The Panther Thread

[dr.zeissler]

So it's not an "emulation layer" to let software run that was intended for newer OS,
it's a "porting layer" that let's developers create binaries for older MacOS versions.

Thx
Doc

 

[dr.zeissler]

I always tend to use the OS that the machine came with, Cube 9.0.4 instead of 9.2.2, Mac mini 10.3 instead of 10.4 (the 1,5 G4mini has to be 10.4). To my experience newer OS don't bring a big benefit, software that requires it mostly does not run well on older hardware...

 

[barracuda156]

So it's not an "emulation layer" to let software run that was intended for newer OS,
it's a "porting layer" that let's developers create binaries for older MacOS versions.

Well, it does have certain functionality to support older systems in cases where needed (`legacy-support` library, for example). So if you mean whether MacPorts allows to run some newer software on legacy systems which otherwise will not build or run by default, then yes, it does that. It is not an emulation layer though, it just carries some patches and in some cases provides extra libraries to supplement missing functionality.

 

[dr.zeissler]

Would be nice if there was a list of titles that Macports1.6 offers for Panther ?

 

[barracuda156]

I always tend to use the OS that the machine came with, Cube 9.0.4 instead of 9.2.2, Mac mini 10.3 instead of 10.4 (the 1,5 G4mini has to be 10.4). To my experience newer OS don't bring a big benefit, software that requires it mostly does not run well on older hardware...

I cannot really comment on anything earlier than late G4 hardware, I never had those machines, and while my first OS was 10.2, briefly, I never touched anything prior to 10.4 as a developer.

I am confident to say that one does get very tangible benefits with switching from 10.4 to 10.6, for example, on a decently fast PowerPC hardware. I have a lot of modern stuff working on my PowerMacs which would not build on 10.4 and some of it won’t build on 10.5. And it works reasonably well.

 

[dr.zeissler]

I bought Basic for MacOS version 4.62 was the last to run on 10.3...I loaded up some scene code but was never able to get anything to work due to the limitations of some required libs only existing for windows and some different calls, only Basic 5.xx offers... it was a big failure...so very disappointing...it would have been a very cool thing if I had pulled that of, but without programing experience it's simply a no-go...

 

[dr.zeissler]

I cannot really comment on anything earlier than late G4 hardware, I never had those machines, and while my first OS was 10.2, briefly, I never touched anything prior to 10.4 as a developer.

I am confident to say that one does get very tangible benefits with switching from 10.4 to 10.6, for example, on a decently fast PowerPC hardware. I have a lot of modern stuff working on my PowerMacs which would not build on 10.4 and some of it won’t build on 10.5. And it works reasonably well.

I have some G5 machines and a G4 with sonnet 1.8 and 4600ti, but these machines are too loud, too big....I always tend to fall back to the MacMini's...small, mostly silent....

 

[barracuda156]

Would be nice if there was a list of titles that Macports1.6 offers for Panther ?

Here you go: https://github.com/macports/macports-ports/releases/tag/release_1_6_0-archive
And the base: https://github.com/macports/macports-base/releases/tag/v1.6.0

P. S. I wanna try that out, build the base from source first, then edit `/opt/local/etc/macports/sources.conf`, adding a path to extracted ports archive, like `file:///opt/pantherports` (for example).

 

[barracuda156]

I bought Basic for MacOS version 4.62 was the last to run on 10.3...I loaded up some scene code but was never able to get anything to work due to the limitations of some required libs only existing for windows and some different calls, only Basic 5.xx offers... it was a big failure...so very disappointing...it would have been a very cool thing if I had pulled that of, but without programing experience it's simply a no-go...

Cannot help on Basic, perhaps check this: https://github.com/JohnBlood/awesome-basic
And this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4110720/what-is-a-good-basic-compiler-for-mac-osx

Pretty sure some of suggested implementations had powerpc versions. If you bump into something that fits your needs and existed for powerpc, it could be added into MacPorts.

 

[dr.zeissler]

Here you go: https://github.com/macports/macports-ports/releases/tag/release_1_6_0-archive
And the base: https://github.com/macports/macports-base/releases/tag/v1.6.0

Can't find a list of software (not porting-tools/libs) that is enabled to run on panther with macports1.6...or have I overlooked that? sorry

 

[barracuda156]

Can't find a list of software that is enabled to run on panther with nacports1.6...or have I overlooked that? sorry

Well, there is no such a thing even now as a list of supported software per-macOS-version, but an assumption is that as long as MacPorts itself officially supported Panther, most of ports supported it either, or at least most of fundamental ports did.

So the way to go about that is:
1. Confirm which was the latest MacPorts release to support 10.3.
2. Install that locally.
3. If that works, extract corresponding archive of port files, edit sources.conf to use that.
4. Try building something simple.
5. If that also works, install the complete toolchain (whatever was there at the moment, cmake? ld64? cctools? gcc-4.*?) and start building w/e you may wish to use.

P. S. Not sure if anyone bothers to reply or this will be just closed, but in case, I have asked this question for you: https://trac.macports.org/ticket/71609

 

[dr.zeissler]

Thx, it a bit like the other way round....here is my porting kit, give me a problem (software) that does not run on panther but should be run and the hardware-requirements implicate that this is possible. With my lack of experience it would be hard to even setup the software itself... let alone finding a real target for it.

 

[barracuda156]

Thx, it a bit like the other way round....here is my porting kit, give me a problem (software) that does not run on panther but should be run and the hardware-requirements implicate that this is possible. With my lack of experience it would be hard to even setup the software itself... let alone finding a real target for it.

If you have everything that you want to work on Panther already working, then perhaps no need to bother with MacPorts. If there is something that you would like to have (whether a particular software or an undefined tool for a specific task, like “something to play YouTube”), then it may be worth the effort.

 

[dr.zeissler]

Mostly I have everything I need in panther already...perhaps I will find something in the future.
MP4 encoder requires tiger, my eyetv-software runs on 10.4. with G4 1,5Mini, the older version (2.x) does not like my eyetv-box and hangs panther...but that is not essential to me, not on that machine. I still use the older aleph-one ports that do run on panther, the all-in-one package (one-file with icon) requires tiger... but it's not really better. Internet is not essential for me...my old firefox runs on panther and start "macintosh garden" that's all I need.

 

[Jubadub]

In my experience, booting an existing install of a "too old" version sometimes works. I have Jaguar working on the last of the eMacs, 1.42GHz model. I just installed 10.2.8 using another Mac, and it booted up on the eMac. So that might be the case for this too.

No dice, this is a very well-known model NOT to boot "anything": OS 9, Jaguar and Panther. IIRC even early Tiger is a no-go. That's why I asked @LightBulbFun if he could tell us the steps he took to boot Panther on the DLSD (PowerBook5,8 or its 17 incher equivalent) successfully, because achieving such a feat IS monumental.

So yesterday to refresh my memory I tried it again. This is what happens:

10.3.9: hardlock after the Apple logo shows up and the spinning picture underneath it is spinning (with the spinning halted/frozen). Waited 10 minutes to see if it wasn't truly hardlocked, but it was.

10.2.8: Kernel panic soon after Apple logo shows up, with the multi-language message. No verbose error logs shown.

10.2.8 with all ATI kexts removed: Hardlock/Crashes around at the same time Panther does, with the main difference being visual glitches appear on the screen. Waited 10 minutes after that, too, but no luck.

Ideas? Despite being the most powerful PowerPC laptop there ever was, it is also my Mac hardware that collects the most amount of dust because of this.

 

[air78]

Hi for all, i want to post there one optimization for Panther exclusive virtual machine Mac-on-Mac. All knows that, in guest virtual machines impossible to set 16 bit color mode, but this fixes with preference pane of X11 App. Going to "input" tab and set thousands color mode for x11 windows, then set thousands mode in guest operating system. After all you'll see how fast virtualized system began to work, especially GUI.

With 16 bit color mode, fixes 8 bit mode, it becomes possible to play classic games in undistorted color.

 

[Jubadub]

[...] Panther exclusive virtual machine Mac-on-Mac.

You mean non-G5-non-Server-edition-no-spaces-in-path Panther-exclusive virtual machine "Mac-on-Mac".

Yes... Mac-on-Mac doesn't work on Panther if it's Server Panther. "Client" Panther also won't work if it is running on a G5, or if there's a space in the volume name, or in any folder between it and Mac-on-Mac. Very, very finicky VM, could use a tweak/recompilation to address all this (and lack of Tiger compat.).

Anyway, thanks for sharing the discovery, @air78. Only issue is, if a machine can boot Panther, then it can just boot into native Mac OS 9.2.2 in the first place...

... Unless if someone figures out the steps to boot the DLSDs with Panther, since it is the ONLY G4 no one got booting Mac OS 9.2.2 with, yet.

 

[air78]

You mean non-G5-non-Server-edition-no-spaces-in-path Panther-exclusive virtual machine "Mac-on-Mac".

Yes... Mac-on-Mac doesn't work on Panther if it's Server Panther. "Client" Panther also won't work if it is running on a G5, or if there's a space in the volume name, or in any folder between it and Mac-on-Mac. Very, very finicky VM, could use a tweak/recompilation to address all this (and lack of Tiger compat.).

Anyway, thanks for sharing the discovery, @air78. Only issue is, if a machine can boot Panther, then it can just boot into native Mac OS 9.2.2 in the first place...

... Unless if someone figures out the steps to boot the DLSDs with Panther, since it is the ONLY G4 no one got booting Mac OS 9.2.2 with, yet.

Any G4 Mac can't boot 9.0.4, but Mac-on-Mac can, also any Mac can't boot System 7.5.2 except early Macs, but Mac-on-Linux with G3 and G4 hosts can do it.

 

[Jubadub]

Any G4 Mac can't boot 9.0.4, but Mac-on-Mac can [..]

Uh... no? Almost every G4 can, even the MDD has been coerced to boot it (and Mac OS 8.6, even). There's even a Mac OS 8.6 special version precisely for the G4-based Sawtooth, and naturally 8.6 predates 9.0.4, which has even better G4 support.

[...] also any Mac can't boot System 7.5.2 except early Macs, but Mac-on-Linux with G3 and G4 hosts can do it.

Some people modded some Old World ROM Macs to use G4s and boot into System 7. Also, ANY Mac, even Mac OS 9, can run Mini vMac, which is much faster and more lightweight than Mac-on-Mac, to boot System 7.5.2.

Also... weren't we talking of Mac-on-Mac instead, since this is the Panther thread? Mac-on-Linux on GNU/Linux systems is fine and all but... IMO is offtopic.

However, and speaking of offtopic, since this was touched upon, I must note: Mac-on-Mac, Mac-on-Linux, Mini vMac and EVERY other emulator, they do not boot into any of those systems per se. Or even if we argue they do, they 100%, without exception, perform worse than native booting (minus disk I/O, in some cases), even compared to slow Macs, by nature: they introduce input lag, framerate inconsistencies, a cap of either 30 Hz or 60 Hz refresh rate (I use 75 Hz on my native Mac OS systems on a CRT, for instance, which is much smoother than any other monitor tech), and so on. CPU emulation isn't so much an issue, contrary to myth, but overall system virtualization/emulation is. It's not the same as actually booting into the systems, and never will be.

Still, emulation is both cool and useful. Just not a substitute.