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sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,311
1,680
Then yeah, hopefully it will come with HDMI 2.1 like most of the electronics nowadays do, and we’ll be able to enjoy 120 refresh rate on the monitors that allow it. Actually, I’m going to buy a 27“ 4K 144Hz monitor soon, and it will come in handy! waiting for the next Mac mini will be worth it.

By the way, does anyone know if the M3 Pro/Max MBP has an HDMI 2.1 port? And does it allow 120 Hz refresh on third party USB-C or HDMI connected monitors?
Looks like it does.

From https://www.apple.com/uk/macbook-pro/specs/


M3
  • Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at 1 billion colours and:
  • One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz
M3 Pro
  • Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at 1 billion colours and:
  • Up to two external displays with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz over Thunderbolt, or one external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz over Thunderbolt and one external display with up to 4K resolution at 144Hz over HDMI
  • One external display supported at 8K resolution at 60Hz or one external display at 4K resolution at 240Hz over HDMI
M3 Max
  • Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at 1 billion colours and:
  • Up to four external displays: up to three external displays with 6K resolution at 60Hz over Thunderbolt and one external display with up to 4K resolution at 144Hz over HDMI
  • Up to three external displays: up to two external displays with 6K resolution at 60Hz over Thunderbolt and one external display with up to 8K resolution at 60Hz or one external display with 4K resolution at 240Hz over HDMI
Thunderbolt 4 digital video output
Support for native DisplayPort output over USB‑C (M3 Pro and M3 Max)
HDMI digital video output
  • Support for one display with up to 4K resolution at 120Hz (M3)
  • Support for one display with up to 8K resolution at 60Hz or 4K resolution at 240Hz (M3 Pro and M3 Max)
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
Be careful with the HDMI 2.1 nomenclature. It’s meaningless now, because the HDMI 2.0 label no longer officially exists. Pretty much everything is HDMI 2.1 now, whether or not it has the more advanced 2.1 features, because they’ve changed the naming standard.

But yes, M3 Pro and M3 Max support higher 4K refresh rates over HDMI. It’d be good if M4 non-Pro also gets it. I’d prefer to have higher resolution as well though, even if such monitors with HDMI are rare.
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,289
13,392
Might have mentioned this before, but...

Does a "downsized" Mini serve notice that next year's coming m4xx Mac Studio may be similarly "shrunk" a bit, as well...?
 

sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,311
1,680
Might have mentioned this before, but...

Does a "downsized" Mini serve notice that next year's coming m4xx Mac Studio may be similarly "shrunk" a bit, as well...?
There’s been 2 generations of the studio, I’d reckon we get another 2 before that design is due replacement.

the mini was well overdue in terms of time and multiple generations.
 
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Populus

macrumors 603
Aug 24, 2012
5,991
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Spain, Europe
Might have mentioned this before, but...

Does a "downsized" Mini serve notice that next year's coming m4xx Mac Studio may be similarly "shrunk" a bit, as well...?
It may, or it may not. They are two different products, Mac mini, and Mac Studio, just like the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. And if they redesign the Studio at some point (next year, or in three years), they don’t have to follow the same path as the Mac mini. Maybe they choose to make it shorter in height, and maybe a bit smaller from the sides. Only Apple knows how and when.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
Let's not forget that M4 Macs are meant to be coming with 16Gb RAM and the commensurate price increase.
Nobody knows about the price.
It's possible that Gurman et. al. have got industry leaks about the spec (which may have to be shared with key developers etc. ahead of launch) but the price will be a closely guarded commercially-sensitive secret until the launch or very shortly before.

...and as I think I've said before (here or in other threads) if the price goes up it will be because Apple's marketing department thinks the market will bear a price increase, no other reason. These are high-margin goods where the retail price has little to do with the bill of materials. Not that Apple won't also want to reduce the BOM to the minimum the market will tolerate, but we're rapidly reaching the point where 8GB SoCs will start to become uneconomical to manufacture as demand for such small chips falls (see: the stories about "8Gb" iPad Pros actually containing 12GB chips.

I don't think it would be wise to be penny pinching by only doing 2 full USB4/TB3 ports with an M4 chip which is capable of having 4.
Again - the 4 controllers is just people's guesswork from looking at photos of the M4 die. Having "binned" chips with two of those disabled to meet a price point is entirely feasible. Or, as I said before, the M4 design might have dropped the extra, non-USB4 PCIe/USB3/eDP lines that the previous chips appear to have had in favour of using one or more of the USB4 ports for internal I/O.

NB: on the M3 iMac the base model just has 2 TB4 ports while $200 extra gets you 2 more USB 3.2-only ports, a couple of GPU cores and a different power brick (with Ethernet). So, Apple are quite prepared to charge extra for even non-TB USB-C ports.

I wouldn't have thought that the modern Thunderbolt controller chips were that much more expensive - Titan Ridge was meant to have been about $10-15 for the Intel Macs if I recall.
That's $10-$15 (plus an extra chip on the board) that Apple won't spend if they don't have to.

FWIW, the Plugable brand powered USB 4 / Thunderbolt 4 hub I bought is only US$129.95,
...whereas a USB 3.2 hub with 4 downstream USB-C plugs is $40 - so, yes, TB4 stuff has come down in price a little bit, but it's still a hefty premium and not worth it if you already have enough ports for displays and true TB peripherals and just want to connect more USB 3 devices.

I went back to compare with the m3 and m3 pro MacBook Pros and it seems that Apple only offer official thunderbolt 4 ports (3 of them) with m3 pro models and presumably m3 max.
I think that's entirely down to TB4 certification requiring support for at least 2 external displays over Thunderbolt while the M1/2/3 only support two displays in total and the internal displays in Macbooks use up one of those. I'm not aware of any other way in which the Apple Silicon USB4 ports fall short of TB4.

The M1 was hard-wired to only support one display via thunderbolt - even the M1 Mini could only do 1 via TB and 1 via HDMI - so all the ports were "USB4 with Thunderbolt"

The M2 Mini, with no internal display, could support two via Thunderbolt so its ports qualified as TB4 while the M2 Macbooks still used up one for the internal display and were stuck with "USB4 with Thunderbolt"

The M3 MacBooks got a software update that allowed two displays in Thunderbolt in "clamshell" mode when the internal display was disabled - either that was too big an "if" to qualify as TB4 or the software update came too late to get the ports re-certified.
 
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EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
...whereas a USB 3.2 hub with 4 downstream USB-C plugs is $40 - so, yes, TB4 stuff has come down in price a little bit, but it's still a hefty premium and not worth it if you already have enough ports for displays and true TB peripherals and just want to connect more USB 3 devices.
Not a reasonable comparison. That's an unpowered hub and in fact, there is no way to add power support even if you wanted to, since there's no port for it. Furthermore, it comes with no extra freebies.

The Thunderbolt hub I linked is fully powered and comes complete with the AC adapter. Furthermore, it comes with a separate 2.5-foot Thunderbolt 4 cable and a separate USB-C-->HDMI 2.0 dongle in the box.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
Not a reasonable comparison. That's an unpowered hub and in fact, there is no way to add power support even if you wanted to, since there's no port for it.
That was just one example - there are plenty of other, powered options under $100 - far less if you don't mind USB-A ports (which can still go up to 10Gbps).
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
That was just one example - there are plenty of other, powered options under $100 - far less if you don't mind USB-A ports (which can still go up to 10Gbps).
Indeed, we are talking about the difference between <$100 and <$120, and no I'm not talking about USB-A models. I'd be surprised if going forward if ANY new Mac has any USB-A ports.

The minimum should be USB 4. Like I said, if it's less than USB 4, it will be a disappointment, esp. when the non-Pro SoC already includes 4 independent TB4/USB4 controllers.
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
5 USB-C ports on M4 Pro Mac mini confirmed in code.
The new era of the Mac mini is beginning!

Macmini5port.png


P.S. For the record, my previous prediction was that a new form factor with no USB-A would come with M2, but here we are at M4 / M4 Pro.
 
Last edited:

Gloor

macrumors 65816
Apr 19, 2007
1,031
745
exciting times, can't wait to see what they will come up with. 5x USB-C is plentiful (more than my MBP)
 

empersance

macrumors member
Jun 10, 2021
39
16
The current base model is 8/256 at 599 (729 in europe). I have an M1 8/256 and i will upgrade if and only if the ram on the base model will be at least 12GB

What do you think they will do? I strongly believe that the base model will be the old M2 8/256 while the new "base" M4 model will be like 699 or 799 at 12/256 or 16/256
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,289
13,392
I wouldn't be surprised to see "5 ports" ONLY on the m4pro models (3 on back, 2 on front face).

The NON-pro "m4" models may have only 3 (omitting the front ports) ...

No insider knowledge -- that's just a GUESS on my part.

Consider the redesigned 24" iMacs... to get four ports on the back, you had to buy the "upscaled" version. The "base" iMac has only two...
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
I wouldn't be surprised to see "5 ports" ONLY on the m4pro models (3 on back, 2 on front face).

The NON-pro "m4" models may have only 3 (omitting the front ports) ...

No insider knowledge -- that's just a GUESS on my part.

Consider the redesigned 24" iMacs... to get four ports on the back, you had to buy the "upscaled" version. The "base" iMac has only two...
Mark Gurman already said Apple was working on 3 USB-C and 5 USB-C models.

Whether or not both models get released, we don’t know yet, but I suspect yes. Perhaps M4 with 3 x TB4/USB4, and M4 Pro with 3 x TB4/USB4 and 2 cut down USB4.
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,026
8,471
The NON-pro "m4" models may have only 3 (omitting the front ports) ...
It's all guesswork but the leak of the "Mac Mini (5 port)" name rather suggests that there will be "5 port" and "some-other-number-probably-2-or-3 port" versions of machines that are otherwise indistinguishable.

(How I feel about thast rather depends upon (a) the price and (b) whether there are still Ethernet and HDMI ports and an internal power supply...)

The current M2 Pro mini has 4 TB4 ports vs. the regular M2 with 2 - but I've never seen one described as "Mac Mini (4 ports)".
 
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sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,311
1,680
Mark Gurman already said Apple was working on 3 USB-C and 5 USB-C models.

Whether or not both models get released, we don’t know yet, but I suspect yes. Perhaps M4 with 3 x TB4/USB4, and M4 Pro with 3 x TB4/USB4 and 2 cut down USB4.
Best case scenario would be all Thunderbolt ports with choice of either 3 or 5 depending on processor choice but that splits the lines up. The cut outs on the back of the current model make it feasible for the same outer shell to be used (ports connected to the motherboard which doubles as part of the back of the case as per all Mac minis) so I’d guess that the forthcoming mini has no front ports and they are all on the back whether 3 or 5 in number and the port reduction is due to space considerations.

But Both imply a net loss of ports if usb a is missing. The current m2 series have 2 or 4 thunderbolt ports depending on non pro or pro cpu. And then add 2 usb a for keyboard and mouse etc.

Describing the ports as usb-c implies that they might again be seen as USB4 ports for certification reasons, maybe to do with total number of external monitors supported?
 

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,990
12,954
Best case scenario would be all Thunderbolt ports with choice of either 3 or 5 depending on processor choice but that splits the lines up. The cut outs on the back of the current model make it feasible for the same outer shell to be used (ports connected to the motherboard which doubles as part of the back of the case as per all Mac minis) so I’d guess that the forthcoming mini has no front ports and they are all on the back whether 3 or 5 in number and the port reduction is due to space considerations.

But Both imply a net loss of ports if usb a is missing. The current m2 series have 2 or 4 thunderbolt ports depending on non pro or pro cpu. And then add 2 usb a for keyboard and mouse etc.

Describing the ports as usb-c implies that they might again be seen as USB4 ports for certification reasons, maybe to do with total number of external monitors supported?
I guess we'll find out in a month or so.

It should be noted that for example the Samsung X5 Thunderbolt SSD occasionally uses up to 9 Watts of power, so USB4's 7.5 W minimum wouldn't cut it, even if the new Mac mini's USB4 ports did support non-certified Thunderbolt. Perhaps they could call those USB4/TB with 15 Watts power.

ie. 3 x USB4/TB4 in the rear of the M4 Pro Mac mini, and 2 x USB4/TB in the front. That would be fine for most people.

I'm also very curious as to the base memory and memory upgrade costs too though. Will a 32 GB M4 Pro Mac mini actually make any sense compared to the Mac Studio?
 
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sublunar

macrumors 68020
Jun 23, 2007
2,311
1,680
I guess we'll find out in a month or so.

It should be noted that for example the Samsung X5 Thunderbolt SSD occasionally uses up to 9 Watts of power, so USB4's 7.5 W minimum wouldn't cut it, even if the new Mac mini's USB4 ports did support non-certified Thunderbolt. Perhaps they could call those USB4/TB with 15 Watts power.

ie. 3 x USB4/TB4 in the rear of the M4 Pro Mac mini, and 2 x USB4/TB in the front. That would be fine for most people.

I'm also very curious as to the base memory and memory upgrade costs too though. Will a 32 GB M4 Pro Mac mini actually make any sense compared to the Mac Studio?
Upgrades generally make less sense as you add more, best value is base SKUs and I think a 16gb base sku will be priced accordingly with m2 mini hanging around as entry level model.
Priced close to existing.

If it’s small enough the new machine could be a Mac nano in my opinion.
 
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