MP All Models The Mac Pro Paradox

[mattspace]

I'd say this is a view divorced from the popular perception of Apple, but I don't really see the point in arguing it further. This thread is filled with people who can't fathom the idea that most people don't value or like the exact same things they do, and that Apple should nonetheless cater to them specifically.

If apple won't, they should let someone else, who will, while they still have the option to set the terms. It's not a given that their current model will be allowed to continue indefinitely, and they are an inherently black-swan-fragile company.

And, the popular perception of Apple, is almost certainly wrong enough, in enough ways, that it can be disregarded. Apple is worth all the money in the world, yet that value derives almost exclusively through sales of products whose primary sales point is some aspect of exclusiveness to another Apple software or service. That can be taken away from the company at the stroke of a pen.

 

[Schismz]

I think Apple is like a black swan shooting Reality Distortion Beams (and lasers) out of its eyes and breathing fire, gliding across a rainbow made out magical & revolutionary pixie dust, unicorn horns with slots, and a f--kton of superglue.. just trying to get home; back to a trillion+ dollar market cap while the world burns and zombie apocalypse engulfs the earth.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

 

[defjam]

I'd say this is a view divorced from the popular perception of Apple, but I don't really see the point in arguing it further. This thread is filled with people who can't fathom the idea that most people don't value or like the exact same things they do, and that Apple should nonetheless cater to them specifically.

You mean people who wanted an internally expandable, headless, tower Mac Pro instead of the cylindrical Mac Pro Apple released in 2013? If you want to roll over and permit Apple to dictate to you what you need by all means. However it's inappropriate to fault those who will not. You have us to thank for the 2019 Mac Pro.

 

[skippermonkey]

I think Apple is like a black swan shooting Reality Distortion Beams (and lasers) out of its eyes and breathing fire, gliding across a rainbow made out magical & revolutionary pixie dust, unicorn horns with slots, and a f--kton of superglue.. just trying to get home; back to a trillion+ dollar market cap while the world burns and zombie apocalypse engulfs the earth.

Now there's a film I'd pay to see.

 

[mattspace]

You mean people who wanted an internally expandable, headless, tower Mac Pro instead of the cylindrical Mac Pro Apple released in 2013? If you want to roll over and permit Apple to dictate to you what you need by all means. However it's inappropriate to fault those who will not. You have us to thank for the 2019 Mac Pro.

...but non-expandable appliance computers are the future, they're inevitable, all computers will be like that going forward, stop wasting your breath demanding Apple produce a slotbox because they're not about that any more, everyone will soon be making computers like Apple, etc etc etc.

So much bullsh#t was expended here on justifying how the 2013 Mac Pro represented a permanent paradigm shift, not only for Apple, but for the industry in general, and it was a nonevent of a machine - a single generation with a single model of a design, that'll bugger off into the annals of failed irrelevant garbage products, with the Ford Pinto, Sinclair's electric car, and everything Dyson has ever produced.

If there's one thing the 2019 shows, it's that past and present is no indication for the future. They're bringing freaking mouse pointers to iOS - this idea that because Apple doesn't do a consumer upgradable tower now, means that they never will, doesn't even match the evidence of the company's current behaviour, let alone let alone some radical future track.

They fixed the laptop keyboard design, they're bringing mice and trackpads to iOS, they built the most slotty slotbox they've ever built, on what planet does this align with the "they'll never make something other than the current range of form factor paradigms"?

 

[defjam]

They fixed the laptop keyboard design, they're bringing mice and trackpads to iOS, they built the most slotty slotbox they've ever built, on what planet does this align with the "they'll never make something other than the current range of form factor paradigms"?

That would be the planet where people just settle for what is given to them. In this world people purchase a Mini and attached eGPUs and other expansion option through adapters and cables. IMO I suspect there's more demand for an xMac type of system than a 2019 Mac Pro type of system. The reason people aren't buying such a system is because Apple doesn't offer such a system.

 

[fuchsdh]

You mean people who wanted an internally expandable, headless, tower Mac Pro instead of the cylindrical Mac Pro Apple released in 2013? If you want to roll over and permit Apple to dictate to you what you need by all means. However it's inappropriate to fault those who will not. You have us to thank for the 2019 Mac Pro.

Those same people are complaining because Apple didn't give them the same cheesegrater back. They made a high-end workstation instead.

Likewise, all Apple did with the 16" MBP is fix the keyboards. They didn't remove the Touch Bar, they didn't add back USB-A, or HDMI, or SD card slots. They continue to reduce the number of ports on their machines.

It's not "rolling over" to realize that Apple isn't particularly interested in your product segment. It's called actually recognizing reality.

...but non-expandable appliance computers are the future, they're inevitable, all computers will be like that going forward, stop wasting your breath demanding Apple produce a slotbox because they're not about that any more, everyone will soon be making computers like Apple, etc etc etc.

So much bullsh#t was expended here on justifying how the 2013 Mac Pro represented a permanent paradigm shift, not only for Apple, but for the industry in general, and it was a nonevent of a machine - a single generation with a single model of a design, that'll bugger off into the annals of failed irrelevant garbage products, with the Ford Pinto, Sinclair's electric car, and everything Dyson has ever produced.

If there's one thing the 2019 shows, it's that past and present is no indication for the future. They're bringing freaking mouse pointers to iOS - this idea that because Apple doesn't do a consumer upgradable tower now, means that they never will, doesn't even match the evidence of the company's current behaviour, let alone let alone some radical future track.

They fixed the laptop keyboard design, they're bringing mice and trackpads to iOS, they built the most slotty slotbox they've ever built, on what planet does this align with the "they'll never make something other than the current range of form factor paradigms"?

No one is saying "never". They're saying "maybe if Apple doesn't do something for twenty-five years, it's unlikely to happen, so you're better off exploring other options if that's your sticking point as a consumer."

 

[defjam]

Those same people are complaining because Apple didn't give them the same cheesegrater back. They made a high-end workstation instead.

They made a high-end workstation because people like me did not accept the limitations of the 2013 Mac Pro. You can thank people such as myself for advocating for something more capable.

It's not "rolling over" to realize that Apple isn't particularly interested in your product segment. It's called actually recognizing reality.

You mean the reality that no one needs slots? That no one needs internal expandability? That no one needs a higher performing system than the iMac? These are all arguments we heard from people saying the exact same thing you are currently saying when the 2013 Mac Pro was released. This has been pointed out by several people yet you persist in pretending it didn't happen. If people roll over and avoid voicing their dissatisfaction then Apple has no reason to reconsider their offerings. If you are currently an owner of a 2019 Mac Pro you have people like me to thank for it.

 

[mattspace]

No one is saying "never". They're saying "maybe if Apple doesn't do something for twenty-five years, it's unlikely to happen, so you're better off exploring other options if that's your sticking point as a consumer."

Apple keep talking about 3D, and how the Mac Pro is great for 3D. I've been in gamedev studios that are producing exclusive games for Apple Arcade - there's not a mac to be seen. There's not a Xeon workstation to be seen, there's not a Quadro or Firepro to be seen.

All of this stuff is done on "Workstations" based on consumer processors, and gaming GPUs, because, surprise surprise, gaming development engines are best served by gaming-spec hardware, and these companies are price-sensitive for their gear, and no gamedev company is going to build out on iMacs, or eGPU-based mac minis.

 

[mikas]

It's the same for architectural renderings today. CPU and GPU power is so much cheaper to utilize on the other side now. Our clients do run tender competitions for about everything nowadays. Mac Pro is nice, OS X is still nice too (waiting for Catalina to behave though). But unfortunately, not nice enough for the price of it. That makes me kind of sad, because I have been, and still am, a fan of OS X.

 

[koyoot]

I'd say this is a view divorced from the popular perception of Apple, but I don't really see the point in arguing it further. This thread is filled with people who can't fathom the idea that most people don't value or like the exact same things they do, and that Apple should nonetheless cater to them specifically.

Neither Mac Pro, neither HEDT machines, that are being discussed in this thread are for "Most People".

 

[fuchsdh]

They made a high-end workstation because people like me did not accept the limitations of the 2013 Mac Pro. You can thank people such as myself for advocating for something more capable.


You mean the reality that no one needs slots? That no one needs internal expandability? That no one needs a higher performing system than the iMac? These are all arguments we heard from people saying the exact same thing you are currently saying when the 2013 Mac Pro was released. This has been pointed out by several people yet you persist in pretending it didn't happen. If people roll over and avoid voicing their dissatisfaction then Apple has no reason to reconsider their offerings. If you are currently an owner of a 2019 Mac Pro you have people like me to thank for it.

You must get awfully tired fighting all those straw men.

I'm not saying "no one" needs any of that. That fewer and fewer people do is the reality.

You're the one having an existential meltdown about "rolling over" about a tool you use to get work done. Calm yourself.

Apple keep talking about 3D, and how the Mac Pro is great for 3D. I've been in the gamedev studios that are producing exclusive games for Apple Arcade - there's not a mac to be seen. There's not a Xeon workstation to be seen, there's not a Quadro or Firepro to be seen.

All of this stuff is done on "Workstations" based on consumer processors, and gaming GPUs, because, surprise surprise, gaming development engines are best served by gaming-spec hardware, and these companies are price-sensitive for their gear, and no gamedev company is going to build out on iMacs, or eGPU-based mac minis.

...and I don't see again, how this connects with my comment. Where did I bring up 3D?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You must get awfully tired fighting all those straw men.

I'm not saying "no one" needs any of that. That fewer and fewer people do is the reality.

You're the one having an existential meltdown about "rolling over" about a tool you use to get work done. Calm yourself.



...and I don't see again, how this connects with my comment. Where did I bring up 3D?

Yea this "this is your reality, deal with it" argument is a loser. Apple snapped right to when people told them to stuff their DVD drives and changed right quick to CD burners, and in fact when all in with the rip/burn campaign. They also eventually caved and put a bullet in the trashcan Mac Pro. The difference was there were a too many apologists telling us "that's youre lot, deal with it" or "it aint for you" to drown out the complaints.

Apple can and has changed it's tune in the past. The key is having enough people bitch about something so they are motivated to do it. All apologies justifying their mistakes, hampers the chances of that happening.

If more people complain they want an entry level Mac Pro and all the losers that were wrong about the trashcan and all their tired old excuses use their whining for good instead of apple apologies, we might just get what we want.

 

[defjam]

I'm not saying "no one" needs any of that. That fewer and fewer people do is the reality.

Who are you to make such a determination? More importantly why should I care?

You're the one having an existential meltdown about "rolling over" about a tool you use to get work done. Calm yourself.

Please, stop with the hyperbole. There's no meltdown, just tired of you telling others what their needs are. You don't need an xMac type of system? Who am I to tell you otherwise? If I need an xMac type of system who are you to tell me otherwise?

 

[Schismz]

So much bullsh#t was expended here on justifying how the 2013 Mac Pro represented a permanent paradigm shift, not only for Apple, but for the industry in general, and it was a nonevent of a machine - a single generation with a single model of a design, that'll bugger off into the annals of failed irrelevant garbage products, with the Ford Pinto, Sinclair's electric car, and everything Dyson has ever produced.

Maybe not. Maybe... they'll wait a while, and then suddenly, one day, it'll seem like doing something which was a complete failure, is a brilliant idea now! They did it multiple times with The Cube! World was never ready for Steve Jobs Borg-like cubical motif.

The Cube! Remember this? If you blinked you missed it:

Power Mac G4 Cube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That was Take II, and started over here:

NeXTcube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Trashcan was a uniquely awful design. But never say never, there is still hope, in 2030 the Trashcan may seem like a great idea to somebody at Apple and they'll re-introduce the Trashcan (with LID!) because this time it'll be totally different.

...

Anyway, yah, Apple *does* listen or I wouldn't be typing this from a 7,1. I never thought I'd see another Cheesegrater, but there it is. "You wanted a Cheesegrater, okay, there ya go!" But <checking watch> it took them a decade to listen. And obviously the only people they're listening to are those who wanted Moar EvErYTHING! ...and don't care what it costs. Because they really made 0 attempt to keep the price down. As has been mentioned here many times, the new Mac Pro is incredibly over-engineered heavy metal sculpture. They seem to have decided it's their flagship/supercar model whose greatest value is halo effect. Which obviously means they intend to sell very few units. And they know this, they're not dumb. They don't expect to sell a lot of Mac Pros.

I'm not touching the whole xMac thing, but just being real, you can scroll back through this very forum for myriad messages complaining about price of Mac Pro circa 5,1 and earlier eras, and people mentioning their desire for a non Xeon, non ECC RAM box with perhaps fewer slots. <-- that particular idea is something Apple seems to be deaf to.

...

Apple makes enormous margins in comparison to the rest of the industry. As a shareholder, that's wonderful. As a consumer, that's too bad.

In conclusion: I'm glad Mac Pro got green light when stock was hitting all time highs and everything was going well. There's nobody who would green light it during the current atmosphere.

 

[fuchsdh]

Yea this "this is your reality, deal with it" argument is a loser. Apple snapped right to when people told them to stuff their DVD drives and changed right quick to CD burners, and in fact when all in with the rip/burn campaign. They also eventually caved and put a bullet in the trashcan Mac Pro. The difference was there were a too many apologists telling us "that's youre lot, deal with it" or "it aint for you" to drown out the complaints.

Apple can and has changed it's tune in the past. The key is having enough people bitch about something so they are motivated to do it. All apologies justifying their mistakes, hampers the chances of that happening.

If more people complain they want an entry level Mac Pro and all the losers that were wrong about the trashcan and all their tired old excuses use their whining for good instead of apple apologies, we might just get what we want.

Spoiler alert: there aren't enough of you to bitch about something. But I'm done with the circular arguments. We can make a wager on that, otherwise I've said my piece and don't need to get the wonder twins blaming me for not supporting their windmill tilting.

 

[defjam]

Spoiler alert: there aren't enough of you to bitch about something. But I'm done with the circular arguments. We can make a wager on that, otherwise I've said my piece and don't need to get the wonder twins blaming me for not supporting their windmill tilting.

Let me ask you this: Do you own and / or use a 2019 Mac Pro?

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Spoiler alert: there aren't enough of you to bitch about something. But I'm done with the circular arguments. We can make a wager on that, otherwise I've said my piece and don't need to get the wonder twins blaming me for not supporting their windmill tilting.

Wow, again, SAME ARGUMENT made about the traschcan Mac. Thanks, and buh-bye.
[automerge]1584478262[/automerge]

Maybe not. Maybe... they'll wait a while, and then suddenly, one day, it'll seem like doing something which was a complete failure, is a brilliant idea now! They did it multiple times with The Cube! World was never ready for Steve Jobs Borg-like cubical motif.

The Cube! Remember this? If you blinked you missed it:

Power Mac G4 Cube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That was Take II, and started over here:

NeXTcube - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Trashcan was a uniquely awful design. But never say never, there is still hope, in 2030 the Trashcan may seem like a great idea to somebody at Apple and they'll re-introduce the Trashcan (with LID!) because this time it'll be totally different.

...

Anyway, yah, Apple *does* listen or I wouldn't be typing this from a 7,1. I never thought I'd see another Cheesegrater, but there it is. "You wanted a Cheesegrater, okay, there ya go!" But <checking watch> it took them a decade to listen. And obviously the only people they're listening to are those who wanted Moar EvErYTHING! ...and don't care what it costs. Because they really made 0 attempt to keep the price down. As has been mentioned here many times, the new Mac Pro is incredibly over-engineered heavy metal sculpture. They seem to have decided it's their flagship/supercar model whose greatest value is halo effect. Which obviously means they intend to sell very few units. And they know this, they're not dumb. They don't expect to sell a lot of Mac Pros.

I'm not touching the whole xMac thing, but just being real, you can scroll back through this very forum for myriad messages complaining about price of Mac Pro circa 5,1 and earlier eras, and people mentioning their desire for a non Xeon, non ECC RAM box with perhaps fewer slots. <-- that particular idea is something Apple seems to be deaf to.

...

Apple makes enormous margins in comparison to the rest of the industry. As a shareholder, that's wonderful. As a consumer, that's too bad.

In conclusion: I'm glad Mac Pro got green light when stock was hitting all time highs and everything was going well. There's nobody who would green light it during the current atmosphere.

There was also a pink cube at Pixar which was a dud.

 

[Abazigal]

You mean people who wanted an internally expandable, headless, tower Mac Pro instead of the cylindrical Mac Pro Apple released in 2013? If you want to roll over and permit Apple to dictate to you what you need by all means. However it's inappropriate to fault those who will not. You have us to thank for the 2019 Mac Pro.

So let me get this straight - you all want credit for supposedly getting Apple to release a product which by your very own admission does not suit any of your needs? The very Mac Pro that you are all criticising here for being too expensive and over-engineered for your needs?

 

[defjam]

So let me get this straight - you all want credit for supposedly getting Apple to release a product which by your very own admission does not suit any of your needs? The very Mac Pro that you are all criticising here for being too expensive and over-engineered for your needs?

You don't have it straight. What we're saying is that had people like us just accepted what Apple was offering then Apple likely would not have developed the 2019 Mac Pro.

 

[Abazigal]

You don't have it straight. What we're saying is that had people like us just accepted what Apple was offering then Apple likely would not have developed the 2019 Mac Pro.

Ultimately, Apple is constrained by their development resources and how many problems they focus on solving. They are choosing to focus on higher-end more expensive problems, because they think the needs for lower-end problems are already mostly served by their existing product lines.

There is also a larger, albeit tangential point to be made about this though. Apple got to where it is today by offering people what they didn’t know they wanted, rather than what they said they wanted. Sometimes, this means they read the user wrong, but Apple does seem to have more hits than misses overall.

Depending on how one looks at it, releasing the 2019 Mac Pro can be interpreted as Apple capitulating to a small group of more conservative users who desire not innovation, but familiarity. Which goes against Apple’s entire DNA. And ultimately jeopardises everything that made them great in the first place.

I get that a broader discussion of how Apple uses design to marginalise industries might seem academic or insensitive to a group of people who do genuinely need powerful Macs for their livelihood, but I do hope that Apple doesn’t capitulate any more than they have to.

Continue to solicit feedback, but channel it towards creating more products that customers didn’t know they wanted. Not merely what they claim to want.

That’s the Apple I know and love.

 

[defjam]

Ultimately, Apple is constrained by their development resources and how many problems they focus on solving. They are choosing to focus on higher-end more expensive problems, because they think the needs for lower-end problems are already mostly served by their existing product lines.

Apple has more than sufficient resources to develop and sell an xMac type of system.

There is also a larger, albeit tangential point to be made about this though. Apple got to where it is today by offering people what they didn’t know they wanted, rather than what they said they wanted. Sometimes, this means they read the user wrong, but Apple does seem to have more hits than misses overall.

Depending on how one looks at it, releasing the 2019 Mac Pro can be interpreted as Apple capitulating to a small group of more conservative users who desire not innovation, but familiarity. Which goes against Apple’s entire DNA.

I get that a broader discussion of how Apple uses design to marginalise industries might seem academic or insensitive to a group of people who do genuinely need powerful Macs for their livelihood, but I do hope that Apple doesn’t capitulate any more than they have to.

Continue to solicit feedback, but channel it towards creating more products that customers didn’t know they wanted. Not merely what they claim to want.

That’s the Apple I know and love.

All that is fine and dandy but it won't stop me from "asking" for an xMac type of system. Furthermore I would appreciate it if people would stop telling me what my needs are.

 

[mattspace]

...and I don't see again, how this connects with my comment. Where did I bring up 3D?

You're asserting a product solution doesn't have a market large enough to be worth Apple pursuing, well then they shouldn't be in a business that sells content which depends on that very solution to create it.

It flies in the face of the whole "owning and controlling every part of the system" ethos.

I would further suggest that the market for a consumer-grade slot-upgradable creative workstation, the class of machine that would be called a "gaming PC" if it had coloured lights in its fans & ram, is greater both in numbers, and in dollar value, than the market for Xeon workstations.

But economic arguments only count when they support an existing decision - what was the economic argument for spending billions on self-driving car tech, on gold watches, on a giant campus which it seems everyone who works there hates with a passion.

The 2019 Mac Pro is a reputational halo product, not a economic case, because Apple were butthurt at everyone laughing at them for being unable to make a workstation.

We should point and laugh some more, at their inability to make a consumer-grade upgradable tower, because it seems the only thing that moves the needle on them these days, is when their fragile corporate ego is dented (or they're threatened with regulation).

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple listens to exactly what everybody said they wanted, which was the Cheesegrater.

I think where I’d differ with your statement is that Apple didn’t listen to “everybody”. They listened to the pros they invited to their offices. SOME of what those pros wanted may have aligned with some of what “everybody” wanted, but the people Apple invited wanted more, and that’s what Apple made. I think it’s a mistake to say that Apple was listening in any way to anyone outside of the small group of folks they invited.

What makes pros worth keeping.

Because they’re willing to pay ungodly sums for what Apple is selling? I mean, Apple IS a for profit company

NEVER BURN BRIDGES!

Yeah, Steve Jobs, don’t go burning bridges with your Final Cut Pro 7 users! Generally not burning bridges is a good strategy, but Apple, even under Steve Jobs, was known for strategically burning bridges.

and maybe if we dont all make up tortured apologies for apple not so doing, they just might.

I don’t think Apple’s going, “You know, I think it’s about time we made that cheaper Mac Pro... wait... I just read a tortured apology on macrumors. Let’s hold off for awhile and see how this shakes out.”

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I think where I’d differ with your statement is that Apple didn’t listen to “everybody”. They listened to the pros they invited to their offices. SOME of what those pros wanted may have aligned with some of what “everybody” wanted, but the people Apple invited wanted more, and that’s what Apple made. I think it’s a mistake to say that Apple was listening in any way to anyone outside of the small group of folks they invited.

Because they’re willing to pay ungodly sums for what Apple is selling? I mean, Apple IS a for profit company

Yeah, Steve Jobs, don’t go burning bridges with your Final Cut Pro 7 users! Generally not burning bridges is a good strategy, but Apple, even under Steve Jobs, was known for strategically burning bridges.

I don’t think Apple’s going, “You know, I think it’s about time we made that cheaper Mac Pro... wait... I just read a tortured apology on macrumors. Let’s hold off for awhile and see how this shakes out.”

You can’t have it both ways. The Mac Pro is irrelevant revenue vs rest of Apple so it doesn’t matter, but conveniently Mac pros make them a lot of money.

As for jobs burning bridges he had the charisma to burn them and seduce people into rebuilding that. Cook and company are no Steve Jobs. Also, Apple came groveling back to the pros after a miststep with Fcp7 And the trash can Mac, proving the opposite of your opinion...that Apple can be course corrected when enough people hold them to account on their missteps rather than apologize for them.

As for you not thinking it’s going to happen, thanks for recycling the same failed trash can argument for the millionth time on here.