The Mac Paradox

[Freyqq]

Mac laptops are great. They look great, they are light, and they have great specs for what you're paying for. Look at the macbook pro. It looks better than any other comp on the market. It weights little. Good battery life. One of the best video cards on the market. Competatively priced for a student. I paid 1800-free ipod (200) - free printer (100). So 1500 for a very nice laptop.

BUT

desktops are mac's weakpoint

it is no wonder why people say that macs don't game well

they have subpar components for what you are paying

sure the imac looks great..but you're paying desktop prices for laptop components. While it may be aesthetically pleasing to have your monitor the same as your computer..it lacks some fundamental things that set it apart from a tower, making it inherently flawed. First off, as I mentioned earlier, you are getting laptop components in a desktop. This means that you are getting worse performance for higher component costs. Upgradability. Little to none. Specs...sub par. All so your computer looks like a monitor? Think of a typical PC desktop. Most put the desktop on the floor and the monitor on the desk. You're not really saving any space by having it all in one. You are still just having a monitor on the desk...its just that you also have an unobtrusive desktop in an unused space on the floor. If you manage your cables well..it looks plenty aesthetically pleasing.

And its not like apple never came out with a tower itself. The Mac Pro is a beast of a tower. It has 2 processors..it looks great..it can handle a lot of ram. But..it is also horribly overpriced. 3k and you get a last gen radeon? Also..the thing is huge. It may look nice..but it takes up much more space than a similar PC desktop.

mac mini? I won't even bother talking about it. It is a joke. $600 for a last gen laptop parts with no screen and not a laptop.

Apple needs to shape up.

1. make a smaller tower that is actually competitive.
2. release bios flashes for current cards for the mac pro so people can fully upgrade their upgradable computers. I don't care if its up to the card manufacturers to do this. Apple obviously asks them to do this for them in the first place. They can ask them to do this for other cards too. I wouldnt be suprised if apple in fact asks the card manufactures not to release this because it would cut into their profits of buying the cards through apple.
3. make the imac able to plug into a computer and act as a monitor...so its not useless 5+ years from now and you can use that 24" monitor for something.
4. charge more competatively..mac pro anyone?

laptops are just fine..desktops need work. No wonder apple always says their laptops outsell their desktops...b\c their desktops are overpriced, outdated, and fundamentally flawed in their design.

form over function?

 

[decksnap]

The iMac and Macpro are both really good buys. If you are that into games, you shouldn't be buying a Mac to begin with.

 

[Freyqq]

The iMac and Macpro are both really good buys. If you are that into games, you shouldn't be buying a Mac to begin with.

well..thats kinda the point. Why should I not be able to game well when apple is advertising bootcamp as the perfect solution? Why should I not be able to buy a mac and game? This situation is created entirely by apple. There is no good reason why macs can't also game besides apple's inability to build computers comparatively to the PC world in this area.

Furthermore, my main point has nothing to do with gaming at all.

the imac, mac pro, and mac mini are NOT good buys b\c of the reasons listed. Apple caters to a niche market of people that love OSX. Fine. But, if they designed their macs with function in mind over or coinciding with form, my whole argument would disappear. There is no reason why they can't build a computer that has up to date specs for a competitive price. It doesn't have to be the lowest price on the market..just something close that makes sense. I don't mind spending 100 or even 150 more for OSX. But I expect the same quality parts and functionality I would expect from a PC for only 100 or 150 more...not hundreds more for less. Apple laptops exceed in this area. Apple desktops do not.

 

[MikeL]

I love these threads. They speak to a niche market. Apple just doesn't chose to compete for the hardcore gamers. They never have, and likely never will. It really doesn't make much sense for them to cater to that crowd, as there just isn't software available.

This kind of post also shows a lack of sophistication when it comes to marketing. Apple's product line is a thing of beauty. It begs people to spend more than they had planned. The steps between models and product lines are small enough to encourage people to bump up their buy. It's really, really well done, and I don't think Apple ever gets enough credit for this. No other computer company makes it so easy or compelling to spend just a little bit more. As a shareholder, I absolutely love this.

Apple isn't a discount brand. They never will be.

 

[Freyqq]

The steps between models and product lines are small enough to encourage people to bump up their buy. It's really, really well done, and I don't think Apple ever gets enough credit for this. No other computer company makes it so easy or compelling to spend just a little bit more. As a shareholder, I absolutely love this.

Apple isn't a discount brand. They never will be.

The step between models is not a small step at all. The difference between a mac mini, an imac, and a mac pro is each roughly $1000. The component increases and customizability of the model for each is similar to any other computer company.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Apple isn't a discount brand. They never will be.

So why do they use 2 year old video cards in their top-of-the-line tower?

 

[flopticalcube]

Apple's share price speaks for itself. They are firing on all cylinders at the moment. Sure they have gaps in their products and don't refresh often enough but the greater market seems not to care.

 

[Freyqq]

Apple's share price speaks for itself. They are firing on all cylinders at the moment. Sure they have gaps in their products and don't refresh often enough but the greater market seems not to care.

apple's share prices are driven marginally by their macs

it is obviously driven more by ipod, iphone, etc sales

take the recent delay of lepoard for example..or the complete neglect of the mac mini......

 

[decksnap]

the imac, mac pro, and mac mini are NOT good buys b\c of the reasons listed.

This argument has been had. At the end of the day, it's always from a gamer, whom Apple really doesn't cater to. Nor should they, if it increases the price I pay.

 

[flopticalcube]

apple's share prices are driven marginally by their macs

it is obviously driven more by ipod, iphone, etc sales

take the recent delay of lepoard for example..or the complete neglect of the mac mini......

Which is probably why they dropped computer from their name.

 

[Freyqq]

This argument has been had. At the end of the day, it's always from a gamer, whom Apple really doesn't cater to. Nor should they, if it increases the price I pay.

for the record...i play xbox 360 games

other than tiberium wars, I haven't bought a PC game in years.

Sure I may be a "gamer" in some respects. This respect is the respect of having good hardware when i'm paying top dollar for a computer. For the record..there are other uses of good hardware other than playing games. If no one cared about having good hardware..no one would update their macs every time a new model is released.

increases the price you pay? You are already paying more than your buddy with a PC desktop with better parts. Your price is already increased.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

The iMac and Macpro are both really good buys. If you are that into games, you shouldn't be buying a Mac to begin with.

I play games on my iMac and it's pretty darn good, I'm guessing I'm missing the point of the post?

 

[decksnap]

increases the price you pay? You are already paying more than your buddy with a PC desktop with better parts. Your price is already increased.

That's (one of) the flaw(s) in your argument. When I bought my Macpro, you couldn't spec a similar system from anybody else to beat the price.

EDIT: Holy *&^. I've got Steve Jobs on the line right now. He's only got a minute but he wanted me to ask you personally what he should put in his computers and how much they should cost. He says he 'doesn't know much about computers.'

EDIT 2: Alright I lost him. His iPhone lost service. But he said he'll be in touch directly, and that 'everything is going to be alright'.

 

[flopticalcube]

I play games on my iMac and it's pretty darn good, I'm guessing I'm missing the point of the post?

There isn't one, its a troll post.

 

[Freyqq]

Which is probably why they dropped computer from their name.

which is also probably why they are obviously neglecting their desktop computer business..

 

[flopticalcube]

which is also probably why they are obviously neglecting their desktop computer business..

except its growing faster than any other leading PC retailer.

 

[Freyqq]

That's (one of) the flaw(s) in your argument. When I bought my Macpro, you couldn't spec a similar system from anybody else to beat the price.

that was also a year ago. Today, this argument is no longer valid. Furthermore, I did not post this rant a year ago. The mac pro has been largely unchanged in nearly a year. I find this problematic.

 

[Freyqq]

except its growing faster than any other leading PC retailer.

which is mostly due to their laptop sales

 

[MikeL]

The step between models is not a small step at all. The difference between a mac mini, an imac, and a mac pro is each roughly $1000. The component increases and customizability of the model for each is similar to any other computer company.

Now I know you're just ignorant. Thanks.

Let me guess, you're 20?

 

[Freyqq]

Now I know you're just ignorant. Thanks.

Let me guess, you're 20?

I suppose this is the part where you tell me that 1000 isn't much money.

Ok..maybe to you it isn't but to the general consumer that is use to spending under 1000 on a computer would tend to disagree. I can build a mac pro equivolent computer for 1500 when they go for 3000. That is entirely besides the point anyhow. Its not even about money..I was only responding to your point where you said that the jump in price is marginal. You literally CAN NOT buy a mac pro that has the specs of a good high-end PC. It doesn't matter how much you are willing to pay.

 

[GavinTing]

I suppose this is the part where you tell me that 1000 isn't much money.

Ok..maybe to you it isn't but to the general consumer that is use to spending under 1000 on a computer would tend to disagree. I can build a mac pro equivolent computer for 1500 when they go for 3000. That is entirely besides the point anyhow. Its not even about money..I was only responding to your point where you said that the jump in price is marginal. You literally CAN NOT buy a mac pro that has the specs of a good high-end PC. It doesn't matter how much you are willing to pay.

Thats why we.. Don't..

Apple stuff is usually great when it first comes out, but because of their very very slow updates, PC makers catch up. The current mac pro managed to stay viable for quite a while you know.. Just now we need to wait for another update, before it will be years ahead of the PC crowd again.

Plus, I think people buy iMacs for the cool factor.. Like, you don't need an LV bag, you can get a nice big sack with more pockets for much cheaper! But people still buy the LV.

 

[MikeL]

I suppose this is the part where you tell me that 1000 isn't much money.

Ok..maybe to you it isn't but to the general consumer that is use to spending under 1000 on a computer would tend to disagree. I can build a mac pro equivolent computer for 1500 when they go for 3000. That is entirely besides the point anyhow. Its not even about money..I was only responding to your point where you said that the jump in price is marginal. You literally CAN NOT buy a mac pro that has the specs of a good high-end PC. It doesn't matter how much you are willing to pay.

No, it's the part where I tell you your numbers are wrong, and that you're massaging them to fit your argument. That's just poor thinking.

You don't have the knowledge or experience to understand the asset that Apple has created in their pricing structure. Take some marketing classes. Read some studies. Watch how other companies struggle--and fail--to build such an easy to navigate and compelling set of product lines.

I don't expect you to get this. I don't think you can. It's beyond where you are. Someday, though, you might. You just need to learn a bit. The computer business isn't what you mistakenly think it is about.

 

[suneohair]

Who cares? Buy what you want and shut it up.

P.S. The Mac Pro needs an update. Not video cards specifically before we start assuming.

P.S.S. MikeL, chill with the high and mighty "you aren't there yet" it is the Internet man. Seriously.

 

[Freyqq]

No, it's the part where I tell you your numbers are wrong, and that you're massaging them to fit your argument. That's just poor thinking.

You don't have the knowledge or experience to understand the asset that Apple has created in their pricing structure. Take some marketing classes. Read some studies. Watch how other companies struggle--and fail--to build such an easy to navigate and compelling set of product lines.

I don't expect you to get this. I don't think you can. It's beyond where you are. Someday, though, you might. You just need to learn a bit. The computer business isn't what you mistakenly think it is about.

....

....

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yeah i know all about that. Sure its GREAT from apple's point of view. They make plenty of profit..look at their margins on the iphone for instance. They built a user base that will pay a lot of money for a product that costs half of what they sell it for to make. That profit is used to pay for jobs, RND, advertising, packaging, stores, you name it. Apple margins are huge compared to dell or other manufactures. This is also something you seem to understand. Great. Yay. Go apple. Your product lines are straightforward and easy to understand. etc etc etc. But..consider from a consumer point of view. I'm paying apple way more than I should for an inferior product hardwarewise. Why?

You could argue that they have to. In order to keep up with dell etc who sell way more computers than apple does, they charge more and take more profit. Not quite. If they charge more, demand decreases due to the increase in price. Therefore, they want to find the perfect price where they exact the most profit per total units sold. This happens to be pretty high.

So what.

This doesn't change anything. This does not explain why they can't tweak the current lines as I said, add a new line that is more competitive to drive in sales and converts, and actually update their product lines with up to date hardware.

It is you that miss the point, not I.

 

[ffakr]

PC/Mac gaming

You know what's funny.. I really want to have a LAN party. I wired my house with Cat5e and a 100Mb switch years ago for this reason and I've had a few in the past.

The problem is, I really can't find a PC game I care about. I like historical war style FPS but it's been done over and over and over again.
The PC gaming industry is stale. They've got maybe 3-5 old standards that they go back to again and again with slightly better graphics each time.

I was a strong advocate for Apple and gaming for years. Every WWDC I suggested to Apple that they subsidize the game vendors with free developmental hardware and training for their developers as well as a pipeline directly into Apple's graphics group. Of course, the response from Apple's reps was always "we're not in the business of loosing money anymore" when I suggest they give anything away.

At this point, though, I can see Apple's reluctance to get into gaming hard core. It's a niche market. It's impossible to even play in without full on support from software AND [graphics] hardware vendors.
Add to that.. the market is stale and it does seem to be going back to the consoles. Especially with HD TVs, the consoles may not be as good as high end PCs but they're good enough and there's a LOT of them out there.

I hate to say it, but from a cost-return basis, Apple's probably best to stay out of the gaming industry. I don't see them making money by competing with Falcon or other gaming companies (heck, even Dell XPS line)

One other thing, people bitch and moan about the laptop components in the iMacs but iMacs are pretty capable gaming machines if you don't expect to run something like Elder Scrolls at high rez (which is designed to crush hardware). I run Battlefield 2142 on my 15" Macbook Pro (gen 1) respectably well and it's not nearly as fast as a current iMac. On our Gen1 17" iMac we run older FPS fine [UT2003 and BF 1942 run fantastic].
IMHO, though I would like more Umph as an option in the iMac, it's fast enough to run nearly any multi-play FPS fine (though don't expect 120 fps at full rez on the 24" monitor). Bleeding Edge gaming rig? NO. Run games well? IMHO, yes.
And yes.. iMacs are packed tight, you won't get a real cutting edge graphics chipset in there. I bet Apple would sell more if you could get one with a 8800GTS (or GT) and the heat sink ribs running up the back. I'd have to get one I think.