancements are going to highlight the fact that apps still lag in function.

I did upgrade. Performance hasn’t even come to mind.
I wanted the slightly bigger keyboard and thought about putting it on my 9.7. Would have been a cheap upgrade to just get the “full” keyboard (its about 95%, but feels full enough), the new 10.5 keyboard is just a few millimetres bigger on each side, but it saves some serious money. I also liked the promotion/120hz. And the 512Gb, but all of the points is not enough to get me running to the store and spend a 1500 of my hard earned money.

What changed, was that my daughters iPad 1 (original) battery demised in a few days to an unworkable 15 minutes right of the charger. So I gave my Pro 9.7 to my father, his Air 1 to my daughter and got the 10.5 for myself.
I have to say I like the 10.5 a lot. It’s an incremental improvement on several sides, but all in all it really feels a lot better. No, not better, perhaps more matured.

But no way I’m going to change my 12.9 for a 2nd Gen 12.9, it would be madness, I have the feeling/idea that my 12.9 isn’t taxed to even a quarter of it’s possibilities.
 
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Me either, no way was I spending $799 on the new 12.9 when I have the first gen after having a go with the new one.

I got $150 for my Mini 2, I plucked it down on the 10.5. I know I could have put the $150 towards the new 12.9 but I saved money going with the 10.5 that started at $649 instead of $799.
 
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The plus came out in 2015, the sliding sales of the iPad predate the release of that phone.

The iPhone 6 Plus launched in Sept 2014. Apple sold 10 million iPhone 6 devices during the first weekend. Most reports suggest the Plus represented 30-40% of iPhone 6 sales.

Even before the Plus came out, Samsung had been selling the Galaxy Note series since 2011. These phablets almost certainly had an effect on iPad sales.
 
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I do think Apple is on the right track, and maybe in someways has out paced the consumer, i.e., it does more then what they need and so the consumer may not have caught up and felt the need to buy a new machine. That was me up until the 10.5 was released. I was very happy with my 2nd gen mini.

It’s a hard thing.
On one hand Apple might outpace many customers price wise, power-wise, feature-wise.
On the other hand, this forum is filled with people that think the Pro-moniker isn’t earned for those iPads because they lack feature X, hardware Y or software capability Z.

Way I see it: if the Pro isn’t your pricepoint and/or has to many features, there is a really nice priced iPad 2017.
If the iPad Pro has functions that you want/long for/need/can’t live without, the price might be less of a problem.

For me the IPad Pro series is brilliant. The 10.5 can go anywhere without the need to adjust to the keyboard (that was tHe reason I brought along the 12.9 very often, because typing on the 9.7 Smart Keyboard gave so many errors and typo’s).
It’s lightweight, easy to store in any bag, sturdy enough and it still has all the features I want. Hell, it even got twice as much space as my 256Gb iPad Pro 12.9. It’s a real travel/EDC machine.

The 12.9 is for desk duty (odd to say that of an iPad, but its for mail general typing, but also annotating A4 PDF’s and check&control work of juniors with the pencil). but also reading of non-pocket-format books for my study.
And when I expect lots of work I also bring along the 12.9 when I’m at a client.

nice advantage of giving your client you iPad: he can see what I’m annotating in PDF expert. Be it with a little bit delay, but it can be handy. If he can read my writing :D
 
I think everyone is missing the point here. Hardware capabilities, iOS updates, iPad vs. Surface arguments, all of these are at best tangential to the real problem that holds back the iPad. Namely, the App Store economy.

It's great for users that Affinity Photo is available now, along with Procreate and whatnot. But what developers see are apps that cost at most $50 replacing ones that used to cost $400. And those are the cream of the crop pro apps. Anything else and you still run into users who balk at spending even a solitary dollar on an app. When developers see this they think to themselves "Well crap, how am I going to make a living on an app that costs $1 when my potential market is fairly narrow?"

Without "Pro" apps, the iPad as a pro device will never take off. And Pro apps won't come to the iPad in force until attitudes about app pricing change.
 
The iPhone 6 Plus launched in Sept 2014. Apple sold 10 million iPhone 6 devices during the first weekend. Most reports suggest the Plus represented 30-40% of iPhone 6 sales.

Even before the Plus came out, Samsung had been selling the Galaxy Note series since 2011. These phablets almost certainly had an effect on iPad sales.
From everything I've read, and I tend to believe this, there's even more of a story here--the iPad mini is accounting for most of the loss in sales. Apple lumps all iPad sales each quarter into one big number. They might give some clues as to the mix of models, but they never say exactly which is selling in what numbers.

There are a lot of signs pointing to the probability that the 9.7" and 12.9" models (too early to know about the 10.5" yet) have been steady or slightly increasing lately, while the iPad mini sales decline is about to hit bottom. This is why most analysts (not the click bait ones, but the ones who actually do research on the supply chain and try to derive numbers as best they can from what little information they are given) think there is going to be an uptick sooner rather than later. We probably won't return to explosive growth like when the device first came out, but the trend could possibly be on the rise again soon.

Take from that what you will. Nothing is a sure thing, and analysts are just guessing like the rest of us, but there are some I trust. Even if the decline just tapers off soon and iPad remain steady, they're still selling twice as well as Macs are per quarter. That's nothing to sneeze at.
 
A lot of very interesting comments and ideas in this thread. Thought I'd share my opinion which counts for very little :)

Sorry it's long.

They are grudgingly taking baby steps to see what affect it has on sales. They want to do the least possible (not because they're lazy, but) because they want to preserve their macbook sales.

I'm convinced that the reason why they called the 12.9 iPad, "Pro" instead of "Plus" was to stem the tide of rumors and demand for a true "Pro" version of the iPad on par with the Surface. By calling it "Pro" it pretty much overnight stopped any serious rumors and demand for a true 2-in-1 device.

They were hoping that the Pencil and Smart Keyboard would be enough. It wasn't. They're hoping that iOS 11 with the dock, Files app, and multitasking will be enough. It won't. But that's ok, because even with each step they take, they're making money. A lot of money.

I agree to an extent, but perhaps not for the same reasons. I don't think even Apple had a full grasp on the iPad's purpose when they introduced it. It was to serve as the "in between" from phone to computer. Lets face it, although there was a mention of Apple's very niche iWork suite (and a very gimped on at that) productivity was not the main focus. It was music and videos and tons of internet. The marketing remained so for years as sale blew up because it was fresh and new. It was futuristic to use "a piece of glass."

Gradually though users began to to grow accustom to larger phones and on the go devices. Phones and laptops handled the media consumption and the iPad segment began to get squeezed out. Also the high cost of the device eventually caught up with it.

Sure, there were many stories of individuals who created (sometimes elaborate) workarounds to make it a productivity device, but that's not what it was intended for. Once Apple realized this and saw the declining sales they needed a new marketing angle. People just weren't going to pay $500+ dollars to a media device. This is why the new "general media use" iPad starts at $379. Apple is trying to reach the old media audience and entice them with a device better than their phones and still cheap. Then Apple chased the new market with the iPad Pro. You say "they are grudgingly taking baby steps." I want to argue this, but I'm not sure I can. Split view was a given for the Pro, but why wait so long for the iOS 11 features. Yes, they're nice, but not revolutionary. I do agree that they were hoping the new accessories and split view would be mostly enough, but realized they had to push forward.

Apple really only has themselves to blame. They marketed the iPad for so long as one type of device and now trying to shoehorn it into another category that I don't think it was ever intended to be in. I think this relates to the App Store problem below.


Main Point:
I disagree that this shift is mostly from a readjustment - though I think that's part of it. I think Apple is just retroactively responding to the market. I also disagree a bit with the thinking that Apple knows and is okay with (in a sense) the declining sales. I think Apple wants to continue to sell more and more. Also, if Apple is to be believe when they say that iPad is future of computing then they'll want to sell that much more to make sure the next generation is brought up on the iPad. You can change the computing world over night, it has to be gradual.

I think Apple is responding to waning iPad interest by trying to push it into a new category. I agree that they're holding back, but I don't think it's because they don't know what to do or even because they don't want to undercut Mac sales (they do get higher margins, but iPad's are approaching Mac-pricing and they've shown they're not afraid to undercut their own products with new ones), I think the iPad is still haunted by the old method of thinking: a dead simple device where the user interacts solely with content. Apple is afraid to mess with the underlying foundation of iPad. It almost necessities an iPad Pro-OS where Apple can keep the old ideals on the lower end media devices and embrace a new dynamic on the "Pros," but that would be confusing and cause fragmentation. They are going through growing pains. However, I do think they are trying to do as little as possible to mess with the formula, but not for MacBook sales, but to preserve what is *iPad* in their eyes.

_______________

Yes, and I'm not minimizing that at all, but when executives see a downward trend of sales and current sales are its lowest point 5 years, it tends to illicit stronger feelings/responses then a thought of re-adjusting the idea of lower sales.

I do think Apple is on the right track, and maybe in someways has out paced the consumer, i.e., it does more then what they need and so the consumer may not have caught up and felt the need to buy a new machine. That was me up until the 10.5 was released. I was very happy with my 2nd gen mini.

I agree with you. I don't think Apple wants to see anything other than increases. I also think the entire Pro focus is a retroactive response to push the iPad into a new market. Had the media-focused consumption iPad that Steve sold in 2010 continued selling in record numbers through 2016, I don't think there would be an iPad Pro.

__________________

I think everyone is missing the point here. Hardware capabilities, iOS updates, iPad vs. Surface arguments, all of these are at best tangential to the real problem that holds back the iPad. Namely, the App Store economy.

I think this is one of the biggest issues. Why do people buy certain game consoles or Macs vs PCs? It's the software - the games available, the special applications and tools. Mac's have had amazing tools and some really good exclusive apps. And some apps, like adobe, are cross-platform so users can choose the OS they like the best. If a Mac could only run Apple's current selection of apps I think it would have all but died. The same goes for iPad. Apple marketed this device as a mobile consumption app. They aligned it more closely with the iPhone than the Mac so it got the mobile treatment. It was a race to the bottom with flashy purchases.

Now Apple is trying to push he iPad toward the Mac-line but it can't shake off the repercussions of the past. The App Store still reflect the old mobile world of iPhone apps. There are amazing applications, but when you see a see of FREE or $0.99 apps that $9.99, $19.99, or God-forbit $49.99 app will seem horrendous. Sure, some "pro" users like are on this forum will gladly pay it, but a few hundred $20-$30 purchases (even a few thousand) cannot run a company.

Developers also share some blame. Many big-name apps were brought to iPad at a time where iOS an the hardware just couldn't run them so they released stripped down mobile apps. Developers need to show a full "no shortcuts" application with full functionality if they want users to pay $50, $100, or even $400. I would never pay $400 or even $100 for an iPad app because they always seem to have gimped functionality. If that perception and fact can change, who knows.
 
I am wondering if iOS 11 will bring Microsoft Surface Pro lovers back?

I'm here! :)
[doublepost=1498091775][/doublepost]
No.
Yes.
No.
No.

* better display
* better battery life
* better performance
* more affordable

Well I have a SP4 now if we're talking about the M3 then those answer are different.

Yes at least to me things look better on the iPad. I'm not talking specs.
Yes
Yes (the M3 kinda sucks...I only bought it because I got a great deal)
No
 
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I'm so so excited about the direction of the iPad too! Even if it's not quite there yet.. I feel it's on it's way there and personally that's what matters to me. Others agree, others don't. That's cool.

I think dropping 32-bit apps might allow for more APIs and tools for developers to bring desktop class apps. Not even just porting them, but being able to really take advantage of the iPad form factor and experience too. Topping what they can do on Mac and Windows. Sure, it sounds crazy. But we could be witnessing a huge shift in the mass consumer computing market.

Some people do prefer Windows.. personally, the Surface and it's great hardware and specs is the least I'd offer to anyone bearing that experience. It doesn't make tolerating the OS worth while to me, but I do admire the Surface and it's influence as 'stiff competition' for Apple. Maybe it prompted the growing up of iOS and if it did, I'm more grateful for it.

I think Apple are aware the falling sales are probably because, well, for example, I'm typing on a 3 year old iPad Air 2. I have no need to buy a new Pro (yet). But if they impress me enough I'll be on a Pro by the end of the year.

Exciting times I think
 
Developers also share some blame. Many big-name apps were brought to iPad at a time where iOS an the hardware just couldn't run them so they released stripped down mobile apps. Developers need to show a full "no shortcuts" application with full functionality if they want users to pay $50, $100, or even $400. I would never pay $400 or even $100 for an iPad app because they always seem to have gimped functionality. If that perception and fact can change, who knows.
I agree with just about everything you said, but I think developers need to be convinced that putting work into full-featured apps will eventually pay off. Cuba Gooding Jr. comes to mind here "Show me the money." It's a bit cliché, but there really is a chicken and the egg problem here.

If you're a glass half full type of person, you see Affinity Photo as evidence that the market will find an equilibrium eventually. But Apple needs to lead here. The sign I would be looking for that Apple thinks the iPad can truly be a pro device would be iOS versions of their pro apps, Final Cut, Logic, etc, with pro prices. THAT would convince other developers that Apple is taking things seriously and perhaps they should too.
 
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I agree with just about everything you said, but I think developers need to be convinced that putting work into full-featured apps will eventually pay off. Cuba Gooding Jr. comes to mind here "Show me the money." It's a bit cliché, but there really is a chicken and the egg problem here.

If you're a glass half full type of person, you see Affinity Photo as evidence that the market will find an equilibrium eventually. But Apple needs to lead here. The sign I would be looking for that Apple thinks the iPad can truly be a pro device would be iOS versions of their pro apps, Final Cut, Logic, etc, with pro prices. THAT would convince other developers that Apple is taking things seriously and perhaps they should too.

It's really a bad spiral. Users are afraid to spend much money on apps since they are usually such low power variance of the desktop counterparts, but developers are hesitant to spend the time to create quality desktop apps because consumers are hesitant to pay for them.

Apple does need to leave here to demonstrate
 
I just hope that Apple can keep up the momentum. I don't want to have to wait till iOS 13 to get more iPad features.
I think they have fully committed with iOS 11 now, will iOS 12 be huge again, no but I definitely expect a good 1-3 minutes on iPad features they tweaked or added, sorta filling in gaps at this point, I dont really expect any UI type things at this point since the whole multitasking and drag and drop is coming with iOS 11. I'd expect things like, Safari improvements, ability to use external USB to import files into Files app, just little things like that. Oh but when is DUAL AUDIO STREAM support coming for podcastors.
 
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I think they have fully committed with iOS 11 now, will iOS 12 be huge again, no but I definitely expect a good 1-3 minutes on iPad features they tweaked or added, sorta filling in gaps at this point, I dont really expect any UI type things at this point since the whole multitasking and drag and drop is coming with iOS 11. I'd expect things like, Safari improvements, ability to use external USB to import files into Files app, just little things like that. Oh but when is DUAL AUDIO STREAM support coming for podcastors.
Dual audio streams is the last thing left on my list of needed features. I cohost a double ended podcast, so I have to use my iPhone to record the conversation while I record my local audio on the iPad. It's annoying.
 
Dual audio streams is the last thing left on my list of needed features. I cohost a double ended podcast, so I have to use my iPhone to record the conversation while I record my local audio on the iPad. It's annoying.
Was really hoping they'd low key throw it in to iOS 11 but unfortunately they have not
 
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This fall with iOS 11 we are going to see both iOS and apps become more Mac like then they've been in the past. I couldnt be more excited for apps releasing on the AppStore, bewteeen Affinity Photo and Designer, to a new vector graphics app "Vectornator Pro". These are probably the first of many apps releasing with the full feature set of their Mac and Windows siblings and in iOS 11 it's only going to improve. These developers have already stated they have huge things planned for iOS 11 this fall. I couldn't be more excited for the future of iPad Pro and it's endless possibilities. :apple:

From what you said, I don't understand why you didn't just go out and buy an MB ages ago and occasionally glance at the state of the ipad.
 
I just hope that Apple can keep up the momentum. I don't want to have to wait till iOS 13 to get more iPad features.
I believe it's called building the anticipation. ;)

It's nice to have the iPad ignored for 18 months and then be on the edge of your seat with your intestines clenched when Craig walks on stage. :p
 
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