All iPads The iPad will never be a Mac, and the Mac will never be an iPad

[ericwn]

This is a stretch of the imagination, and a lack of understanding of where things come from. iPad has mouse support because it has keyboard support. Keyboard support was the essential thing. People can't write long email or word documents (things iPad can do just fine without needing a different OS) without a physical keyboard. But if you're going to embrace keyboard, you need a trackpad/mouse to go along with it, because physical keyboard + touch sucks. So Apple added a unique and cursory track pad support in order to give you something to use while using the keyboard. Understanding the reasons behind things are important, so that you don't use them to fuel fantasies that were never intended.

Just took them what 10 years to add the mouse support? Keyboard support was there on day one.

 

[bcortens]

Since the same SOC is thrown into other products that is a moot point of course.

Several things:
- The iPad (especially the 11" has a far smaller battery than any Mac)
- macOS does not use memory the same way as iPadOS, macOS seems far more aggressive about loading files into memory (using memory as a file cache)

These two things together mean that macOS on iPad would have enough of a negative effect on battery life to lead to user complaints.

 

[Cirillo Gherardo]

Since the same SOC is thrown into other products that is a moot point of course.

That's not the point that you think it is. In fact I would prefer Apple have continued to name the chips in the iPad differently just so that it wouldn't create this false impression amongst those who don't know any better that similar-sounding-chip name = absolutely identical hardware than can basically be a Mac Pro.

 

[richpjr]

This is a stretch of the imagination, and a lack of understanding of where things come from. iPad has mouse support because it has keyboard support. Keyboard support was the essential thing. People can't write long email or word documents (things iPad can do just fine without needing a different OS) without a physical keyboard. But if you're going to embrace keyboard, you need a trackpad/mouse to go along with it, because physical keyboard + touch sucks. So Apple added a unique and cursory track pad support in order to give you something to use while using the keyboard. Understanding the reasons behind things are important, so that you don't use them to fuel fantasies that were never intended.

You miss my point - many people on this forum were adamant the iPad would never get mouse support because it wasn't a computer, was meant for touching and a mouse would ruin the experience because developers would get lazy and rely on it. Same arguments about external storage and external monitor support. And now we have them. I merely point out that never is a long time (especially with Apple working on a touchscreen Mac).

 

[ericwn]

That's not the point that you think it is. In fact I would prefer Apple have continued to name the chips in the iPad differently just so that it wouldn't create this false impression amongst those who don't know any better that similar-sounding-chip name = absolutely identical hardware than can basically be a Mac Pro.

Point is a an iPad chip variant runs most Mac’s these days. Case closed. The rest is artificial product separation for making the most.

 

[ericwn]

Several things:
- The iPad (especially the 11" has a far smaller battery than any Mac)
- macOS does not use memory the same way as iPadOS, macOS seems far more aggressive about loading files into memory (using memory as a file cache)

These two things together mean that macOS on iPad would have enough of a negative effect on battery life to lead to user complaints.

Wonderful. Now users complain about a stale iPadOS in return. We also seem to completely have forgotten that MacOS powered machines way less power efficient in the past with way less than 8GB. I would bet that the use case for MacOS on iPad is the same as it is for most mobile Macs: docked somewhere to a screen for the vast majority of users and time.

 

[bcortens]

Wonderful. Now users complain about a stale iPadOS in return. We also seem to completely have forgotten that MacOS powered machines way less power efficient in the past with way less than 8GB. I would bet that the use case for MacOS on iPad is the same as it is for most mobile Macs: docked somewhere to a screen for the vast majority of users and time.

Possibly, however people have been happier with Mac’s since battery life increased and so suddenly dropping battery life again doesn't sound like a good idea.

 

[ericwn]

Possibly, however people have been happier with Mac’s since battery life increased and so suddenly dropping battery life again doesn't sound like a good idea.

Providing options vs artificially limiting users. I get your concerns, but in my opinion iPadOS serves the mobile use case already. The desktop/productivity use case is the docked approach. Like most MacBooks anyway. I raise my hand for let the user decide.

 

[KPOM]

The first iPad had 3 BB Ram. They can now have 16 GB RAM. And recent tests have shown no speed differences between the 8 GB version and the 16 GB of the M4 iPad. Have a browse on the internet. So the 8 GB is not yet utilised. And RAM is not a major heat issue.

And I do not actually need macOS on an iPad. What I want is to run a single MacOS application, just as it would appear inside macOS, but run it on an M4 iPad Pro with a keyboard. Multi-tasking causing disaster? Well just say to the user, that most multi-tasking is disabled when running a macOS app inside IOS. But when running the macOS app - like for instance MS Word - also have a MacOS file system for the user to see. With the ability to create folders while inside the macOS app.

To make macOS apps run on iPadOS, even one at a time, Apple would have to add macOS APIs, the library, etc. as apps would be “expecting” them and making macOS-type OS calls. iPadOS is simpler and a subset of the code underlying macOS, which is why Macs can run iPadOS apps but not vice versa.

 

[Cirillo Gherardo]

Point is a an iPad chip variant runs most Mac’s these days. Case closed. The rest is artificial product separation for making the most.

”Case closed” is that your understanding of hardware is extremely amateur.

 

[Cirillo Gherardo]

You miss my point - many people on this forum were adamant the iPad would never get mouse support because it wasn't a computer, was meant for touching and a mouse would ruin the experience because developers would get lazy and rely on it. Same arguments about external storage and external monitor support. And now we have them. I merely point out that never is a long time (especially with Apple working on a touchscreen Mac).

Oh no I get it. You think one thing automatically means you have point with something else. Doesn’t work that way.

 

[richpjr]

Oh no I get it. You think one thing automatically means you have point with something else. Doesn’t work that way.

Sure it does. My very simple point was never is a long time to claim something won't ever happen.

 

[Melbourne Park]

...

When it comes to the idea of running a macOS application on iPad, I don't see the point because the iPad is a touch-first device, not a device designed for precise point and click. Just use a Mac, you get all of the multi-touch gestures at your fingertips on the trackpad and it is much more efficient to use multi-touch like that then raise your ape arms and smear your meaty fingers all over a screen every time you need to select a hit target. Mac app UIs also make no sense on smaller screen iPads as the hit targets are small and the screens on the smaller iPads are just not big enough.

I am looking for my wife. She is now retired, and came from a senior corporate lawyer/company secretary (ran the shareholders, all board meetings, AGMS etc etc) and what she is now doing. Most business people come from a Windows environment. People like my wife used Office all the time, with also some company apps now and then. She used table based screens at work, and at home or working out of office, she used an Elitebook x360. This is a convertible notebook which has a nice, coffee proof keyboard, alloy machined construction, Thunberbold 3 and other USB ports, a central pad and a touch screen. At home though, she uses an iPad Pro 10.5 for over 90 minutes a day. She is a technophobe - for instance I have bought her two sets of Apple ear pod Pros, and she hasn't used them. Last years are still un-opened. Their batteries are probably gone now. All the tech I've bought her like digital cameras etc etc she hasn't used. Except for the iPad, which she adores.

So her X360 needs replacing. She has tried Word on the iPad, and she cannot handle it. The file structure is too difficult to use. And it has less power too. And the keyboard I bought her for it (a Logitech unit) hardly connected and lost power too early, so she tried it a couple of times and then gave up.

So she loves the iPad. But she wants a full version of Word, with a file structure. Not available on IOS. She can use Word on a Mac though - but she hates it. Because there's no touch screen. Which she uses a lot of the time. She will actually site there making tables in word using her X360 keyboard and screen, with her 32 Dell Hi Res monitor turned off, and not use the full sized keyboard there with its fancy mouse. Simply because she requires a touch screen. I didn't take that seriously and should have bought her a smaller sized external monitor with a touch screen. At leas then she wouldn't have been bent over typing on her 13.4" X360 keyboard.

There's a heap of people like that. And Windows users laugh at MacBook owners because when they borrow a MacBook, they find there is no touch screen, and they think Apple is a joke.

And really, it is. I have lots of Apple gear - too much to get in the lists here. Max Phone, Ultra watch, Mac Pro, Powerbook Pro, bought a M3 Max 16" MacBook Pro, etc etc. But for my wife, I'm going to buy her a touch based quality PC. And I now think I'll get out my X Ifixit kit, and replace the iPad battery (Apple refuse to). Or get a 3rd party to put in a new battery. Or buy a new iPad, but out of annoyance with Apple, I might get a base model.

If Office had a file structure and provided the facilities of Windows (such as tables and indexes) then a 13" Pro iPad with a keyboard would have been a no brainer, or maybe the 11" with keyboard. But iOS file structure sucks. And I do realise that for many, Word is dead, and that my likes are those of the dinosaur. The trend for kids and youth is Google docs with shared editing. iPad with a keyboard is fine for that, and storage of docs is up to Google.

As far as running multiple monitors and FCP etc, yeh ... I reckon one would be crazy to do that on an iPad for editing at least. Serious users have lots of screens, storage and need fast exports. And anyway, it's cheaper on a mac. For the price of a 13" iPad pro & Apple keyboard, one can buy a similar speck 15" MacBook Air, and have a base iPad. Spend 100 bucks more and get a MacBook Pro with more RAM and an Ipad.

So while I've bought iPad Pros before, because IOS seems to be going nowhere worthwhile with its toy apps, I figure why reward a poor OS by buying the marvellous little iPad when one has to pay for the privilege. And one doesn't even get good battery life, for a product that is designed when operating not to be plugged in? Why" Because Apple marketing personnel wanted to advertise lightness. So stuff battery life. That's the biggest joke of all.

And a main reason I bought the Ultra watch was battery life. Same too with the iPhone Max. They are also products designed to be used un-plugged.

 

[iPadified]

I've never seen so many people argue for less features and not more.

"Less is more"?

I think there is a balance between number of features and ease of use. Mac is not so sensitive to these considerations while iPads definetely are.

 

[iPadified]

I am looking for my wife. She is now retired, and came from a senior corporate lawyer/company secretary (ran the shareholders, all board meetings, AGMS etc etc) and what she is now doing. Most business people come from a Windows environment. People like my wife used Office all the time, with also some company apps now and then. She used table based screens at work, and at home or working out of office, she used an Elitebook x360. This is a convertible notebook which has a nice, coffee proof keyboard, alloy machined construction, Thunberbold 3 and other USB ports, a central pad and a touch screen. At home though, she uses an iPad Pro 10.5 for over 90 minutes a day. She is a technophobe - for instance I have bought her two sets of Apple ear pod Pros, and she hasn't used them. Last years are still un-opened. Their batteries are probably gone now. All the tech I've bought her like digital cameras etc etc she hasn't used. Except for the iPad, which she adores.

So her X360 needs replacing. She has tried Word on the iPad, and she cannot handle it. The file structure is too difficult to use. And it has less power too. And the keyboard I bought her for it (a Logitech unit) hardly connected and lost power too early, so she tried it a couple of times and then gave up.

So she loves the iPad. But she wants a full version of Word, with a file structure. Not available on IOS. She can use Word on a Mac though - but she hates it. Because there's no touch screen. Which she uses a lot of the time. She will actually site there making tables in word using her X360 keyboard and screen, with her 32 Dell Hi Res monitor turned off, and not use the full sized keyboard there with its fancy mouse. Simply because she requires a touch screen. I didn't take that seriously and should have bought her a smaller sized external monitor with a touch screen. At leas then she wouldn't have been bent over typing on her 13.4" X360 keyboard.

There's a heap of people like that. And Windows users laugh at MacBook owners because when they borrow a MacBook, they find there is no touch screen, and they think Apple is a joke.

And really, it is. I have lots of Apple gear - too much to get in the lists here. Max Phone, Ultra watch, Mac Pro, Powerbook Pro, bought a M3 Max 16" MacBook Pro, etc etc. But for my wife, I'm going to buy her a touch based quality PC. And I now think I'll get out my X Ifixit kit, and replace the iPad battery (Apple refuse to). Or get a 3rd party to put in a new battery. Or buy a new iPad, but out of annoyance with Apple, I might get a base model.

If Office had a file structure and provided the facilities of Windows (such as tables and indexes) then a 13" Pro iPad with a keyboard would have been a no brainer, or maybe the 11" with keyboard. But iOS file structure sucks. And I do realise that for many, Word is dead, and that my likes are those of the dinosaur. The trend for kids and youth is Google docs with shared editing. iPad with a keyboard is fine for that, and storage of docs is up to Google.

As far as running multiple monitors and FCP etc, yeh ... I reckon one would be crazy to do that on an iPad for editing at least. Serious users have lots of screens, storage and need fast exports. And anyway, it's cheaper on a mac. For the price of a 13" iPad pro & Apple keyboard, one can buy a similar speck 15" MacBook Air, and have a base iPad. Spend 100 bucks more and get a MacBook Pro with more RAM and an Ipad.

So while I've bought iPad Pros before, because IOS seems to be going nowhere worthwhile with its toy apps, I figure why reward a poor OS by buying the marvellous little iPad when one has to pay for the privilege. And one doesn't even get good battery life, for a product that is designed when operating not to be plugged in? Why" Because Apple marketing personnel wanted to advertise lightness. So stuff battery life. That's the biggest joke of all.

And a main reason I bought the Ultra watch was battery life. Same too with the iPhone Max. They are also products designed to be used un-plugged.

I must have a very peculiar iPad and Word app as I see the whole file tree on the iPad, Onedrive and iCloud and it works like Finder.

Would you call an app suitable to write scientific papers for a toy? Some would argue that the desktop Word app as "bloated". I can also be that your wife is so biased by the Window work flow for a long time so anything else seems bad and alien. I see the same for lots of people trying a Mac coming from windows and let say they wrinkle the noses.

 

[Kahnforever]

I am looking for my wife. She is now retired, and came from a senior corporate lawyer/company secretary (ran the shareholders, all board meetings, AGMS etc etc) and what she is now doing. Most business people come from a Windows environment. People like my wife used Office all the time, with also some company apps now and then. She used table based screens at work, and at home or working out of office, she used an Elitebook x360. This is a convertible notebook which has a nice, coffee proof keyboard, alloy machined construction, Thunberbold 3 and other USB ports, a central pad and a touch screen. At home though, she uses an iPad Pro 10.5 for over 90 minutes a day. She is a technophobe - for instance I have bought her two sets of Apple ear pod Pros, and she hasn't used them. Last years are still un-opened. Their batteries are probably gone now. All the tech I've bought her like digital cameras etc etc she hasn't used. Except for the iPad, which she adores.

So her X360 needs replacing. She has tried Word on the iPad, and she cannot handle it. The file structure is too difficult to use. And it has less power too. And the keyboard I bought her for it (a Logitech unit) hardly connected and lost power too early, so she tried it a couple of times and then gave up.

So she loves the iPad. But she wants a full version of Word, with a file structure. Not available on IOS. She can use Word on a Mac though - but she hates it. Because there's no touch screen. Which she uses a lot of the time. She will actually site there making tables in word using her X360 keyboard and screen, with her 32 Dell Hi Res monitor turned off, and not use the full sized keyboard there with its fancy mouse. Simply because she requires a touch screen. I didn't take that seriously and should have bought her a smaller sized external monitor with a touch screen. At leas then she wouldn't have been bent over typing on her 13.4" X360 keyboard.

There's a heap of people like that. And Windows users laugh at MacBook owners because when they borrow a MacBook, they find there is no touch screen, and they think Apple is a joke.

And really, it is. I have lots of Apple gear - too much to get in the lists here. Max Phone, Ultra watch, Mac Pro, Powerbook Pro, bought a M3 Max 16" MacBook Pro, etc etc. But for my wife, I'm going to buy her a touch based quality PC. And I now think I'll get out my X Ifixit kit, and replace the iPad battery (Apple refuse to). Or get a 3rd party to put in a new battery. Or buy a new iPad, but out of annoyance with Apple, I might get a base model.

If Office had a file structure and provided the facilities of Windows (such as tables and indexes) then a 13" Pro iPad with a keyboard would have been a no brainer, or maybe the 11" with keyboard. But iOS file structure sucks. And I do realise that for many, Word is dead, and that my likes are those of the dinosaur. The trend for kids and youth is Google docs with shared editing. iPad with a keyboard is fine for that, and storage of docs is up to Google.

As far as running multiple monitors and FCP etc, yeh ... I reckon one would be crazy to do that on an iPad for editing at least. Serious users have lots of screens, storage and need fast exports. And anyway, it's cheaper on a mac. For the price of a 13" iPad pro & Apple keyboard, one can buy a similar speck 15" MacBook Air, and have a base iPad. Spend 100 bucks more and get a MacBook Pro with more RAM and an Ipad.

So while I've bought iPad Pros before, because IOS seems to be going nowhere worthwhile with its toy apps, I figure why reward a poor OS by buying the marvellous little iPad when one has to pay for the privilege. And one doesn't even get good battery life, for a product that is designed when operating not to be plugged in? Why" Because Apple marketing personnel wanted to advertise lightness. So stuff battery life. That's the biggest joke of all.

And a main reason I bought the Ultra watch was battery life. Same too with the iPhone Max. They are also products designed to be used un-plugged.

I really don't get why so many people complain about the file system on an iPad or iPhone. There are new ways to do file systems. Sure, the iPad file system is not going to be like on a point and click device like a Mac: the file icons are going to be much larger so your fingers can reliably select them. But I use the Files App on the iPhone and iPad which is basically a lot like the Mac file system, and also for Microsoft, I use OneDrive, and everything just flows from that file system accessible from every device you can think of.

I think Apple could make the Files App better and more accessible in iOS and iPadOS. For instance, some gesture or slideout from the screen to reveal the Files App.

 

[Kahnforever]

I must have a very peculiar iPad and Word app as I see the whole file tree on the iPad, Onedrive and iCloud and it works like Finder.

Would you call an app suitable to write scientific papers for a toy? Some would argue that the desktop Word app as "bloated". I can also be that your wife is so biased by the Window work flow for a long time so anything else seems bad and alien. I see the same for lots of people trying a Mac coming from windows and let say they wrinkle the noses.

Some of us really show our age as we get stuck on old design patterns and metaphors and workflows. At work, I just don't bother at all with client-side Windows file systems anymore. I'm fully bought into OneDrive online and do all file management online in OneDrive. All project files are in the files tab in a Teams channel.

All my files for my Mac and iPad and iPhone are in iCloud, including my Desktop so everything syncs and the Files App is actually useful because all my files are managed in iCloud's file system.

 

[fw85]

Some of us really show our age as we get stuck on old design patterns and metaphors and workflows. At work, I just don't bother at all with client-side Windows file systems anymore. I'm fully bought into OneDrive online and do all file management online in OneDrive. All project files are in the files tab in a Teams channel.

All my files for my Mac and iPad and iPhone are in iCloud, including my Desktop so everything syncs and the Files App is actually useful because all my files are managed in iCloud's file system.

That's true, a lot of people who grew up in the PC era now stubbornly cling to the way they used to get things done on Windows/Mac, sometimes not realizing that a lot of those can be done way easier on mobile computing platforms now, such as phones and tablets.

And mobile computing/cloud based workflows/SaaS is the future, it's already taken over personal computing needs of Gen Z and Alpha.
Office spaces will be the last to get on board, but eventually they will. With cloud computing, there's no reason we should be lugging computers in our bag on our way to work anymore - just take some thin client that connects to a cloud hosted workspace, that's easier to scale to performance, easier to maintain for admins and more secure all around.

I genuinely think Steve Jobs was spot on when he described the beginning of a 'post-PC' era.. like a decade ago already.

 

[ericwn]

”Case closed” is that your understanding of hardware is extremely amateur.

Oh do enlighten us on what I am missing.

Sure it does. My very simple point was never is a long time to claim something won't ever happen.

Exactly. Blanko statements like that tend to not age well.

 

[bcortens]

Providing options vs artificially limiting users. I get your concerns, but in my opinion iPadOS serves the mobile use case already. The desktop/productivity use case is the docked approach. Like most MacBooks anyway. I raise my hand for let the user decide.

I actually disagree with those who call to make macOS only available while docked. I don't want macOS on iPad, I want them to expand the capabilities of iPadOS. However IF they bring macOS to iPad they shouldn't limit it to docked mode. The iPad needs to maintain its flexibility where you can be working in the Magic Keyboard and then just tear the iPad away and keep going uninterrupted. Of course you'll lose precision without the touchpad but it would still be better than the jarring experience of dumping you out of macOS.

 

[ericwn]

I actually disagree with those who call to make macOS only available while docked. I don't want macOS on iPad, I want them to expand the capabilities of iPadOS. However IF they bring macOS to iPad they shouldn't limit it to docked mode. The iPad needs to maintain its flexibility where you can be working in the Magic Keyboard and then just tear the iPad away and keep going uninterrupted. Of course you'll lose precision without the touchpad but it would still be better than the jarring experience of dumping you out of macOS.

If a company is capable of taking on that UI challenge it’s Apple I hope. There’s plenty room for improvement. Fingers crossed they develop the platform further.

 

[rui no onna]

However IF they bring macOS to iPad they shouldn't limit it to docked mode. The iPad needs to maintain its flexibility where you can be working in the Magic Keyboard and then just tear the iPad away and keep going uninterrupted. Of course you'll lose precision without the touchpad but it would still be better than the jarring experience of dumping you out of macOS.

Caveat there, it’s not so much macOS itself. Apple can do the work for macOS. It’s the apps for Macs that are designed with keyboard and mouse/trackpad in mind.

That’s one of my issues with Windows tablets. You pretty much need a stylus to navigate non-Metro apps all the time.

But I agree, it shouldn’t suddenly switch between iPadOS and macOS when connecting/disconnecting the keyboard. That’ going to be problematic for currently running apps.

 

[Cirillo Gherardo]

I actually disagree with those who call to make macOS only available while docked. I don't want macOS on iPad, I want them to expand the capabilities of iPadOS. However IF they bring macOS to iPad they shouldn't limit it to docked mode. The iPad needs to maintain its flexibility where you can be working in the Magic Keyboard and then just tear the iPad away and keep going uninterrupted. Of course you'll lose precision without the touchpad but it would still be better than the jarring experience of dumping you out of macOS.

Which is why its never, ever going to happen. Horrible UX to be dumped out of macOS, and impossible UX to let you continue to hunt and peck at macOS. Terrible product. Not something Apple would ever approve of.

 

[Kahnforever]

Caveat there, it’s not so much macOS itself. Apple can do the work for macOS. It’s the apps for Macs that are designed with keyboard and mouse/trackpad in mind.

That’s one of my issues with Windows tablets. You pretty much need a stylus to navigate non-Metro apps all the time.

But I agree, it shouldn’t suddenly switch between iPadOS and macOS when connecting/disconnecting the keyboard. That’ going to be problematic for currently running apps.

It's hilarious to me how people keep stumbling over the same arguments for years about how the iPad should run macOS and Mac software, and dual boot... and that iPad's UI in iPadOS is too limiting, etc. It's like continuing to argue that a lawn mower should have wings. No it shouldn't, and no, the iPad should not run Mac apps and macOS. It's too small, it's designed for touch, it has a crap thermal envelope, it's design to run off battery alone, etc. The iPad will never, ever be a Mac and people just need to stop and give it a rest already. Let a lawn mower be a lawn mower. Let a car be a car. Let a truck be a truck...

 

[richpjr]

It's hilarious to me how people keep stumbling over the same arguments for years about how the iPad should run macOS and Mac software, and dual boot... and that iPad's UI in iPadOS is too limiting, etc. It's like continuing to argue that a lawn mower should have wings. No it shouldn't, and no, the iPad should not run Mac apps and macOS. It's too small, it's designed for touch, it has a crap thermal envelope, it's design to run off battery alone, etc. The iPad will never, ever be a Mac and people just need to stop and give it a rest already. Let a lawn mower be a lawn mower. Let a car be a car. Let a truck be a truck...

And yet Apple is working on a touchscreen Mac...