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bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
"The iPad will never be a Mac" I agree with in principle though there is a lot of grey area in the points you list above given then hardware of current iPads and the iPadOS support for keyboards and pointers. Apple certainly isn't helping matters by making an iPad Pro with a Magic Keyboard look nearly identical to a Mac, down to the finishes and the fact that you can use an iPad without hardly ever touching the screen.

What I don't agree with it people using the "it isn't a Mac" as a reason to forgive the painfully slow pace of software improvements in iPadOS. Any feature that iPadOS can't do the automatic answer is "you should have gotten a Mac" even if the request is nowhere near "power user" territory.

For example:

Wanting to watch a YouTube video while listening to Spotify is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to create a smart playlist in Music app is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to buy a song in lossless format and add to my music library is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to keep an iCloud Drive file always downloaded to my iPad is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to download a file from a website link (download linked file as) with a different name is something iPadOS should do
 

Mackan

macrumors 65816
Sep 16, 2007
1,443
113
An iPad could offer to switch between iPadOS and MacOS. If booting MacOS, one can hook up external display, keyboard and mouse. No need to offer touch input for MacOS. In that sense, it could act as a Mac without any much compromise. When taking iPad on the go, switch to iPadOS. Compare to Samsung Dex.

The above I wrote is rather logical, it's just Apple preventing it because they want to sell you two devices.
 

kard32

macrumors member
Dec 3, 2020
38
54
How does any of this apply to having a gimped Safari, for example?

It applies because of the design and purpose of the iPad, just like the iPhone. They are designed to be mobile and effectively only used on battery power. Their thermal envelopes do not support the power throughput needed for MacOS and its applications so their processors are downscaled and throttled. In macOS, you can open 50 tabs in Safari, and then run a project export out of Logic while at the same time edit a video in Final Cut Pro and have music downloading to iTunes and sending Emails and other things, all at once.

If iOS didn't work the way it did by freezing most applications when you are not actively using them and shutting down a host of background processes your battery life on an iPhone or iPad would be as short as a handful of minutes, and perhaps even seconds.

I have a new M3 15" MacBook Air and it's a great machine. But can it keep up to my 16" M class MacBook Pro in any sustained task? No. Even as powerful as the MacBook Air is, it throttles because it does not have the thermals to support such high sustained output. The MacBook Pro has the larger thermals and active cooling with fans. And then there's the Mac Studio and Mac Pro that blow the doors off of a MacBook Pro.
That might’ve been relevant for iOS — but definitely less so for 16GB M4 iPads.
 

Kahnforever

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 20, 2024
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"The iPad will never be a Mac" I agree with in principle though there is a lot of grey area in the points you list above given then hardware of current iPads and the iPadOS support for keyboards and pointers. Apple certainly isn't helping matters by making an iPad Pro with a Magic Keyboard look nearly identical to a Mac, down to the finishes and the fact that you can use an iPad without hardly ever touching the screen.

What I don't agree with it people using the "it isn't a Mac" as a reason to forgive the painfully slow pace of software improvements in iPadOS. Any feature that iPadOS can't do the automatic answer is "you should have gotten a Mac" even if the request is nowhere near "power user" territory.

For example:

Wanting to watch a YouTube video while listening to Spotify is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to create a smart playlist in Music app is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to buy a song in lossless format and add to my music library is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to keep an iCloud Drive file always downloaded to my iPad is something iPadOS should do
Wanting to download a file from a website link (download linked file as) with a different name is something iPadOS should do
I agree with you to a certain extent. But also, people list these kinds of features and at some point iPadOS just becomes MacOS and it can’t because MacOS is too much for these mobile devices. It will drain their batteries like a vampire and they’ll overheat and throttle you to a full stop.
 

Kahnforever

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 20, 2024
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That might’ve been relevant for iOS — but definitely less so for 16GB M4 iPads.
It’s largely irrelevant what the CPU and RAM are. It is designed as a tablet. There is no escaping that. That means it’s as thin as it possibly can be. The motherboard and internals are sandwiched against the screen so no chance of much passive cooling away from the screen which itself heats up. No fans. Etc. It’s thermal cooling ability is severely hamstrung and always will be.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
It’s largely irrelevant what the CPU and RAM are. It is designed as a tablet. There is no escaping that. That means it’s as thin as it possibly can be. The motherboard and internals are sandwiched against the screen so no chance of much passive cooling away from the screen which itself heats up. No fans. Etc. It’s thermal cooling ability is severely hamstrung and always will be.
We see this as well even with the Microsoft Surface Pro. They spent their entire presentation comparing it to the MacBook Air, not the iPad Pro. They treat it as a notebook that can occasionally replace a tablet. It even has fans.

Apple treats the iPad as a separate product category. It's not trying to be a Mac.
 
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Kahnforever

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 20, 2024
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We see this as well even with the Microsoft Surface Pro. They spent their entire presentation comparing it to the MacBook Air, not the iPad Pro. They treat it as a notebook that can occasionally replace a tablet. It even has fans.

Apple treats the iPad as a separate product category. It's not trying to be a Mac.
This.
 

bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
I agree with you to a certain extent. But also, people list these kinds of features and at some point iPadOS just becomes MacOS and it can’t because MacOS is too much for these mobile devices. It will drain their batteries like a vampire and they’ll overheat and throttle you to a full stop.
These are very simple, low processing overhead features that I listed and would not turn iPadOS into MacOS nor overheat the device. Yes, there are people advocating for full multitasking of background tasks that would heat up the devices to a much larger extent but MacBook Airs are fanless and don't suffer from widespread overheating where people are returning them. That aside, I am not advocating for running MacOS on an iPad - just simply making iPadOS better. The gap between hardware and software on these devices is huge.
 
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Rafterman

Contributor
Apr 23, 2010
7,267
8,809
These are very simple, low processing overhead features that I listed and would not turn iPadOS into MacOS nor overheat the device. Yes, there are people advocating for full multitasking of background tasks that would heat up the devices to a much larger extent but MacBook Airs are fanless and don't suffer from widespread overheating where people are returning them. That aside, I am not advocating for running MacOS on an iPad - just simply making iPadOS better. The gap between hardware and software on these devices is huge.

I make this argument all the time: if you keep making iPadOS more like MacOS (aka, "better") then you might as well use MacOS.
 

Kahnforever

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 20, 2024
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Still holds true ( man I miss Steve Jobs)
And that's why I said right in the beginning of this thread about the truck analogy from Jobs. The Mac is the truck, and it will always be around to a certain extent to do the heavy lifting. The iPads and iPhones are the cars.
 
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bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
I make this argument all the time: if you keep making iPadOS more like MacOS (aka, "better") then you might as well use MacOS.
So you are saying that iPadOS should never get new features or capabilities? There are many limitations it has to even being a great tablet OS. Being able to watch a youtube video while listening to spotify is not a feature that should be desktop only. being able to create a smart playlist is not a feature that should desktop only.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,642
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I’ve owned many iPads over the years, starting with the first one when it launched in 2010. Steve Jobs’ keynote introducing the iPad was a masterclass in product vision, clearly articulating why the iPad existed: it has to excel at tasks over and above the Mac or iPhone, like web browsing and reading books. Jobs also spoke of the need for trucks... even though mobile devices like the iPhone and iPad were appealing, he talked about the need for what he effectively was referring to as the Mac, the equivalent of a truck vs. more efficient cars like the iPhone and iPad.

Over the years, there’s been endless debate about whether the iPad should become more like a Mac with a Mac-like OS or if the Mac should adopt touchscreen capabilities like an iPad. The iPad will never be a Mac, and the Mac will never be an iPad. Each device is designed for a distinct purpose, and these design philosophies are fundamentally different for several reasons:

  1. Form Factor and Screen Size: The iPad’s smaller screen is a consequence of its tablet form factor, meant to be handheld. This inherently limits its productivity compared to larger laptop or desktop screens that can display more information simultaneously.
  2. Input Methods: The iPad is designed around multi-touch input directly on the screen, which is intuitive for certain tasks but lacks the precision of a mouse and keyboard setup: mouse arrows are precise to 1 pixel. Professional tasks often require this level of precision, which is why the Mac’s keyboard and trackpad, with their pixel-level accuracy, remain superior for those needs.
  3. Performance Constraints: The iPad’s CPU and GPU capabilities are constrained by its design as a fanless, battery-operated device. This results in a limited thermal envelope, preventing sustained high performance. In contrast, Macs, especially when plugged in, can utilize more power and better cooling systems, making them capable of handling more demanding professional applications over extended periods. For tasks requiring consistent, high-level performance, such as video editing or software development, the Mac’s design advantages are clear where the iPad will suffer more thermal throttling.
  4. External Display Support: The iPad lacks the ability to drive multiple high-resolution monitors, a feature crucial for many professional workflows. Macs, particularly the MacBook Pro and desktop models, excel in this area, providing significant productivity gains through extensive multi-monitor support. This capability is essential for tasks such as coding, graphic design, and financial trading, where multiple displays enhance efficiency and workflow management.
  5. Mac’s Trackpad vs. Touchscreen: The Mac already incorporates multi-touch through its trackpad, which is more ergonomic and efficient for desktop use than a touchscreen. It's as if people forget about this. Lifting your arms to touch a screen repeatedly is impractical and slower compared to using a trackpad. Additionally, macOS is optimized for precise input, not the broad gestures suited for touchscreens. The mixed success of Windows 8, which attempted to bridge touch and mouse inputs, underscores the challenges of such an approach. Even Steven Sinofsky, the former President of Windows, has acknowledged that this convergence doesn’t work well.
  6. Software Ecosystem and User Experience: The software ecosystems for iPadOS and macOS are tailored to their respective hardware. iPadOS is optimized for touch interactions and mobile apps, excelling in areas like media consumption and lightweight productivity tasks. In contrast, macOS supports a vast array of professional software, offering a desktop-class experience for complex tasks. Attempts to merge these ecosystems risk diluting the strengths of each platform, leading to a compromised user experience.
  7. Ergonomics and Usability: The iPad’s design prioritizes portability and ease of use for casual and on-the-go tasks. It is perfect for scenarios where holding the device in hand or using it in various orientations is beneficial. The Mac, designed for desk use, focuses on ergonomics suitable for prolonged use with peripherals like external keyboards and mice, providing a more comfortable experience for extended work sessions.
In summary, the iPad and Mac are designed for different use cases, and their respective strengths highlight why each device remains distinct. The iPad excels as a portable, touch-based device for casual use and specific professional scenarios, while the Mac remains unparalleled in environments requiring sustained performance, precise input, and extensive multitasking capabilities.

With AI, I think the iPad will become even more appealing to more people, as AI has the power to automate a lot of what we do, even in a professional setting, making manual input less needed. But regardless, we will still need the "trucks", as Jobs said, so Macs aren't going anywhere anytime soon. But a truck is not a car, it isn't trying to be, and it will never be.
A 13" iPad pro with Magic Keyboard that would be allowed to dual boot MacOS could totally replace a fanless MacBook air when needed. None of these arguments hold. Saying that the iPad cannot replace a MacBook Pro or Studio is like saying a MacBook air could not replace a MacBook pro/studio.
Battery is 20% smaller than a MacBook air, so what? 20% less battery life on MacOS, fine with that.
I am sure many people would be happy with a Mac Studio or even a MacBook pro at home and a dual boot iPad pro on the go.
If this option does not exist it's just because it's not profitable for Apple.
 

bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
A 13" iPad pro with Magic Keyboard that would be allowed to dual boot MacOS could totally replace a fanless MacBook air when needed. None of these arguments hold. Saying that the iPad cannot replace a MacBook Pro or Studio is like saying a MacBook air could not replace a MacBook pro/studio.
Battery is 20% smaller than a MacBook air, so what? 20% less battery life on MacOS, fine with that.
I am sure many people would be happy with a Mac Studio or even a MacBook pro at home and a dual boot iPad pro on the go.
If this option does not exist it's just because it's not profitable for Apple.
For me this is the holy grail of only having 1 device to lug around. I can do 85% of what I need on an iPad, for the 15% i would gladly accept a trade off like having to boot into a different OS or start a VM if it means i shed a couple pounds in my bag. And the 15% i need to do on a Mac is not complicated or heavy processing.

I believe the reason that Apple doesn’t allow dual boot or virtualization is a combination of:

1. They want you to have both a Mac and an iPad for sales reasons
2. They think dual boot or virtualization is not the purest user experience (EVEN if the user is more than willing to live with it)

I get and accept that Apple will never put MacOS on an iPad for lots of reasons but they have no good reason to disable the M chip hypervisor and disallow virtualization apps on the app store other than marketing and control.
 

Digitalguy

macrumors 601
Apr 15, 2019
4,642
4,469
For me this is the holy grail of only having 1 device to lug around. I can do 85% of what I need on an iPad, for the 15% i would gladly accept a trade off like having to boot into a different OS or start a VM if it means i shed a couple pounds in my bag. And the 15% i need to do on a Mac is not complicated or heavy processing.

I believe the reason that Apple doesn’t allow dual boot or virtualization is a combination of:

1. They want you to have both a Mac and an iPad for sales reasons
2. They think dual boot or virtualization is not the purest user experience (EVEN if the user is more than willing to live with it)

I get and accept that Apple will never put MacOS on an iPad for lots of reasons but they have no good reason to disable the M chip hypervisor and disallow virtualization apps on the app store other than marketing and control.
Honestly I believe reason number 1 is the only real reason, and also the reason why they disabled hypervisor in iPadOS 16...
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,960
5,130
Texas
Being able to watch a youtube video while listening to spotify is not a feature that should be desktop only.
I think this feature is coming at WWDC, supposedly it was coming last year… but didn‘t make the cut.

Locked behind Stage Manager to avoid complication… because it could possibly confuse users when they expect something to pause in the background.

being able to create a smart playlist is not a feature that should desktop only.
This hasn’t been on my list of features that should be on iPadOS… tbh, I don’t think I ever used it on the desktop.
 

bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
I think this feature is coming at WWDC, supposedly it was coming last year… but didn‘t make the cut.

Locked behind Stage Manager to avoid complication… because it could possibly confuse users when they expect something to pause in the background.


This hasn’t been on my list of features that should be on iPadOS… tbh, I don’t think I ever used it on the desktop.
Add a toggle setting under Settings-->Sound & Haptics for "Allow concurrent audio sources", have it off by default so the basic iPad user is undisturbed. It doesn't need to be confusing or complicated.
 

bscheffel

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2008
366
681
And that's why I said right in the beginning of this thread about the truck analogy from Jobs. The Mac is the truck, and it will always be around to a certain extent to do the heavy lifting. The iPads and iPhones are the cars.
Actually if listen to the video his analogy sheds a lot of light on the current situation and reinforces the idea that iPad is not where it should be.

He starts by saying that in the beginning all vehicles were trucks (Macs) then cars were introduced (iPads). Then he says that the ratio of Cars to Trucks is 25 cars for every Truck. By this analogy, iPads should outsell Macs 25 to 1. Right now iPads outsell Macs by 3 to 1.

Sticking to his analogy we need bigger and better cars (SUVs/Minivans) so that we render Trucks mute except for the most demanding workloads.

Instead of Jobs vision of mostly cars on the road and a few trucks - Apple now has decided that every family should have to buy both a Truck and a Car.
 

pin87a

macrumors member
Apr 9, 2011
39
117
More isn't better. Better is better.

iPadOS needs to be better. Telling people to "just use MacOS" won't make iPadOS better. And if Apple added it as an option on the iPad it would be as though Apple was also telling people to "just use MacOS." It's a cop out either way.

Adobe isn't going to make a better tablet version of Photoshop if they can just tell people to "switch to MacOS Mode." Microsoft won't make a better tablet version of Office if they can cheap out and just tell people to use the old stuff.

MacOS isn't even the be-all and end-all of personal computing. At the moment it's also a bit lost as to what it wants to be. In my opinion, we should be demanding better from Apple, not more options to choose from. I wouldn't accept a clunky dual boot (or vm or whatever) as an improvement for anything. It's a lazy compromise.
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,960
5,130
Texas
Add a toggle setting under Settings-->Sound & Haptics for "Allow concurrent audio sources", have it off by default so the basic iPad user is undisturbed. It doesn't need to be confusing or complicated.
I like that, but I don’t envision Apple having this feature for basic iPad users to use. It’s one of those features that helps to separate it from the pack. There’s always those snide remarks… “what can a basic iPad do that the iPad Pro cannot,” this will help in these kind of scenarios.

Now they can add a Control Center toggle as you are suggesting… but I don’t think it will be available on the base iPad.
 

Kahnforever

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 20, 2024
218
260
A 13" iPad pro with Magic Keyboard that would be allowed to dual boot MacOS could totally replace a fanless MacBook air when needed. None of these arguments hold. Saying that the iPad cannot replace a MacBook Pro or Studio is like saying a MacBook air could not replace a MacBook pro/studio.
Battery is 20% smaller than a MacBook air, so what? 20% less battery life on MacOS, fine with that.
I am sure many people would be happy with a Mac Studio or even a MacBook pro at home and a dual boot iPad pro on the go.
If this option does not exist it's just because it's not profitable for Apple.
Seems like everything said in this thread is out the window. Let me repeat again: the iPad does not have the thermal envelope to handle MacOS.
 
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