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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,657
12,585
...and they're not going to release M4 iPads when the MacBook Pros are still on M3... oh, wait, they just did!
Fair point, but then again everyone knew M4 is coming within the year or so. A base RAM upgrade is different kettle of fish.

Why not? These aren't retail chips that Apple bought off the shelf at Best Buy - and they don't say "6GB" in large friendly letters.
The chip name - which is printed right on the chip - corresponds to a specific RAM capacity.

It's not that the ideas aren't all quite plausible, or that it's unlikely that we'll see 12GB MacBooks - its just that some people are stating "M4 Macs will have 12GB" as if it were a proven fact when it's still all just speculation on incomplete information.
I agree there is zero proof. However, I also agree with others that there is a strong chance of 12 GB next time around. I used to say on this forum that Apple would go to 12 GB base by 2025 or 2026. However, the revelation that the iPad Pro 8 GB is actually 12 GB (or at least some of them are) has made me update that prediction to 2025 (or even Q4 2024).

The main thing I wonder about though is whether it will just be the MacBook Pro, or if it will be both the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air. I'm hoping for the latter too though, cuz that's what I want to buy. I have zero interest in the MacBook Pro.
 

Chuckeee

macrumors 68040
Aug 18, 2023
3,010
8,635
Southern California
It really comes down to Apple estimated impact to low end Mac sales income. Will 8GB machines have such limited performance there predicted sales will be sharply curtailed? Potential loss of income from the sale of memory upgrades? Increased sales from the lowest end configuration having more than 8GB? Potential negative impact on sales higher end Mac configurations (e.g, iPad Pro, MacBook Air, Mac mini capabilities are good enough that MacBook Pro and Mac Studio sales suffer)?

The actual cost of RAM BOM is irrelevant. The impact of AI would be minimal, as long as 8GB is perceived as sufficient for low end mac users (and Apple’s PR is certainly leaning that way). Historically, Apple has been not strongly influenced by Window manufacturer’s configuration choices.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,657
12,585
It really comes down to Apple estimated impact to low end Mac sales income. Will 8GB machines have such limited performance there predicted sales will be sharply curtailed? Potential loss of income from the sale of memory upgrades? Increased sales from the lowest end configuration having more than 8GB? Potential negative impact on sales higher end Mac configurations (e.g, iPad Pro, MacBook Air, Mac mini capabilities are good enough that MacBook Pro and Mac Studio sales suffer)?

The actual cost of RAM BOM is irrelevant. The impact of AI would be minimal, as long as 8GB is perceived as sufficient for low end mac users (and Apple’s PR is certainly leaning that way). Historically, Apple has been not strongly influenced by Window manufacturer’s configuration choices.
The other clue is that 8 GB is no longer the only config available as a standard config in mainstream retail. With M3, the standard config MacBook Air includes both 8 GB and 16 GB models.

IOW, Apple now believes 8 GB alone is no longer sufficient for the MacBook Air, for even just the Best Buy crowd.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,982
8,404
The main thing I wonder about though is whether it will just be the MacBook Pro, or if it will be both the MacBook Pro and the MacBook Air. I'm hoping for the latter too though, cuz that's what I want to buy. I have zero interest in the MacBook Pro.
Well, when the M2 came out, the M1 Air was kept as the entry level $999 MacBook. Ditto when the M3 came out - the current entry level MacBook is still the M2 Air. So if history repeats, even if the new M4 Air comes out with 12 or 16GB, the entry-level model will be the current M3 MBA (or, maybe, even the M2 still), probably still with 8G and still a pretty good machine for people who just want something basic - if you're paying $100 extra for the latest Air then you presumably want a bit more than "basic" so 12GB would be reasonable. It would have been reasonable 3 years ago...

As for the Mac Mini (glances at thread topic...) the volume is probably too low (by Apple's standards) to support that sort of product overlap - and it will likely get the same SoC package as one of the MBA or MBP models. If Apple bother with a M4 Mini (again, glances at thread topic...)

The actual cost of RAM BOM is irrelevant.
It's irrelevant to the upgrade prices. Has been for years, even when the upgrades were bog-standard DDR4 sticks.

Apple will still want to minimise BOM costs and at some point the smallest RAM chips will become disproportionately expensive through lack of demand. That's one possible reason for the "12GB" iPad Pro as well as the whole half-bandwidth SSD thing with the M2 machines. There are also economies of scale - Apple have to manufacture a different SoC model for each permutation of RAM, GPU cores and CPU cores they offer, which will have expenses. They'd probably reduce costs by only making 16 and 24GB versions of the M4 - but if they can sell enough $200 upgrades to come out on top, that's not going to happen.

The real problem with Apple's base RAM/Storage specs is not that 8GB/256GB isn't enough for many people's requirements, but that the cost of upgrading for those who do need more is disproportionate. OTOH, the processing power of the base M1/M2/M3 is more than many people need, and certainly up to some "creative" and development tasks which previously would have been impractical on Airs and low-end MBPs and Minis. It's just that if Apple charged a BOM-plus-reasonable-margin price for these upgrades they'd be a no-brainer bit of future proofing and it wouldn't be worth producing 8/256 models.

Historically, Apple has been not strongly influenced by Window manufacturer’s configuration choices.

Apple have had a nice honeymoon period with Apple Silicon, which put their power/performance ratio in another league for a while and made it very difficult to compare like-with-like with PC models. That's rapidly coming to a end - Intel and AMD are playing catch up and now MS has really put its weight behind the ARM-based Copilot+ systems, which are a lot more comparable to Apple Silicon (and the next generation will, doubtless, be even closer). They come with 16GB minimum.

The whole M4/iPad Pro launch and much of the WWDC keynote was strongly influenced by MS's Copilot+ launch. Even if you think that consumer-focussed AI is over-hyped, it's currently being used to sell computers to punters.

Apple have been stuck on 8GB of base RAM on the MBP & iMac for about 10 years (less on the Mini, but that was in limbo from 2014-2018) - which was reasonably competitive vs. Windows at the time, but is getting less defensible with each passing year, as is the $200-per-8GB upgrade rate (which has been in place since at least 2017). Now, the PC market is huge and a bit of reverse-bargain-hunting will always turn up someone advertising a 4/256 PC for $900 the majority of remotely comparable premium "ultrabook" PCs with LPDDR5x RAM or powerful SFFs at Mac-like prices either offer 16/512 as standard or significantly cheaper upgrades.

Which is fine if Apple restrict their target market to committed Apple users and kids who just want the logo to match their phone - but that's "next quarter" thinking which is going to lead to a stagnating and shrinking market. Try to persuade a PC user to switch to, say. a Mac mini and the conversation comes to a grinding halt when they find that getting what they see as a sensible amount of RAM and SSD - 16GB and 1TB - doubles the already-premium price.

Nor can Apple live in a bubble where Mac users act like iPhone users and only run Apple software (or third party skins on Apple frameworks) - even if Apple's AI offerings run fine in 8GB, people are going to want to run stuff from MS, Google etc. which - with 16GB becoming standard for AI apps on Windows - is only going to get more demanding. If a model needs x GB of RAM on Windows it will likely need x GB of RAM on MacOS.
 

madeirabhoy

macrumors 68000
Oct 26, 2012
1,671
620
The other clue is that 8 GB is no longer the only config available as a standard config in mainstream retail. With M3, the standard config MacBook Air includes both 8 GB and 16 GB models.

IOW, Apple now believes 8 GB alone is no longer sufficient for the MacBook Air, for even just the Best Buy crowd.

thats the way it should be. for me and id guess for a lot of people, the issue isnt the cost as much as immediate availability. when i bought my macbook i wanted to buy it that day. to get something custom with more ram or drive space id have to have waited probably a month (live on a small island). similarly when i bought my previous imac it was because one had died and i really needed it, so in both cases i was going round the shops asking 'what have you got in stock'.
 
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icemantx

macrumors 6502a
Mar 16, 2009
539
623
After 14 years, is it time for Apple to do something with the design of the Mac mini even if just something like a space black color or more ports? I would imagine being that sales are such as small portion of the overall Apple revenue stream and Mac sales as a whole, Apple has little incentive to change it. The one thing I wish they did to the mini is add at least 1 front USB C port and an SD card slot. I know the Mac Studio has those features, but I am not interested in upgrading to the Studio. Maybe one day...
 

azentropy

macrumors 601
Jul 19, 2002
4,134
5,655
Surprise
I still think the current mini form factor is just about perfect. However as an additional product, I’d like to see something like an AppleTV sized box with 4 TB ports (or 2 USB C and 2 TB) and nothing else. One of the ports would be for power (or dual use if connected to a display that can supply power). Sell it for around $450, I think it would be a game changer like the original mini was.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,657
12,585
I still think the current mini form factor is just about perfect. However as an additional product, I’d like to see something like an AppleTV sized box with 4 TB ports (or 2 USB C and 2 TB) and nothing else. One of the ports would be for power (or dual use if connected to a display that can supply power). Sell it for around $450, I think it would be a game changer like the original mini was.

MacRumors said:
The new ‌Mac mini‌ will be the first major design change to the machine since 2010, making it Apple's smallest ever desktop computer. The new ‌Mac mini‌ will apparently approach the size of an Apple TV, but it may be slightly taller

Apple is said to have tested at least three ‌Mac mini‌ models with at least three USB-C ports on the back, as well as an area for the power cable and an HDMI port. There will continue to be two versions of the ‌Mac mini‌: one with the standard M4 chip, similar to the ‌iPad Pro‌, and one with an M4 Pro chip.

I'm 100% sure it won't be US$450 though.
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,162
7,179
After 14 years, is it time for Apple to do something with the design of the Mac mini even if just something like a space black color or more ports? I would imagine being that sales are such as small portion of the overall Apple revenue stream and Mac sales as a whole, Apple has little incentive to change it. The one thing I wish they did to the mini is add at least 1 front USB C port and an SD card slot. I know the Mac Studio has those features, but I am not interested in upgrading to the Studio. Maybe one day...
your wish will come true
 

Cape Dave

macrumors 68020
Nov 16, 2012
2,381
1,676
Northeast
I'm glad to see that once again, the new Mac mini is almost certainly coming. It sounds interesting, as long as the new design doesn't impede performance or allow for a reasonable number of ports. My 2018 Intel I-7 mini is still performing admirably, but I'll want to take a good look at the re-design.
This thing will smoke your Intel so hard you will cry.
 

Corefile

macrumors 6502a
Sep 24, 2022
728
1,031
People on this thread have been clamoring for a Mini redesign for years so we might get a new Mini design, with 12GB of RAM by default, and it is released in 2024. Although we might not.
 

MayaUser

macrumors 68040
Nov 22, 2021
3,162
7,179
People on this thread have been clamoring for a Mini redesign for years so we might get a new Mini design, with 12GB of RAM by default, and it is released in 2024. Although we might not.
this time is for sure, Apple will release a new mac mini
 

Peter_M

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2018
275
320
Will it smoke my 64gb i7 Mini running demanding Windows 10 software in a 32gb VM at the same time as a bunch of Mac apps? ;)
For certain things, not really. Apple cut the maximum RAM in half, with their silicon line of Mac Minis. There are important use cases, where the Pro chips' CPU is sufficient (like audio and composing), but 32gb doesn't cut it when running larger projects with big sample libraries.

In these cases the smaller size of Mac Mini is very convenient, vs. the larger and more power-hungry GPU on the Max chips. But that wouldn't create enough product segmentation between the Mac Mini and Studio in Apple's eyes, I guess.

64gb RAM would be the perfect middle-tier amount for the Mac Mini, but Apple has always made these anti-consumer segmentations in their product lines. The Mac Mini's functionality has been unnecessarily limited, because of this.
 
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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,657
12,585
For certain things, not really. Apple cut the maximum RAM in half, with their silicon line of Mac Minis. There are important use cases, where the Pro chips' CPU is sufficient (like audio and composing), but 32gb doesn't cut it when running larger projects with big sample libraries.

In these cases the smaller size of Mac Mini is very convenient, vs. the larger and more power-hungry GPU on the Max chips. But that wouldn't create enough product segmentation between the Mac Mini and Studio in Apple's eyes, I guess.

64gb RAM would be the perfect middle-tier amount for the Mac Mini, but Apple has always made these anti-consumer segmentations in their product lines. The Mac Mini's functionality has been unnecessarily limited, because of this.
Those who truly need 64 GB in a Mac mini represent a really small market even in 2024, as most of that market would want a higher performance SoC anyway. That’s what the Mac Studio is for.

The lack of a 64 GB option for the Mac mini is pretty much irrelevant now that the Mac Studio is an option.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,982
8,404
Will it smoke my 64gb i7 Mini running demanding Windows 10 software
Probably not. ...but a PC running an AMD Threadripper or suchlike - that can run x86-64 code natively - almost certainly will. Right tool for the job etc... Meanwhile, a VM on a Mac will probably be good for running that one awkward Windows-only app that you need occasionally.

Apple made a decision with Apple Silicon - use it to make a better Mac, not a slightly less mediocre Windows PC.

You just can't get around that Apple cut the maximum RAM in half, with their Apple silicon line of Mac Minis.
Yes, that's an issue - even the 192GB max on the Studio Ultra is on the low side for high-end apps - as is the money Apple wants for even 32GB of RAM.

However, it does represent an engineering trade-off between speed, size and power - there are performance advantages to using low-power RAM, large memory bus bandwidth and mounting RAM directly on the package.

Also, Apple Silicon is a bit of a victim of its own success, in that the regular and 'pro' M1/2/3 are so capable, at the same sort of price point as i3/i5 machines from the Intel days, so people are looking to them for apps which would previously have demanded a higher-end Mac . Back in 2020 you'd be looking at i9 and higher-end discrete GPUs for heavy lifting - if not a Xeon-based Mac Pro (and probably not the entry level). The real modern equivalents are the Mx Max (for i9) and Ultra (for Xeon) - which come with correspondingly higher RAM capacities.

(What seems to be missing - esp. on the Mac Pro - is some sort of secondary external DDR5 RAM, maybe acting as swap, to prevent swapping to flash causing a bottleneck).

It's informative to price-compare i9 iMacs vs. Mac Studio + Studio Display combos. You do have to cross your fingers and pretend you were going to get your iMac RAM upgrade from Apple, but if you do that, the Studio Max + Display comes out suspiciously close to the top end i9 iMac upgraded to 32GB while the Studio Ultra combo compares pretty favourably to the 18 core Xeon iMac Pro.

It will be interesting to see how a new Mini/Studio range is composed: with the M3, the "cadence" of the regular, pro and max SoCs changed significantly, with the pro becoming a unique die rather than a Max with some GPU and RAM bandwidth "chopped off" but the same CPU configuration - the Max is now all-round faster than the Pro, with more CPU cores and a lower proportion of "efficiency" vs. "performance" cores. Meanwhile the M3 Ultra never appeared (is the ultrafusion idea dead, or didi it just skip a generation?) - if there's an "ultra" replacement it might be a whole new chip aimed at the Mac Pro market rather than two Max dies, maybe spun as an AI development chip.

If the Mini/Studio range got a "straight" upgrade to the M4 series then that price overlap between the base Studio Max and the fully-upgraded Mini Pro would make even less sense given the increased CPU power of the Max. Ignoring price, the new Mx Pro - with so many efficiency cores - makes less sense in a desktop.

The Studio was partly designed to accommodate the cooling for the M1 Ultra - odds are a M4 Max will run happily in a Mini-sized enclosure.

If we're going to see Thunderbolt 5 with faster PCIe-over-thunderbolt that could partly reduce the demand for the Mac Pro with PCIe slots and make the "Studio" more of a Mac Pro replacement.

So, just to speculate we could see:

M4 in an Apple TV sized box (as is being rumoured) - "new Mac Mini"
M4 Pro or Max in a current Mini-like - or reduced-height Studio - box - "new Mac Mini Pro"
M4 "Ultra" in a Studio-like box - "new Mac Studio" or maybe "new Mac Pro" but really "Trashcan Redeemed"

(Really just spitballing here - not gonna die on any of these hills!)
 

Peter_M

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2018
275
320
Those who truly need 64 GB in a Mac mini represent a really small market even in 2024, as most of that market would want a higher performance SoC anyway. That’s what the Mac Studio is for.

The lack of a 64 GB option for the Mac mini is pretty much irrelevant now that the Mac Studio is an option.
I find it fascinating how people can be such sycophants for Apple, a trillion-dollar corporation. Just because you don't need it, doesn't mean others don't.

You've heard of Logic Pro? Doing larger projects and (semi-)orchestral stuff, 32gb RAM doesn't cut it, period. You don't need a huge GPU here, so the Mx Pro would be a natural choice.

Also MacBook Pro 14" could've been much better for audio work. Now you either get the unbinned Max chip with 96gb RAM, or the binned Max with 64gb. Either way, it's an insanely expensive product, which also could've been running quieter and cooler with a Pro chip + 64gb RAM.

Anyways, Apple will almost certainly stick to their current scheme for the M4 line, as they are making a killing on the inflated upgrade prices.

Unfortunately, Apple's prices are getting so high here in Europe, I've nearly stopped buying their products. I'm still on my 2018 Mac Mini and iPhone 11. My next main Mac machine will have to last me a decade.
 
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Corefile

macrumors 6502a
Sep 24, 2022
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Probably not. ...but a PC running an AMD Threadripper or suchlike - that can run x86-64 code natively - almost certainly will. Right tool for the job etc... Meanwhile, a VM on a Mac will probably be good for running that one awkward Windows-only app that you need occasionally.
Some of us generally stick with Apple hardware because it's better. The sum of what I can do with it is why I have a 2018 Mini running Proxmox for such a Windows application. I generally don't want to touch generic PC hardware as I find it disgusting. People have their own reasons I guess.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,657
12,585
I find it fascinating how people can be such sycophants for Apple, a trillion-dollar corporation. Just because you don't need it, doesn't mean other don't.

You've heard of Logic Pro? Doing larger projects and (semi-)orchestral stuff, 32gb RAM doesn't cut it, period. You don't need a huge GPU here, so the Mx Pro would be a natural choice.

Also MacBook Pro 14" could've been much better for audio work. Now you either get the unbinned Max chip with 96gb RAM, or the binned Max with 64gb. Either way, it's an insanely expensive product, which also could've been running quieter and cooler with a Pro chip + 64gb RAM.

Anyways, Apple will almost certainly stick to their current scheme for the M4 line, as they are making a killing on the inflated upgrade prices.

Unfortunately, Apple's prices are getting so high here in Europe, I've nearly stopped buying their products. I'm still on my 2018 Mac Mini and iPhone 11. My next main Mac machine will have to last me a decade.
I guess you haven’t bothered to price out the Mac mini. The problem with Mx Pro Mac mini Is that at higher memory amounts, it’s not cost effective vs the Mac Studio. The only scenario where the Mx Pro Mac mini actually makes any sense is if you have comparatively low memory requirements. Mac Studio is the machine of choice for Logic Pro if you need more RAM.

Of course you could argue Apple needs to price memory upgrades better, but that’s a different argument.

In any case, your scenario of Mac mini Mx Pro plus 64 GB is ultra niche. The market for that is extremely small. You shouldn’t be surprised that few are sympathetic to your niche wishes.
 

Basic75

macrumors 68020
May 17, 2011
2,071
2,429
Europe
(What seems to be missing - esp. on the Mac Pro - is some sort of secondary external DDR5 RAM, maybe acting as swap, to prevent swapping to flash causing a bottleneck).
Last year Intel showed a server chip with HBM on package that can be configured as system RAM, or as cache for off-package DDR5 RAM, or as software-managed fast RAM next to the slower DDR5. Would be perfect for the Mac Pro and the people that need 1TB or more RAM. But it probably needs too many extra pins on the SoC to make it commercially viable.
 

Cape Dave

macrumors 68020
Nov 16, 2012
2,381
1,676
Northeast
I'm happy to find you in a good Mac mini mood Cape Dave. I'm ready for the smoke.
Me too! I think this new mini will be a true rock star! Small computers that are FAST and SILENT are my favorite computers. Nothing I do really taxes a computer. Heavy surfing and email and WordPress are what I do. Nevertheless, I still like my computer to be SNAPPY. The snappier the better. And silence is golden. So exciting that a new mini is coming!
 
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