The Red DMSC System

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I was just curious if anyone else was planning on jumping into the new Red DMSC system later this fall. I was just about to pull the trigger on a new Canon Eos-1Ds Mark II a few months back when I stumbled across an artcile that referenced the new system. I hopped over to Red's website and was really impressed by what I saw. More than anything I like how you will never have to upgrade to a whole new camera ever again as you can upgrade just the processor. That is huge in my book and unless Canon comes out with something similar before Fall of 2009 I am definitely jumping on board with Red. The Scarlet S35 or FF35 is probably what ill end up getting. I just love the idea of assembling your own camera and being able to upgrade it and the specs for these things are incredibly impressive. Hell the Epic 617 Pro can shoot 28k video. That if frigging insane.

Anyways I was just curious if anyone else in here was giving this any thought. I am not 100% convinced but im pretty damn close to 100%. Again I would have to see something mighty impressive from Canon in the next 6 months and I just dont see that happnening.

 

[jaseone]

I'm pretty sure the people that could afford to invest in Red gear would not need to post a question about it in an online forum, heck the sensor alone for that Epic 617 is $55,000!

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I'm pretty sure the people that could afford to invest in Red gear would not need to post a question about it in an online forum, heck the sensor alone for that Epic 617 is $55,000!

LOL, I am not buying the Epic. I just brought that up because of how insane the specs are. You can get a Red system for 3 grand which is a lot chaper than a lot of the Camera's people are buying right now. As I stated I am probably buying the Scarlet and I could honestly care less if you think I can afford it or not. What a ridiculous post. People are posting whether or not to buy a 400 MM Canon L lens but its unrealistic to think that people would be interested in a Red system when they start at 3 grand. You obviously have no clue what your talking about.

This is a Mac forum and I guarantee a lot of the people in this forum not only can afford such gear but probably alreadly own gear that is vastly more expensive. To even suggest that people that can afford such gear do not post on forums is one of the most riduclous statments I have ever heard. As if to suggest the internet and forums on the interent are only for people of a specific level of income, lol.

 

[ChrisA]

The Red camera is horribly un ergonomic. It might be suited to studio photography where you are using a camera stand (Camera stands are those big supports made from 4" diameter steel tube on caster wheels)

Also look at the cost. For their price you could buy a MUCH nicer camera with even better specs from Hasselblad or Mamiya or even from Sinar. Actually Hasselblad, Mamiya and Sinar make cameras that are a lot like Red's in that you can upgrade any part including the sensor and "never have to buy another camera system" In fact you can even buy third party sensors for those cameras. All three of those brands will give better image quality then Red and those older brands are more mature and have more complete lines.

That said. You will find that it is cheap to buy a new top of the line Canon body then a new Red Sensor. Even with Canon you never have to buy another camera system. The Canon system can last for a livetime. you just replace parts liie bodies and lenses as required.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

The Red camera is horribly un ergonomic. It might be suited to studio photography where you are using a camera stand (Camera stands are those big supports made from 4" diameter steel tube on caster wheels)

Also look at the cost. For their price you could buy a MUCH nicer camera with even better specs from Hasselblad or Mamiya or even from Sinar. Actually Hasselblad, Mamiya and Sinar make cameras that are a lot like Red's in that you can upgrade any part including the sensor and "never have to buy another camera system" In fact you can even buy third party sensors for those cameras. All three of those brands will give better image quality then Red and those older brands are more mature and have more complete lines.

That said. You will find that it is cheap to buy a new top of the line Canon body then a new Red Sensor. Even with Canon you never have to buy another camera system. The Canon system can last for a livetime. you just replace parts liie bodies and lenses as required.

Are you talking about the Red Camera that is currently available or are you talking about their new DMSC system? There is no doubt that the Red Camera's that are currently available are absolutely lacking in the ergonomic dept then again they are made for cinematography and not still photography. The DMSC system that is coming out this year is designed for still photography and cinematography. They are not going to be anything like the original Red One camera.

As for the cost you are incorrect in this regard. The Red DMSC system is far cheaper than what is available from Hasselblad and Sinar. Mamiya does offer some digital backs that would be cheaper but they are vastly inferior quality wise. I really dont know where your getting your info because the Red system I am looking at is the exact same price as the Canon Mark II and it has a lot of advantages.

I already have a 4x5 with a digital back. I am now looking for a handheld digital system and if you can find me a digital system that can compete with the Scarlet S35 from Red at a similar price then I would be more than willing to give it a look. I havent been able to find anything.

I appreciate the post but your information just isnt correct. Red actually has a fixed lens model in the DMSC line that is only 2500 bucks. That in itself is extremely interesting and very tempting.

 

[jaseone]

My comment was more like those that are likely to want to invest in Red gear would have already placed their pre-order and wouldn't be posting on forums asking who else would be...

And how on earth do you know that Red's optical quality is going to be so vastly better than Nikon/Canon's? They are throwing around MP and FPS numbers but has anyone seen a single image from one yet? How is the noise handling at high ISO's? There are just so many unknowns with the RED system...

It is basically like the Neo Geo of video game systems when we were kids, everyone lusted over them but who actually owned them?

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

My comment was more like those that are likely to want to invest in Red gear would have already placed their pre-order and wouldn't be posting on forums asking who else would be...

And how on earth do you know that Red's optical quality is going to be so vastly better than Nikon/Canon's? They are throwing around MP and FPS numbers but has anyone seen a single image from one yet? How is the noise handling at high ISO's? There are just so many unknowns with the RED system...

It is basically like the Neo Geo of video game systems when we were kids, everyone lusted over them but who actually owned them?

Just another ridiculous comment. So all the people that might be interested in a Red have already pre ordered it huh. LOL, that is just beyond utterly ridiculous. I guarantee there are a ton of people waiting to see what the reviews are and waiting to see what people who actually have used one have to say. I am not going to sit here and defend my interest in this camera system. I am looking to buy a handheld digital system and as of right now I am planning on getting the Scarlet. If you dont want to believe me then dont. Believe what you want and go away.

As for the rest of your post, it just shows how little you know about Red and thier cameras. You can use all Nikon and Canon lenses with the Red DMSC system so I dont have to buy a single lens as I already own all the Canon lenses I want.

I wont argue that there are a lot of unknowns and that is exactly why a lot of people like myself HAVENT pre ordered one yet and its why I am not 100% sure and its why I made this thread to see if anyone else was thinking about it.

Comparing Reds new DMSC line to the NEO-Geo is the dumbest thing you have said yet. Now please stop wasting my time with stupid posts. Here a word of advice, try learning something about a topic before actually posting about it. Its clear you are 1 hair away from utterly clueless about the system I am talking about in this thread which means your just wasting everyone's time including your own.

I apologize if this post is a bit harsh however you have come into this thread, without knowing a single thing about me, and basically called me out as being full of crap. Not only do you presume to know what I am interested in buying, your also utterly clueless about the system I am talking about. All in all your posts show a level of ignorance that is quite frankly astounding.

 

[jaseone]

Good luck to you!

 

[TenPoundMonkey]

yeah,
I might get excited once I see more than marketing renderings....

It IS a neat concept, but I only see the real benefit if you are going to use it for motion...

Your prices are off too... from the RED materials, the DSMC brains (compact and fullframe) are $7,000 and $9,750 for JUST the brains... I don't see the advantage over a 1Ds or even the Nikon D3x... ESPECIALLY if you already have any investment in Nikon or Canon.

And the projected cost of the parts is high too... for a Scarlet, S35 DSMC, you start at $ 7,000 for the brain, once you add compact flash, IO, and battery, you are at $28,000. That's without lens.

Again, maybe real world tests will blow me away, but for now... meh.

I am a huge fan of the design aesthetic, and the modular setup is cool too.

 

[termina3]

Just another ridiculous comment.

[...]

As for the rest of your post, it just shows how little you know about Red and thier cameras. You can use all Nikon and Canon lenses with the Red DMSC system so I dont have to buy a single lens as I already own a complete canon lens kit.

Maybe jasone is crazy. Maybe he doesn't know crap. And yes, jasone's first post didn't sugarcoat his opinion.

You haven't been on these boards long, so I don't think you can make assumptions about the boards' demographics. And regardless of tenure, no one here should treat each other like you've treated joasone above. If you feel so strongly about how great RED will be, I hope you're right. Now go and buy one. There's no point waiting, or posting here, if you're that certain.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Unless you are doing BOTH HD video production and still photography it wouldn't be recommended for you OP.

Those bodies can't be justified by many unless they are studios/productions houses that spend $1000s on video and still capture equipment. Replacing just your Canon DSLR isn't enough.

You have to be replacing both your Canon DSLR and AJ-HPX3000 otherwise you are wasting the brains of the system.

Also, you have to consider the parts that will go into making your brain an SLR, and knowing RED's track record, they themselves will be high end and quite expensive.

Once again, Pro HD and Pro Stills, otherwise, stick with the Canon/Olympus/Nikon/Sony SLRs.

p.s. Yes, I am thinking about getting the FF35 system.

 

[TenPoundMonkey]

Oh, and I don't care what you can afford or not...

This tech stuff is cool and i lust over a lot of it.

I believe your interest in it is for real- I'm watching the development of the system as well... I'm very impressed with the concept, I'm just not sure about the benefit to photographers.

I wouldn't put off buying a camera this year...
As RED says "prices, specs, and delivery dates are subject to DRASTIC changes"...

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

yeah,
I might get excited once I see more than marketing renderings....

It IS a neat concept, but I only see the real benefit if you are going to use it for motion...

Your prices are off too... from the RED materials, the DSMC brains (compact and fullframe) are $7,000 and $9,750 for JUST the brains... I don't see the advantage over a 1Ds or even the Nikon D3x... ESPECIALLY if you already have any investment in Nikon or Canon.

And the projected cost of the parts is high too... for a Scarlet, S35 DSMC, you start at $ 7,000 for the brain, once you add compact flash, IO, and battery, you are at $28,000. That's without lens.

Again, maybe real world tests will blow me away, but for now... meh.

I am a huge fan of the design aesthetic, and the modular setup is cool too.

My prices are not off.

Scarlet 8x Fixed Zoom = 3000.00
Scarlet 2/3 Cinema = 2500 (Brain only)
Scarlet S35 = 7000 (Brain Only)
Scarlet FF35 = 9750 (Brain Only)

I wont even bother pricing the Epic line as they are way too expensive. I am planning on getting the S35 so that is about the same cost as a Canon Mark II. I plan on using all of my Canon L lenses so I dont have to buy any glass and I already own all of my own flash equipment so I dont need any of that either. I am planning on getting just the body, the grip and maybe some extra batteries. all in all its going to be a bit more expensive than going the canon route but the advantages it has are well worth it imo.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Maybe jasone is crazy. Maybe he doesn't know crap. And yes, jasone's first post didn't sugarcoat his opinion.

You haven't been on these boards long, so I don't think you can make assumptions about the boards' demographics. And regardless of tenure, no one here should treat each other like you've treated joasone above. If you feel so strongly about how great RED will be, I hope you're right. Now go and buy one. There's no point waiting, or posting here, if you're that certain.

First off I have been reading this website and these forums for years. Dont base how long someone has been on a website off of their posting history. Most people actually dont post in the forums, they just read them.

How I have treated Jasone???? You must be kidding me. The guy comes in here and basically accuses me of lying, not being able to afford the camera and not only does he not know a thing about me, he doesn't know a thing about the camera. Yet I am the one who treated him unfairly. That is funny stuff.

I stand by every single thing I said. He came in here being rude and trying to pick a fight. Everyone who treats me with respect gets respect in return. Those who treat me like Jasone did get the same treatment back.

As for me running out and buying one right now. Once you explain to me how I can do that ill jump right on it. You see the camera's dont hit the market until the fall / winter of 2009 so running out and buying one right now is a lot harder than it sounds. Again you tell me how I go about it and I just might take you up on it.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Oh, and I don't care what you can afford or not...

This tech stuff is cool and i lust over a lot of it.

I believe your interest in it is for real- I'm watching the development of the system as well... I'm very impressed with the concept, I'm just not sure about the benefit to photographers.

I wouldn't put off buying a camera this year...
As RED says "prices, specs, and delivery dates are subject to DRASTIC changes"...

Yeah I am with ya on that one. I lust over the tech stuff myself.

Well the most obvious benefit is that I get a high quality video device on top of a high quality still photograph device. I have always wanted a high quality video camera yet could never justify putting that kind of money into a video device as there was always some piece of still photography equipment that I needed more. This is the perfect solution to that problem as I am getting a camera that does both. On top of that, this thing is going to have a massive amount of add ons. Who knows what my interest will be down the road.

Again I am not 100% sold but it definitely stopped me from buying that Mark II and I will definitely give this line a serious look before buying anything. I am waiting to see what the reviews say about it.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Unless you are doing BOTH HD video production and still photography it wouldn't be recommended for you OP.

Those bodies can't be justified by many unless they are studios/productions houses that spend $1000s on video and still capture equipment. Replacing just your Canon DSLR isn't enough.

You have to be replacing both your Canon DSLR and AJ-HPX3000 otherwise you are wasting the brains of the system.

Also, you have to consider the parts that will go into making your brain an SLR, and knowing RED's track record, they themselves will be high end and quite expensive.

Once again, Pro HD and Pro Stills, otherwise, stick with the Canon/Olympus/Nikon/Sony SLRs.

p.s. Yes, I am thinking about getting the FF35 system.

Why isnt it just enough to replace your DSLR when they are pretty close to being the same price. I would agree with you 100% if it were a considerable amount of additional cash however that just isnt the case. At the very least I could get a 2/3 cinema and it would actually save me 2500 dollars off what I was going to spend on my Canon. I am still looking at the S35 as I dont mind paying a little bit more just for the video capability.

I am also very interested in the 8x fixed focal length model. There are days when I love those types of cameras.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Why isnt it just enough to replace your DSLR when they are pretty close to being the same price. I would agree with you 100% if it were a considerable amount of additional cash however that just isnt the case. At the very least I could get a 2/3 cinema and it would actually save me 2500 dollars off what I was going to spend on my Canon. I am still looking at the S35 as I dont mind paying a little bit more just for the video capability.

I am also very interested in the 8x fixed focal length model. There are days when I love those types of cameras.

It's pretty close to the same price, but remember that the $7000 you pay for the S35 is for the brain only, and it's still a cropped sensor. The FF35 is the one that's full 35mm and it's $9,750. And it's just the brain. To make it an SLR you'll need the viewfinder, REDhandle, Canon lens mount, etc.

And to get the quality of MF you'll need the 645, at $43,000.

It's seriously overkill if you aren't going to be doing half of what the body can do.

But you are the only one that can dictate what you will do with your system, and if a certain amount of money is going to good use.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

It's pretty close to the same price, but remember that the $7000 you pay for the S35 is for the brain only, and it's still a cropped sensor. The FF35 is the one that's full 35mm and it's $9,750. And it's just the brain. To make it an SLR you'll need the viewfinder, REDhandle, Canon lens mount, etc.

And to get the quality of MF you'll need the 645, at $43,000.

It's seriously overkill if you aren't going to be doing half of what the body can do.

But you are the only one that can dictate what you will do with your system, and if a certain amount of money is going to good use.

Yeah I know its just for the body. I for one do not expect the handle and lens mount to be very expensive. If I am wrong and they end up costing another 2-4 grand then that definitely changes things regarding how close it is price wise to the canon. Either way if this thing ends up living up to the hype, I think it will be worth it. Most of the time you get what you pay for in photography. I have absolutely no interest in the medium format version. If I want higher quality than I will just move to my large format system. This is a replacement of my 35 mm film camera, nothing more.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Yeah I know its just for the body. I for one do not expect the handle and lens mount to be very expensive. If I am wrong and they end up costing another 2-4 grand then that definitely changes things regarding how close it is price wise to the canon. Either way if this thing ends up living up to the hype, I think it will be worth it. Most of the time you get what you pay for in photography. I have absolutely no interest in the medium format version. If I want higher quality than I will just move to my large format system. This is a replacement of my 35 mm film camera, nothing more.

I have a feeling the handle and EVF are going to be about $700-$900 a piece. RED doesn't charge MB-D10 prices for their parts. Taking a look at the RED One's attachments is a good start. Battery $450, charger $550, EVF $2950, it could be the same for the Scarlet, we won't know until it comes.

When comparing sensor to sensor you should be looking at the FF35, which is $9,750 not including attachments. Even when looking at the S35 at $7000 w/o attachments, it's not really going to be the same price as the 1Ds Mark III which is already at $6500.... then you have to add the supporting gear for the RED Scarlet.

If you are looking to replace your 25mm film camera, you should probably give the 5D Mark II a shot at the least. For the price you pay for either the Canon or the RED you could outfit your whole system and then some.

I am assuming that you shoot commercially, correct?

If so, the Scarlet may be an option if you are planning to add HD production to your repertoire.

 

[MacNoobie]

I was just curious if anyone else was planning on jumping into the new Red DMSC system later this fall. I was just about to pull the trigger on a new Canon Eos-1Ds Mark II a few months back when I stumbled across an artcile that referenced the new system. I hopped over to Red's website and was really impressed by what I saw. More than anything I like how you will never have to upgrade to a whole new camera ever again as you can upgrade just the processor. That is huge in my book and unless Canon comes out with something similar before Fall of 2009 I am definitely jumping on board with Red. The Scarlet S35 or FF35 is probably what ill end up getting. I just love the idea of assembling your own camera and being able to upgrade it and the specs for these things are incredibly impressive. Hell the Epic 617 Pro can shoot 28k video. That if frigging insane.

Anyways I was just curious if anyone else in here was giving this any thought. I am not 100% convinced but im pretty damn close to 100%. Again I would have to see something mighty impressive from Canon in the next 6 months and I just dont see that happnening.

My god I stumbled upon this thread hoping there was a shred of good info on it and somehow the OP came off as an ass. Ohh I'm looking at a high end Canon but saw what RED is doing (which is impressive btw). But as we've dived deeper into the responses it sounds like you know a HECK of a lot more then you've given off. Obviously if you know so much about RED and are advocating it so deeply then you're not coming on here to ask for advice. You know more then you let off so rather then asking for advice and peoples genuine thoughts about the system you sound like another high pressured salesman trying to advocate RED for any serious photography. To which we've seen responses on the quality of the glass, the sensors, and high ISO performance for the upcoming DMSC came into question by other forum members. To accuse other members of what they can or cannot afford is absurdly ignorant as you dont know the financial situations of anyone else but yourself and those you might work with.

I'd say you need to pull you head out of your ass before attacking others, there I said it.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

My god I stumbled upon this thread hoping there was a shred of good info on it and somehow the OP came off as an ass. Ohh I'm looking at a high end Canon but saw what RED is doing (which is impressive btw). But as we've dived deeper into the responses it sounds like you know a HECK of a lot more then you've given off. Obviously if you know so much about RED and are advocating it so deeply then you're not coming on here to ask for advice. You know more then you let off so rather then asking for advice and peoples genuine thoughts about the system you sound like another high pressured salesman trying to advocate RED for any serious photography. To which we've seen responses on the quality of the glass, the sensors, and high ISO performance for the upcoming DMSC came into question by other forum members. To accuse other members of what they can or cannot afford is absurdly ignorant as you dont know the financial situations of anyone else but yourself and those you might work with.

I'd say you need to pull you head out of your ass before attacking others, there I said it.

You can interpret my post however you want to. As for what I know about the camera. I know just what the promo material on the website tells me which anyone in here could read in about 2 minutes flat. As for the rest of your post, time to take a look in the mirror.

Just another totally inaccurate and utterly ridiculous post. You make a post about Red and the idiots come out of the woodwork.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I have a feeling the handle and EVF are going to be about $700-$900 a piece. RED doesn't charge MB-D10 prices for their parts. Taking a look at the RED One's attachments is a good start. Battery $450, charger $550, EVF $2950, it could be the same for the Scarlet, we won't know until it comes.

When comparing sensor to sensor you should be looking at the FF35, which is $9,750 not including attachments. Even when looking at the S35 at $7000 w/o attachments, it's not really going to be the same price as the 1Ds Mark III which is already at $6500.... then you have to add the supporting gear for the RED Scarlet.

If you are looking to replace your 25mm film camera, you should probably give the 5D Mark II a shot at the least. For the price you pay for either the Canon or the RED you could outfit your whole system and then some.

I am assuming that you shoot commercially, correct?

If so, the Scarlet may be an option if you are planning to add HD production to your repertoire.

I am betting the handle and lens mount will be cheaper than that. IMO they are going to want to keep the price of those items down as that will get more people to buy into the system. If they price those essential add ons low then they can actually keep the price of the camera Competitive with the top of the line camera's by Nikon and Canon. Price them too high and you lose that edge and from what I have heard, going after some of the top end 35 mm users is something they are very interested in. Again you price those essentials too high and you lose a lot of them. Those might also be MSRP's which means that we might be able to find prices like 10-15% cheaper.

Again I am well aware that its going to be a bit more expensive but that is not really an issue if its just 1 or 2 grand. If it starts getting to be 3-5 grand then that can be an issue as I have a lot of other equipment to pay off over the next 3-4 years.

As for your last statement, I am looking at this as a replacement for my 35mm however as I have stated I have always wanted a professional level video recorder and would be more than willing to pay a bit more to get that ability especially since that is the direction all professional SLR's seem to be going.

One thing you seem to be overlooking is the actual quality of the sensor and not just the size. From my understanding the Mysterium-X and the Mysterium Monstro are significantly more advanced than the single plate CMOS sensor in the Mark II. Until it gets released and tests are able to be conducted we wont know the extent of it but I am betting it has better DR and a lot more pixels.

The bottom line for me is price, functionality and quality. I have no problem paying a bit more for something if its worth it. This is of course if these camera's live up to their hype. If that is the case then I have a hard time spending 6500 for a Mark II when I can a little bit more and get a Red one system. The advantages of the system are worth the price imo. The question is do you go for the S35 of the FF35? Thats a tough one.

 

[JNB]

While I'm nowhere near the level of expertise, skill, or need for RED, were I to have the expendable income, I would join the ranks of "too much money, too little sense" quite rapidly. It totally appeals to my inner industrial-design geek.

Until then, my 40D will have to suffice. Sigh…

Where did I put that lottery ticket?

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

While I'm nowhere near the level of expertise, skill, or need for RED, were I to have the expendable income, I would join the ranks of "too much money, too little sense" quite rapidly. It totally appeals to my inner industrial-design geek.

Until then, my 40D will have to suffice. Sigh…

Where did I put that lottery ticket?

IMO, the too little sense part is spending 6500 on a Mark II when you can spend a bit more and get a Red Scarlet. Then again I have always been a stickler for quality and have always gone after the best equipment I can afford. I make all too many sacrifices in other parts of my life so I can buy the photo equipment I want. Some people buy nice cars, some people buy big houses and others buy nice photo equipment. Its all a matter of preference.

Unfortunately photography is an equipment based medium. You cant just buy a 10 dollar brush and make a masterpiece. The guy who has the canon L lens is going to have higher quality pictures than the guy shooting with a sigma lens. Talent only gets you so far in photography. The rest of the way depends on equipment. Thats just the way it is. So imo if someone is serious about photography then again the too little sense part is buying lower quality equipment when you can save a bit more and get the higher quality gear.

 

[JNB]

Unfortunately photography is an equipment based medium. You cant just buy a 10 dollar brush and make a masterpiece. The guy who has the canon L lens is going to have higher quality pictures than the guy shooting with a sigma lens. Talent only gets you so far in photography. The rest of the way depends on equipment. Thats just the way it is. So imo if someone is serious about photography then again the too little sense part is buying lower quality equipment.

I would probably argue the opposite. I mean that with my 40D & L glass I can get some tremendous shots if I know what I'm doing with it artistically and technically, but take someone with real talent and a Brownie and their shots would make mine look like the crap they generally are.

I was always taught that the three most important components of a photograph were, in order, what's behind the body, what's in front of the body, and the body. Obviously, given equal skill, better equipment provides the means to a better shot, but skill levels are rarely equal, while equipment can be a easily fixed-in-place comparison.

I do agree though, that the best equipment available is preferable. I would rather have my gear being better than me, than the other way around. In my case, that's likely going to be the case for a long while.