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Populus

macrumors 603
Aug 24, 2012
5,841
8,321
Spain, Europe
Presumably the day will come when the base RAM moves up to 16gb, and maybe it is coming soon
You know what? Knowing Apple and their tradition of spreading hardware advances through several generations, to milk their users, and make them upgrade twice instead of once, I was really convinced that the next base RAM step would be 12GB, then 24GB as the next tier, then 36GB. I’ll be -pleasantly- surprised if they jump straight to 16GB as base RAM.
 
You know what? Knowing Apple and their tradition of spreading hardware advances through several generations, to milk their users, and make them upgrade twice instead of once, I was really convinced that the next base RAM step would be 12GB, then 24GB as the next tier, then 36GB. I’ll be -pleasantly- surprised if they jump straight to 16GB as base RAM.
Hmm, 12gb would put me in a dilemma. Is it enough, or should I go to 24? I'm confident that 16 is enough for me at the moment. 12 makes the upgrade more tempting. So, I could definitely see Apple doing it for that very reason.
 

sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,310
1,680
You know what? Knowing Apple and their tradition of spreading hardware advances through several generations, to milk their users, and make them upgrade twice instead of once, I was really convinced that the next base RAM step would be 12GB, then 24GB as the next tier, then 36GB. I’ll be -pleasantly- surprised if they jump straight to 16GB as base RAM.
It all depends where the market is going. I’d suspect if windows pc manufacturers were switching to 16gb then Apple would too based on getting biggest discounts amortised over the next 4 years.

It’s not a case of photocopying Redmond but maybe someone like Tim has done some supply chain negotiation and 16gb RAM will be the best deal over time - not just right now this year.

It’s just quite convenient that the mini could also get a (cheaper) binned m4 for the first time to mitigate the expected price increase at least in part but also a case redesign which suggests to me that the m4 pro might be becoming an entry level SKU in the Mac Studio (or disappointingly being eliminated for poor sales?)

So I’m not sure if I said it in this thread but add $200 for the extra ram, take $100 off for a binned m4 and the redesign will be paid for over the length of the 4 generation lifespan of the forthcoming mini. A relatively mild price increase - even if they did the full $200 they could allow the m2 mini to live on at third party retailers.

I’d just like the next macOS to come with an AppleTV mode so people can potentially purchase a mini as an ‘AppleTV Pro’ with m4 processor and play tvOS games or stream their 8k stuff off a dual bootable or virtualised partition.

A redesign to make it more acceptable for putting under a tv could make it a games console or luxury streamer by the back door. Apple could keep an A18 4K AppleTV for the ‘basics’
 
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Melbourne Park

macrumors 65816
...

I’d just like the next macOS to come with an AppleTV mode so people can potentially purchase a mini as an ‘AppleTV Pro’ with m4 processor and play tvOS games or stream their 8k stuff off a dual bootable or virtualised partition.
The seems like wanting Apple to make a touch screen notebook, or an iPad with a cellular capability. Both could easily have been done.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,982
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It all depends where the market is going. I’d suspect if windows pc manufacturers were switching to 16gb then Apple would too based on getting biggest discounts amortised over the next 4 years.
The market has already gone. There's no "if" about it unless you make false comparisons with $300 PC bricks or deliberately hunt out the worst deals on PC makers' labyrinthine websites. Mini PCs in the Mac Mini $700 price bracket - form the likes of Minisforum tend to come with 32GB (as does the £1600 Snapdragon ThinkPad). Entry-level MacBook Airs aside, going to 16GB base barely brings Apple up to par.

It’s not a case of photocopying Redmond but maybe someone like Tim has done some supply chain negotiation and 16gb RAM will be the best deal over time - not just right now this year.
As I've posted before - Apple's prices are so far detached from the actual hardware cost that I doubt the actual bill-of-materials for a particular product really comes into it. It's been $200/£200-per-8GB since at least the 2014 Mini (which may have been justified by the cost of LPDDR at the time) it was $200/£200-per-8GB when I bought an iMac in 2017 - which used bog standard DDR4 SODIMMs and was able to get an extra 16GB one-off, retail (and keep the supplied 8GB) of the same Micro RAM from Crucial for £140 - and its still $200-per-8GB today when 32GB of LPDDR5x retails for $175 (that's $44 per 8GB).

These are high-margin products and are probably not priced on a bill-of-materials + % markup basis. It's probably closer to "Here is the range of price points we want to sell our computers at - what are the minimum specs we can get away with to justify each price point?"

if Apple put up prices it will be because they think the market will bear higher prices, and any increase in specs will simply be a rationalisation for that.

The $200 increments for RAM capacities - and likewise for SSD - are baked into Apple's current price range: not just the BTO options, but in the best/better/best variants of each model and even between models. I suspect that those $200 upgrades will stay. However, if Apple really are, as rumoured, going to update the entire Mac range to M4 series between now and next spring (something of a first) that's a good time to re-structure their price range.

I wouldn't rule out the 12GB base - I don't see a compelling case for or against it - which could lead to a neat 12/24/36 progression with $200-per-12GB becoming the new rule. Or they could just bump the base specs to 16GB and ripple that up across the range, and still charge $200-per-8GB increment. Or maybe after 10 years at that rate it's time to accept that 16GB is the new 8GB and charge a still way-over-the-odds $200 per 16GB.

Or - quite frankly - they probably have the brass neck to just stick to 8GB base and rely on the loyal fan-base hating Windows and Linux enough to keep paying up.

I’d just like the next macOS to come with an AppleTV mode so people can potentially purchase a mini as an ‘AppleTV Pro’ with m4 processor and play tvOS games or stream their 8k stuff off a dual bootable or virtualised partition.
You mean like this :


Which has already come and gone - not a good sign! I guess Apple would rather sell you two devices, and make sure the TV box - even if it needed a M-series processor for 8k support - wasn't a viable Mac.

I guess you can always run Plex or Kodi on the Mac.
 

WC7

macrumors 6502
Dec 13, 2018
392
295
I can understand some of the AI features maybe would need 16 GB ... but for 'smallish AI' does that apply? We've had ML for a while ... still feels like base models would just need 8 GB keeping the existing price point ... but with the M4 chip.
 

sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,310
1,680
The market has already gone. There's no "if" about it unless you make false comparisons with $300 PC bricks or deliberately hunt out the worst deals on PC makers' labyrinthine websites. Mini PCs in the Mac Mini $700 price bracket - form the likes of Minisforum tend to come with 32GB (as does the £1600 Snapdragon ThinkPad). Entry-level MacBook Airs aside, going to 16GB base barely brings Apple up to par.
I'm beginning to see 32Gb RAM on Windows PC as being the sweet spot for new builds next year as RAM prices continue to come down - storage prices are still rising since their historic lows last year thanks to oversupply. For some builds 64Gb is a relative bargain too although I'm not sure how many light users would get the best out of that.

As I've posted before - Apple's prices are so far detached from the actual hardware cost that I doubt the actual bill-of-materials for a particular product really comes into it. It's been $200/£200-per-8GB since at least the 2014 Mini (which may have been justified by the cost of LPDDR at the time) it was $200/£200-per-8GB when I bought an iMac in 2017 - which used bog standard DDR4 SODIMMs and was able to get an extra 16GB one-off, retail (and keep the supplied 8GB) of the same Micro RAM from Crucial for £140 - and its still $200-per-8GB today when 32GB of LPDDR5x retails for $175 (that's $44 per 8GB).

These are high-margin products and are probably not priced on a bill-of-materials + % markup basis. It's probably closer to "Here is the range of price points we want to sell our computers at - what are the minimum specs we can get away with to justify each price point?"

if Apple put up prices it will be because they think the market will bear higher prices, and any increase in specs will simply be a rationalisation for that.

The $200 increments for RAM capacities - and likewise for SSD - are baked into Apple's current price range: not just the BTO options, but in the best/better/best variants of each model and even between models. I suspect that those $200 upgrades will stay. However, if Apple really are, as rumoured, going to update the entire Mac range to M4 series between now and next spring (something of a first) that's a good time to re-structure their price range.

I wouldn't rule out the 12GB base - I don't see a compelling case for or against it - which could lead to a neat 12/24/36 progression with $200-per-12GB becoming the new rule. Or they could just bump the base specs to 16GB and ripple that up across the range, and still charge $200-per-8GB increment. Or maybe after 10 years at that rate it's time to accept that 16GB is the new 8GB and charge a still way-over-the-odds $200 per 16GB.

Or - quite frankly - they probably have the brass neck to just stick to 8GB base and rely on the loyal fan-base hating Windows and Linux enough to keep paying up.

And that's where Apple probably don't care about pricing as you say, if the PC manufacturers merely come to them and say "sorry we can't deliver the parts you need as our order book in 2-3 years time is aiming at higher capacity chips" then they'd have to change but they've shown little sign of 'going with the market' while Macs make the profit levels that they want.

It's like that story about Intel having special orders from Apple to keep making an old Mac mini CPU long after official stocks stopped being produced by Apple - although this story suggests that Apple got the last Coffee Lake chips off Intel just in time for M1 - rather than expend engineering resources to add a later variant which would need supporting. Haswell mobile chips that went into the long lived 2014 model had a long life from Intel.

In terms of Apple deciding between 6Gb and 8Gb RAM chips I suspect it comes down to profit margin more than consumer usability these days. If Apple can strike a deal over multiple years to cover sufficient profit for them - to include availability of parts - I'd suspect that they'd find a deal for 8Gb chips better given forecasting over 4 generations of Mx series CPUs.

You mean like this :

Which has already come and gone - not a good sign! I guess Apple would rather sell you two devices, and make sure the TV box - even if it needed a M-series processor for 8k support - wasn't a viable Mac.

I guess you can always run Plex or Kodi on the Mac.

Front row was just a media centre though. I'm talking about full tvOS including ability to run those apps including games. It would allow Apple to make Apple TV gaming more of an interesting prospect anything in the Mac range could run tvOS at the push of a remote control.

If a $499-599 Mac mini 'console' could go up against Xbox Series X, granted just on basic graphics the Xbox Series X and PS5 probably perform better than M2/M4. But a glance at Geekbench shows even the M2 outperforms the Series X on CPU benchmarks and power consumption. And imagine what happens if someone fires up their Mac Studio.

Maybe the next thing to do is for Apple to create an iMac with a 120Hz Pro-motion display that plays nice with games... :)

Mind you, even if they stuck with an A18 CPU for Apple TV only that's still a lot of power for a tiny box under the TV, if only they had the ambition to make the software better without expecting that people would spend lots of money on an Apple TV vs the many cheap competitors such as Roku, Fire Stick, etc.
 
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Boyd01

Moderator
Staff member
Feb 21, 2012
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New Jersey Pine Barrens
I took it to mean using an iPad exactly like an iPhone. Since that never interested me, I'm not sure, but thought that wasn't quite possible (you can't get a phone plan for an iPad... can you?)
 
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sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,310
1,680
I took it to mean using an iPad exactly like an iPhone. Since that never interested me, I'm not sure, but thought that wasn't quite possible (you can't get a phone plan for an iPad... can you?)
Not possible sadly, I read in other threads about people using their iPad mini with some sort of voice solution. Here’s a Linus tech tips mac address video from a couple of years ago.

It’s bound to be to protect the premium price on iPhone and also due to licensing costs from Qualcomm etc - cellular data being cheaper to licence I guess.

What’s to stop people from pairing an iPad mini cellular with a cellular Apple Watch though?
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,982
8,404
Front row was just a media centre though. I'm talking about full tvOS including ability to run those apps including games.
MacOS on Apple Silicon can already run iOS/iPadOS apps natively, where the developer deigns to allow it. tvOS apps should be trivial by comparison because they don't have the complication being designed for touchscreen, accelerometer etc.

Anyway, if I were using a Mac as a "set top box" I'd want to take advantage of running things like Kodi, Jellyfin etc. with the advantage of local storage and a full range of (legal) plug-ins.

All MacOS really needs is a launcher with a "10' user interface".
 

sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,310
1,680
MacOS on Apple Silicon can already run iOS/iPadOS apps natively, where the developer deigns to allow it. tvOS apps should be trivial by comparison because they don't have the complication being designed for touchscreen, accelerometer etc.

Anyway, if I were using a Mac as a "set top box" I'd want to take advantage of running things like Kodi, Jellyfin etc. with the advantage of local storage and a full range of (legal) plug-ins.

All MacOS really needs is a launcher with a "10' user interface".
Strongly suspect that Apple won’t care about third party stuff to a great degree. Apple TV mode really should be a no brainer but I would imagine that Apple will want to keep tvOS stuff away from a Mac file system. Might even make it a non starter.
 
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theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,982
8,404
Apple TV mode really should be a no brainer but I would imagine that Apple will want to keep tvOS stuff away from a Mac file system.
I assume that tvOS Apps running under MacOS would be sandboxed, and not able to do anything they can't do on an ATV.

However, tvOS Apps like VLC, MrMC, NextPVR, Plex - and even Apple's 'Computers' App can talk to network services running on a Mac - and I see no reason why that couldn't be the same Mac that they're running from.

Meanwhile, full Kodi, Jellyfin etc, are all available as native MacOS Apps, but not on AppleTV.
 

Gloor

macrumors 6502a
Apr 19, 2007
987
667
Nah, he is a wanker. All his videos are clickbaits with very little info. He just repeats what Gurman posts and he hides behind more 'info'. I loathe that guy and avoid his videos. I wish youtube would introduce 'refund' option so if the video is empty and its just clickbait i could get the click 'back' and it would force youtubers to actually produce quality over quantity.

If you look back through their videos then you'll see their predictions are pretty accurate.
 
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Melbourne Park

macrumors 65816
I took it to mean using an iPad exactly like an iPhone. Since that never interested me, I'm not sure, but thought that wasn't quite possible (you can't get a phone plan for an iPad... can you?)
No you cannot.

Every iPad we've bought has had cellular. Which costs more in an iPad Pro than in a base iPad. The chip is the same. The reason we have cellular is because only the cellular versions include a GPS capability. The GPS chip is worth 85 cents to Apple. We have never ever used the cellular capability. We use the GPS. After all there is an App on the iPad which has maps. But it needs a cellular version to work because the cellular version has GPS. It's another example of Apple's price gouging its loyal user base.

The iPad mini was a straightforward candidate for being a full blow phone, and when a thinner one comes, even more so.

We go camping in Australia, and I'm installing a Starlink dish on our off road van. To get the internet, and it avoids having a satellite phone (which is useful in an emergency). Apple is saying their phones can do emergency satellite calls - in the USA. If an iPad could make satellite calls it would be a superb navigation device, combined with a phone capability. But Apple fears it would take sales from iPhones. And if Apple did that, I bet you could not pair your Apple watch with it - you'd still need an iPhone for that.

It's a bit like saying that you can have a touch screen mac. If you want a touch screen, buy an iPad. And a keyboard. But I've seen plenty of touch screen macs, many businesses were doing so with the Risc macs, using third party touch solutions on CRT monitors. I'm talking from the early 1990s.

Nowadays it's common for various forms of notebooks to have touch screens as many users reckon a touchpad screen combines brilliantly with touch pad notebooks. Touch screens are standard in cars now, and many have proximity motion as well. It's a cheap technology. My wife wouldn't use a Mac because she demands a touch screen. Apple doesn't care though about those with such preferences, they want people to buy two of their devices instead of one. That thinking goes right across Apple's products. Now if you want more disk space or need more RAM for your desktop Mac, you've got to buy a new computer.

The question for desktop users in that situation, who are used to having a neat desktop with no cables and extra de devices connected to each other, being able to upgrade affordably GPUs, drives and RAM, even CPUs and hence extend the life of their hardware and enjoy the convenience of upgrading when its actually required, is whether their desktop will still be made by Apple.
 
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