The Mac Paradox

[TheAnswer]

My point was never..is it economical for apple to make a midrange tower. It doesn't matter.

I'm guessing it matters to Apple's executives, shareholders and anyone concerned with the future of the company.

There is no way anyone here even knows if it is economical. You don't know the margins or have access the apple's financial information.

And neither do you. But guess who does...it's the people inside Apple. The same people who have chosen not to release such a product.

My point is..do the consumers want to accept a midrange tower for an adequate price?

That's not a point...that's a question.

If a lot of people would buy the computer..it would be profitable if apple simply adjusts its margins on the product.

Again, without access to Apple's numbers...who are you to suggest that such a margin adjustment would be wise?

I never said it had to compete pricewise with PC vendors..i'm just saying it needs to be there.

As I've said before, the prospective midrange tower customer appears to shop mainly on price, so if it's not competitive pricewise...what's the point?

 

[Blue Velvet]

Do you need a 3k computer to do photoshop?

That's a meaningless question. 'Doing' Photoshop can vary between someone doing a little GIF for a website up to a 2-3gb file in CMYK 16bit with untold layers... some work I do, the 2.5 dual G5 at work struggles with, even with fast scratch disks. They were the fastest Macs we could buy at the time and are starting to show their age. Time is money.

 

[TheAnswer]

Time is money.

Which reminds me of another point...

If all these midrange tower/mini-tower proponents stopped worrying about their FPS in the games they are playing and worked more billable hours, many of them could then afford to buy the Mac Pro they really want.

 

[IJ Reilly]

My point was never..is it economical for apple to make a midrange tower. It doesn't matter. There is no way anyone here even knows if it is economical. You don't know the margins or have access the apple's financial information. My point is..do the consumers want to accept a midrange tower for an adequate price?

Quite to the contrary, this is one thing we do know. If Apple could make good money selling a midrange tower, then they'd be selling a midrange tower. Ipso facto. Once again, we have the rather ridiculous assumption inherent with this argument that Apple simply hasn't considered such a product, that if they aren't selling one it's because they've got some (for lack of a better word) religious objections to it.

Second, I think we should drop the term "niche product" from this discussion, unless someone can come up with a useful working definition for it. I can't. Virtually all products are "niche products," if only because not everyone buys them.

 

[balamw]

If a lot of people would buy the computer..it would be profitable if apple simply adjusts its margins on the product. I never said it had to compete pricewise with PC vendors..i'm just saying it needs to be there.

Sigh. You can't read can you.

Some sizable fraction of MR users does not translate to "a lot of people". Most people buy a Mac over a PC because it's different, filling a hole that exists on the PC side, not because it's a head-to-head competitive product with Dell. And those people are not always well represented on MR.

Apple is doing fine without filling this hole, and they definitely know what they are doing.

Second, I think we should drop the term "niche product" from this discussion, unless someone can come up with a useful working definition for it. I can't. Virtually all products are "niche products," if only because not everyone buys them.

Prexactly. The iPod line as a whole is not a niche product and is dominant, but it does represent a number of individual "niches". Some prefer the shuffle, others the 160 GB classic. The shuffle user wants size & convenience, while the classic user wants to have their entire library on them at all times. Different strokes for different folks. The classic user will be quite unsatisfied with the shuffle and vice versa.

B

 

[martychang]

Which reminds me of another point...

If all these midrange tower/mini-tower proponents stopped worrying about their FPS in the games they are playing and worked more billable hours, many of them could then afford to buy the Mac Pro they really want.

Just because someone plays a game every now and then, instead of watching TV or reading a book doesn't mean they don't work an 8-12 hour day at a decent job.

 

[CalBoy]

If a lot of people would buy the computer..it would be profitable if apple simply adjusts its margins on the product. I never said it had to compete pricewise with PC vendors..i'm just saying it needs to be there.

*Slaps face*

Ok, we've been over this many times now and I don't care to repeat it for the tenth time; balamw, IJ Reilly, TheAnswer, maestrokev, Blubbert and others, have given you good answers in their posts. If you really can't understand what we're trying to say, then I feel sorry for you. I really do.

 

[decksnap]

do you know what games do? Games render frames. If you did any 3d work on that mac pro of yours that is faster than every pc as you say...you might actually need a good card. Believe it or not..some people do 3d work and need a nice graphics card. Just because you don't doesn't mean the capability should not be there.

do graphics professionals really need a mac pro? Do you need a 3k computer to do photoshop? It is easy to dismiss the concept by saying that a professional should get a pro computer..but honestly who are you to say that every graphics professional needs to put down 3k in order to work professionally? Prior to the release of the new imac with glossy screen...PLENTY of people did their photoshop work on imacs. Now that the glossy screen is present..many are forced to upgrade to a mac pro and pay twice as much for a computer that has not been upgraded by apple in a year despite not needing that kind of power.

Well no, I don't need a good card. But sure, the 3D people do. So all you really want is a tower that's like the Macpro, but with a $1500 gaming card in it, but for a lot less money, right? Sounds simple enough.

 

[Freyqq]

Well no, I don't need a good card. But sure, the 3D people do. So all you really want is a tower that's like the Macpro, but with a $1500 gaming card in it, but for a lot less money, right? Sounds simple enough.

ignorance...

there is no such thing as a $1500 gaming card

the 8800GTX, pretty much the best card you can buy right now..is $500

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130072

incidentally, the radeon 1900 apple sells is $500 and it can't do half what this card can do

but hey..you don't need to put that card in a tower mac. That is overkill..right?

8600GTS - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130286

$200

not $1500

sounds simple enough to me.

 

[CalBoy]

there is no such thing as a $1500 gaming card

I think he may have been using that number in hyperbole Take it easy.

 

[maestrokev]

That's a meaningless question. 'Doing' Photoshop can vary between someone doing a little GIF for a website up to a 2-3gb file in CMYK 16bit with untold layers... some work I do, the 2.5 dual G5 at work struggles with, even with fast scratch disks. They were the fastest Macs we could buy at the time and are starting to show their age. Time is money.

Blue Velvet: exactly, time is money. I think lots of people like the OP think they're graphics designers or Photoshop people because they do some work on the side. I've never seen successful professionals with back to back profitable contracts stop to say "hey, let's cut some corners and get the cheaper tool and take our chances." Most successful professionals I know whether it's graphic arts to dentists to plumbers get the right tool for the job - cost isn't an issue unless you're starting out since it's amortized and expensed. The people who keep arguing they can do the same work on an iMac or MB probably also like to buy their rock climbing gear from WalMart

*Slaps face*

Ok, we've been over this many times now and I don't care to repeat it for the tenth time; balamw, IJ Reilly, TheAnswer, maestrokev, Blubbert and others, have given you good answers in their posts. If you really can't understand what we're trying to say, then I feel sorry for you. I really do.

CalBoy, you know those people at school/work who don't seem to "get it" no matter how many times a concept is explained to them ... you start to wonder whether they're just being argumentative for the sake of it or ...

 

[Freyqq]

Blue Velvet: exactly, time is money. I think lots of people like the OP think they're graphics designers or Photoshop people because they do some work on the side. I've never seen successful professionals with back to back profitable contracts stop to say "hey, let's cut some corners and get the cheaper tool and take our chances." Most successful professionals I know whether it's graphic arts to dentists to plumbers get the right tool for the job - cost isn't an issue unless you're starting out since it's amortized and expensed. The people who keep arguing they can do the same work on an iMac or MB probably also like to buy their rock climbing gear from WalMart

using that logic, it would be most beneficial to completely deck out the mac pro with every available option in order to cut rendering times by mere seconds. Why stop there? Keep upgrading every time a new option comes available. Buy that 6k decked out mac pro and buy a new one every year...decked out of course. After all..time is money..or is it?

There is always a point where the cost associated with the computer exceeds the increase in profit associated with the upgrade. Not everyone can justify spending 3k+ on a mac pro. The tools for the job as you say don't always call for a mac pro.

 

[CalBoy]

CalBoy, you know those people at school/work who don't seem to "get it" no matter how many times a concept is explained to them ... you start to wonder whether they're just being argumentative for the sake of it or ...

Yeah...I guess that's what it is. I kind of feel bad for the OP though, because I can see why he wants the product. It's just too bad that not too many others do. It's almost like being a Fresca fan.

There is always a point where the cost associated with the computer exceeds the increase in profit associated with the upgrade. Not everyone can justify spending 3k+ on a mac pro. The tools for the job as you say don't always call for a mac pro.

Yes, you're quite correct. Even for businesses, there isn't always an interest in buying the most advanced equipment every few months.

 

[contoursvt]

I was just curious to see how much a pro workstation can be built for if I wanted something really heavy duty similar to an 8 core mac pro but as a machine I build for myself. This should not be taken as me comparing prices directly because a DIY PC will likely be cheaper but curious anyway....Prices in canadian $$


Chassis - Antec P180 $140
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=18512&vpn=P180B&manufacture=ANTEC

Power Supply - Antec Truepower 1000W $235
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=25655&vpn=TPQ-1000&manufacture=ANTEC

Mainboard - Tyan Tempest 5000X, dual CPU, dual PCI-E 16X, dual PCI-X, 32GB Max RAM, 6x SATA, 8X SAS, HW RAID, etc etc etc, $540
http://www.infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=233481

Processors - 2x Quad Core 2.33Ghz 1333FSB 8MB Cache xeon $1062
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=23746&vpn=BX80563E5345A&manufacture=Intel

Memory - 8GB of 2GB FBDIMM (4x 2GB) $560
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=24056&vpn=CT2KIT25672AF667&manufacture=CRUCIAL TECHNOLOGY

HD1 - 74GB Fujitsu 15,000RPM SAS $399
http://www.infonec.com/site/main.php?module=detail&id=17432

HD2 - 750GB Hitachi Deskstar SATA2 $215
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=25448&vpn=0A35154&manufacture=Hitachi

DVD burner -Pioneer 112 $40
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=22862&vpn=DVR-112DBK&manufacture=Pioneer

Video card - XFX 8800GTS 640MB $379
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=25865&vpn=PVT80GTHE4&manufacture=XFX

So it all comes to $3566.

Its expensive and above my budget but man I'd love to build it and play with this thing


8 core 2.33Ghz (yes its not super fast compared to 8core 3Ghz but its not dirty slow either
8GB memory with 4 slots free
Full tower case with 1000W PSU
Dual layer 16x DVD burner
2x HD, 74GB 15K SAS as boot and 750GB 7200 RPM SATA for data
8800GTS video with 640MB RAM
6x SATA II ports
8x SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) ports
8 channel audio
8 USB 2.0
2 Firewire 400
Dual gigabit
Hardware raid support built in on both SATA and SAS

 

[zap2]

The people who keep arguing they can do the same work on an iMac or MB probably also like to buy their rock climbing gear from WalMart

I'll give you the MacBook is slower, but the iMac can kick some arse, ignoring gaming, that 2.8Ghz is fast!

 

[ffakr]

8 core 2.33Ghz (yes its not super fast compared to 8core 3Ghz but its not dirty slow either
8GB memory with 4 slots free
Full tower case with 1000W PSU
Dual layer 16x DVD burner
2x HD, 74GB 15K SAS as boot and 750GB 7200 RPM SATA for data
8800GTS video with 640MB RAM
6x SATA II ports
8x SAS (Serial Attached SCSI) ports
8 channel audio
8 USB 2.0
2 Firewire 400
Dual gigabit
Hardware raid support built in on both SATA and SAS

Don't get me wrong.. I understand your post is about 'boy I'd like to build one of these' but it brings up an interesting topic.

I've got a sys admin who had done stuff like build machines of this nature for work. Worse yet, why build a server with ECC when you can just build a Fast desktop and use it as a server??

I have to remind him, and others like this.. who do you call when it breaks? Who ships the replacement part and how long does it take to get it?
The moron built his own backup server an regardless of my warnings, didn't buy duplicate parts. It was down for at least a week because he had to order a new power supply AFTER it died and the part was on back order. I think it was a Xeon or Opteron PS with some extra pins so he couldn't pick up any generic Powersupply for it.

It's always tempting to try and go cheap. It's always tempting to build your own toys.. but there's a down side depending on the application of the toy.

 

[Freyqq]

Don't get me wrong.. I understand your post is about 'boy I'd like to build one of these' but it brings up an interesting topic.

I've got a sys admin who had done stuff like build machines of this nature for work. Worse yet, why build a server with ECC when you can just build a Fast desktop and use it as a server??

I have to remind him, and others like this.. who do you call when it breaks? Who ships the replacement part and how long does it take to get it?
The moron built his own backup server an regardless of my warnings, didn't buy duplicate parts. It was down for at least a week because he had to order a new power supply AFTER it died and the part was on back order. I think it was a Xeon or Opteron PS with some extra pins so he couldn't pick up any generic Powersupply for it.

It's always tempting to try and go cheap. It's always tempting to build your own toys.. but there's a down side depending on the application of the toy.

i fail to see your point. If the power supply in a mac died, it would require time on the phone with tech support to convince them that it is broken and then it would take at least a week to mail it into apple, have them replace it, and send it back. If you built your own computer..at least you could go to a multitude of stores and buy a replacement part that day or order it online yourself. I see this was a custom part, but the principle is the same..

You can build a quality machine yourself. All you have to do is buy quality parts.

 

[contoursvt]

Well a server would be a different animal than a workstation IMO.

For servers, I'd stick with HP Proliant but workstations for a home based business or even just a home computer, I think is fine if its custom built as long as its for yourself and you're prepared to support it (which of course if I built the box I would do so).

I would never recommend a home built machine for anyone non technical or anything mission critical because if it breaks, it goes back to the person who built it I dont wanna support anyone but myself.

Having said that, I'm typing right now on a Q6600 quad core PC running Vista64. Its got SCSI drives, 4Gigs RAM and a half decent video card. I enjoyed building it and I'm really happy with the performance. My G4 is still kicking around as my secondary machine

 

[ffakr]

i fail to see your point. If the power supply in a mac died, it would require time on the phone with tech support to convince them that it is broken and then it would take at least a week to mail it into apple, have them replace it, and send it back. If you built your own computer..at least you could go to a multitude of stores and buy a replacement part that day or order it online yourself. I see this was a custom part, but the principle is the same..

You can build a quality machine yourself. All you have to do is buy quality parts.

You fail to see my point because a) you don't work in enterprise or b) you shouldn't work in enterprise.
;-P

If I used a Mac Pro as a server, I would put it into a role that was redundant or not critical. I would also not call Apple and convince them my part was broken, I'd pull it for the campus Apple tech so he could order the part. Apple isn't always fast but it shouldn't take me a week for a power supply.

My Point was about the larger issue of building high end systems. People don't typically build quad core Xeon machines for home. They build them for work because they have small budgets, and often they think they can impress the boss by saving $500-$1000.
As I mentioned, I understand the post was about 'gee, I'd like to build one of those' but I posted about a larger issue.

The thing is, an 8 core Xeon is a workstation or a server. Apple is exceptional in that they don't offer real workstation grade warranty support for the Mac Pros even though they are clearly workstations. Any other vendor selling 2 socket Xeons will offer a workstation/server grade warranty with usually starts at expedited parts depot as a bare minimum.. usually next business day is the minimum service level.

The point that you fail to get is, when you're considering building a big bad ass 8 core system.. think twice before you do it for work. There are advantages to getting a box from a single vendor with real service contract.

What happens in 2 years when that dead part you need is obsolete or at least not in stock? What if that dead powersupply isn't a basic ATX and it burns out on you? Dual CPU boards tend to use non-standard ATX power, like "EPS12V Ver 2.0" & AMD "ATXGES" standards. You can't buy those at best buy.

ffakr.

 

[Freyqq]

You fail to see my point because a) you don't work in enterprise or b) you shouldn't work in enterprise.
;-P

If I used a Mac Pro as a server, I would put it into a role that was redundant or not critical. I would also not call Apple and convince them my part was broken, I'd pull it for the campus Apple tech so he could order the part. Apple isn't always fast but it shouldn't take me a week for a power supply.

My Point was about the larger issue of building high end systems. People don't typically build quad core Xeon machines for home. They build them for work because they have small budgets, and often they think they can impress the boss by saving $500-$1000.
As I mentioned, I understand the post was about 'gee, I'd like to build one of those' but I posted about a larger issue.

The thing is, an 8 core Xeon is a workstation or a server. Apple is exceptional in that they don't offer real workstation grade warranty support for the Mac Pros even though they are clearly workstations. Any other vendor selling 2 socket Xeons will offer a workstation/server grade warranty with usually starts at expedited parts depot as a bare minimum.. usually next business day is the minimum service level.

The point that you fail to get is, when you're considering building a big bad ass 8 core system.. think twice before you do it for work. There are advantages to getting a box from a single vendor with real service contract.

What happens in 2 years when that dead part you need is obsolete or at least not in stock? What if that dead powersupply isn't a basic ATX and it burns out on you? Dual CPU boards tend to use non-standard ATX power, like "EPS12V Ver 2.0" & AMD "ATXGES" standards. You can't buy those at best buy.

ffakr.

most parts have their own warranties with the manufacturer

anyways, you agreed with me in saying that apple in particular doesn't handle part replacement for mac pros as would be appropriate in a setting that you described. Also, both of these systems described would not function well as servers anyways. Servers are different than desktops and workstations.

also, the purpose of the thread in general was about home use desktops. I have no opinion on corporate use.

 

[ffakr]

most parts have their own warranties with the manufacturer

anyways, you agreed with me in saying that apple in particular doesn't handle part replacement for mac pros as would be appropriate in a setting that you described. Also, both of these systems described would not function well as servers anyways. Servers are different than desktops and workstations.

also, the purpose of the thread in general was about home use desktops. I have no opinion on corporate use.

I agree.
.. except that workstations are generally treated like servers. Real "workstations" in the PC world have 4x24x7 support contracts if you want to pay for it. Apple wants to have it both ways. They want to sell big bad ass "Pro" machines but they don't want to offer real support contracts.

I suspect this is mainly because all roads leave back to Apple for support. Dell provides 4 hour support all over the country by subcontracting to any Tom, Dick, or Harry who wants to pass an "A+" quality test to become a Dell certified support shop.
Apple's just the ultimate control freak. They'd probably offer 4 hour support contracts on any piece of hardware if they had apple techs stationed all over the nation.

ffakr.

 

[TheMonarch]

I think Apple's biggest problem with their computers as a whole are the graphics cards. They are a complete joke.

All of them.

Seriously, graphics cards aren't just for gaming as everyone seems to assume, but there a many people who rely on the graphics capabilities just as much as the graphics designer who handles multi-GB relies on raw CPU power.

Currently there is no Mac that can be built that can be classified as 'Pro' in the 3D imaging department.

Even their $1600+ add-on graphics card, seemingly the only 'Pro' graphics solution for the Mac can't even render shadows properly in industry standard software such as Maya. That leaves those who want an accurate real-time render in their viewport, or don't have $1600 for a graphics card alone to use the consumer-based cards which are so pathetically behind [but can render properly].

Before anyone says that it may not be Apple's fault, and that its Nvidia's drivers [I don't know if thats the case, nor should the consumer have to worry about that], it still does not change the fact that a 'Pro' solution does not exist for the Mac in the 3D imaging department. People don't realize how important graphical capabilities are and what a huge role they play in other things besides gaming.

Yet lots of Mac people dismiss graphics as the 'only thing' the Apple lags behind, and only gamers obsess about graphics, and that it's not Apple's target market.