The Red DMSC System

[TenPoundMonkey]

I have no problem admitting my excitement for this new line of cameras and given the specs I really dont understand how someone can not be excited.

WHAT SPECS other than video-related pixel numbers?

no full prices, no ISO/Shutter/DR/Weight/materials/weather sealing/etc. numbers...

Just take a breath and wait to see what ACTUALLY gets released and what it can ACTUALLY do before blowing your wad.

OMG, I hear that in 2015, Panasonic is releasing a camera that has 1 Gigapixels and will blow everything out of the water! I saw a drawing of what the body will look like and I'm definitely getting one, Why aren't you all excited???

I can't wait for the DMSC to be released and see some real world reviews, sounds promising, but we'll see. I also am interested in seeing what effect (if any) the red release has on future canon and nikon developments.

 

[TenPoundMonkey]

...some of the Red camera's in the line I have been dicussing are below 3500...
Sorry, I just call em like I see em as well and this was just another ridiculous post.

Again, relax buddy, and quit arguing price- The preliminary RED numbers START at $3,000 (brain) and that's without body/grip/storage/viewfinder/battery/etc... and NO ONE nows what the released prices will be anyway.

The full frame (35mm) options START at 3 times that cost (brains only), so as of right now a complete system would be 2-4 times MORE expensive than a similar Nikon or Canon system.

I'm open to seeing any real numbers to the contrary, and if RED could release a legit still photo competitor at only $3,000, that would be something people would notice.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Again, relax buddy, and quit arguing price- The preliminary RED numbers START at $3,000 (brain) and that's without body/grip/storage/viewfinder/battery/etc... and NO ONE nows what the released prices will be anyway.

The full frame (35mm) options START at 3 times that cost (brains only), so as of right now a complete system would be 2-4 times MORE expensive than a similar Nikon or Canon system.

I'm open to seeing any real numbers to the contrary, and if RED could release a legit still photo competitor at only $3,000, that would be something people would notice.

Stop arguing price? I am only answering posts directed at me and that post was referencing price. Sorry but when someone makes a post directed at me, I answer it. I know what the prices are as I already quoted them on this thread and your incorrect. You can get the fixed focal length model for 2500 and that comes as a complete kit, no other accessories needed. So when referring to this entire line of cameras, its starts at 2500 and again that is for a compete camera. So when people come in here and start attacking me because I made a post about a camera system that is too expensive for them to afford, yet in their signature they clearly state they own a Mark II and 3 Canon L lenses, well forgive me but I find that incredibly comical and I just cant help but respond.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

WHAT SPECS other than video-related pixel numbers?

no full prices, no ISO/Shutter/DR/Weight/materials/weather sealing/etc. numbers...

Just take a breath and wait to see what ACTUALLY gets released and what it can ACTUALLY do before blowing your wad.

OMG, I hear that in 2015, Panasonic is releasing a camera that has 1 Gigapixels and will blow everything out of the water! I saw a drawing of what the body will look like and I'm definitely getting one, Why aren't you all excited???

I can't wait for the DMSC to be released and see some real world reviews, sounds promising, but we'll see. I also am interested in seeing what effect (if any) the red release has on future canon and nikon developments.

I dont have to see any other specs to get excited. The fact that they are putting out a system of cameras that is capable of 2-28k is frigging unbelievable and well worthy of my excitement. Maybe you require a bit more to get your gears going, I dont especially when its in a field I am so passionate about. Plus we arent talking 2015, were talking about the next 12 months. Quite a big difference. There are A LOT of people excited about this system and I openly admit to being one of them. There are worse crimes to be guilty of.

 

[TenPoundMonkey]

Stop arguing price? I am only answering posts directed at me and that post was referencing price. Sorry but when someone makes a post directed at me, I answer it. I know what the prices are as I already quoted them on this thread and your incorrect. You can get the fixed focal length model for 2500 and that comes as a complete kit, no other accessories needed. So when referring to this entire line of cameras, its starts at 2500 and again that is for a compete camera. So when people come in here and start attacking me because I made a post about a camera system that is too expensive for them to afford, yet in their signature they clearly state they own a Mark II and 3 Canon L lenses, well forgive me but I find that incredibly comical and I just cant help but respond.

Fair enough on defending yourself, and I also hear you that lots of those price arguments are strange... good video and camera gear IS expensive no matter who makes it.

Pardon me about the prices, but you are talking about the DMSC system and the only brains that are listed as part of that system are the S35 and the FF35 (at $7,000 and $9,750 respectively) for the brains only...

 

[OreoCookie]

This was exactly my point above. If you only need still images and you have the money to afford a RED camera then you will get a much better quality result if you gave the money to Hasselblad or Mamiya. Both of these companies allow you to upgrade sensors too.

How do you know the IQ will be better with those cameras? I think for RED's primary market it makes a lot of sense that you can use the same equipment, sensor (= brain) included, for pro quality video material and stills alike. So I think there is a definite market. How good their future products are remains to be seen (at least I am very anxious about that).

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Fair enough on defending yourself, and I also hear you that lots of those price arguments are strange... good video and camera gear IS expensive no matter who makes it.

Pardon me about the prices, but you are talking about the DMSC system and the only brains that are listed as part of that system are the S35 and the FF35 (at $7,000 and $9,750 respectively) for the brains only...

Thanks I appreciate that you see my point.

As for the cameras, I may be incorrect in this matter. I thought the DMSC system included the entire line of cameras coming out including the fixed focal length model for 2500 and including the Epic line as well that goes all the way up to 54,000. My understanding was that DMSC was the name of the entire line. If its just for the S35 and FF35 then I admit I was wrong. Either way in my arguments I have been referring to the entire line because people keep coming in here and assuming because its Red, it must cost an insane amount of money and that just isnt the case as again they are soon going to be offering a fixed focal length model for 2500 and that is for a complete kit, no other accessories needed. I think its safe to say that Red is not just ultra High end now and that they do have some offerings that people with ordinary budgets can afford. Certainly people with a Mark II and a set of canon L lenses should not be making blanket statements about ALL of these camera's being too expensive.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I just went over to Red to check it out and I am not sure if DMSC refers just to the S35 and FF35 or if it refers to that entire line. I do see where is says DMSC under the S35 and FF35 so you might be right. Again I was under the assumption that the entire brochure was for the DMSC and I based my argument off that assumption. Its not a big deal either way. I misquoted the pricing on the fixed focal length complete kit. Its 3000.00 for the body and lens and 3750 for the complete Kit.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

How do you know the IQ will be better with those cameras? I think for RED's primary market it makes a lot of sense that you can use the same equipment, sensor (= brain) included, for pro quality video material and stills alike. So I think there is a definite market. How good their future products are remains to be seen (at least I am very anxious about that).

Comparing it to Hasselblad makes no sense anyways considering the fact that their backs run 20,000-40,000 dollars.

 

[FX120]

Ill tell you what, you find me another camera that is offering 6k-28k quality and ill take that statement back. The bottom line is you will have a hard time finding anything above 4-5k. as I stated they are simply making cameras that have no competition.

As for your name calling and your insensitivity to mentally handicapped people, well that in itself speaks worlds about just what kind of person I am talking too.

The actual sensor resolution ISN'T THAT HIGH.

The FF35 sensor is 24MP

There is NOTHING amazing about their sensors. End of story.

Comparing it to Hasselblad makes no sense anyways considering the fact that their backs run 20,000-40,000 dollars.

The cost of the RED 645 body is estimated at $43,000. How does that not compare to the Hasselblad digital backs?

Stop arguing price? I am only answering posts directed at me and that post was referencing price. Sorry but when someone makes a post directed at me, I answer it. I know what the prices are as I already quoted them on this thread and your incorrect. You can get the fixed focal length model for 2500 and that comes as a complete kit, no other accessories needed. So when referring to this entire line of cameras, its starts at 2500 and again that is for a compete camera. So when people come in here and start attacking me because I made a post about a camera system that is too expensive for them to afford, yet in their signature they clearly state they own a Mark II and 3 Canon L lenses, well forgive me but I find that incredibly comical and I just cant help but respond.

That low end model only shoots 4MP stills, how is that in any way comparable to a Canon 5DmkII kit with a 24-105L, which shoots at 21MP, at the same price?

 

[OreoCookie]

The actual sensor resolution ISN'T THAT HIGH.

The FF35 sensor is 24MP

There is NOTHING amazing about their sensors. End of story.

Low-res medium format backs have the same resolution. Are they the same as a Canon 5D Mark II or a Nikon D3x?
Again, claiming there is nothing special about this system/sensors before seeing any tests is premature.

That low end model only shoots 4MP stills, how is that in any way comparable to a Canon 5DmkII kit with a 24-105L, which shoots at 21MP, at the same price?

Eeeh, it's also a professional digital movie camera (≠ camcorder). I doubt the low-end model sees much use as a digiback for stills. What's the point of comparing apples and oranges?

 

[FX120]

Low-res medium format backs have the same resolution. Are they the same as a Canon 5D Mark II or a Nikon D3x?
Again, claiming there is nothing special about this system/sensors before seeing any tests is premature.

Ready my post on the previous page and look at how I stated the exact same thing. The OP has claimed time and time again that they're "making" the most advanced cameras out there, when at this point they're still nothing more than renderings and type on a page, no one can make a judgement at this point.

Eeeh, it's also a professional digital movie camera (≠ camcorder). I doubt the low-end model sees much use as a digiback for stills. What's the point of comparing apples and oranges?

Which is my point, the OP brought up this model to excuse the price of the DSMC Scarlets, when they're not even comparable because it firstly, doesn't mount Canon or Nikon lenses, and secondly, it's too low of a resolution to be comparable.

 

[OreoCookie]

Ready my post on the previous page and look at how I stated the exact same thing. The OP has claimed time and time again that they're "making" the most advanced cameras out there, when at this point they're still nothing more than renderings and type on a page, no one can make a judgement at this point.

No, you said that `the technology is untested, unproven, etc.' when RED is a successful company in their market. They wouldn't be successful if they couldn't deliver image quality at a fraction of the price of professional movie cameras (which cost $100k+ apparently). In that respect, they're already making very advanced products. I have no doubt that their new brains will deliver very good IQ for stills as well. If you go up the chip sizes, you notice, they would have the highest-resolution medium format digiback (68 MP) and the highest-res sensor I've ever heard of (216 MP). (Not that this does any good for us mere mortals who don't want to sell an arm, a leg and a first-born, just for a camera brain. )

You treat RED as if it was a vapor ware company.

Which is my point, the OP brought up this model to excuse the price of the DSMC Scarlets, when they're not even comparable because it firstly, doesn't mount Canon or Nikon lenses, and secondly, it's too low of a resolution to be comparable.

RED cameras can mount both, Nikon and Canon lenses in addition to native RED mount lenses.

 

[FX120]

No, you said that `the technology is untested, unproven, etc.' when RED is a successful company in their market. They wouldn't be successful if they couldn't deliver image quality at a fraction of the price of professional movie cameras (which cost $100k+ apparently). In that respect, they're already making very advanced products. I have no doubt that their new brains will deliver very good IQ for stills as well. If you go up the chip sizes, you notice, they would have the highest-resolution medium format digiback (68 MP) and the highest-res sensor I've ever heard of (216 MP). (Not that this does any good for us mere mortals who don't want to sell an arm, a leg and a first-born, just for a camera brain. )

The newer sensors used in the Scarlet and Epic cameras (those are the ones we are talking about, right?) haven't been proven or tested. Also, in my experience with the RED One, I was not too wowed by it, especially considering that it crashed every 5-10 minutes while using it, and when we did get video out of it, while it was very high resolution, it had aliasing issues. So yes, I am sceptical about RED's ability to deliver on what they promise, mainly because they have yet to fully deliver on the original promise of the RED One. Furthermore, I am even more sceptical about their ability to deliver a serious DSLR competitor, with features like metering and AF done correctly.

You treat RED as if it was a vapor ware company.

I am treating these cameras as if they are products that do not currently exist, or have any published white papers on. And that is what they are.

RED cameras can mount both, Nikon and Canon lenses in addition to native RED mount lenses.

So the Scarlet 2/3, with it's fixed 8x lens, can accept Canon or Nikon lenses?

 

[Digital Skunk]

I can't believe we are still debating this.

The mount for Canon or Nikon cameras hasn't been priced yet, like much of the other attachments that will be needed.

The sensor hasn't been tested yet, so we can't say ANYTHING about IQ.

We WILL have to wait and see on the new bodies like the OP said. They are great choices if doing both high res HD and stills professionally are your thing.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

The actual sensor resolution ISN'T THAT HIGH.

The FF35 sensor is 24MP

There is NOTHING amazing about their sensors. End of story.


The cost of the RED 645 body is estimated at $43,000. How does that not compare to the Hasselblad digital backs?


That low end model only shoots 4MP stills, how is that in any way comparable to a Canon 5DmkII kit with a 24-105L, which shoots at 21MP, at the same price?

What are you talking about? Why in gods name are you using the FF35 sensor as a basis for what I was talking about. Try going back and re-reading the post you quoted me from and try and get a grip of what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about the FF35. I stated that I felt safe that Red wasn't going to go under because Red was making camera's that simply dont have any competition on the market. I didn't say that every single one of their camera's didn't have competition and more importantly I didn't say the FF35 didn't have any competition. It doesn't take a genius to figure out just what camera I was referring to since I gave you a HUGE HINT by stating the resolution I was talking about. I said 2-28k which means I was specifically talking about the Epic 617 Pro which has the 168x56mm Monstro Sensor and can shoot from 2k to 28k. Hell Even the Epic 645 Pro is untouchable at this point with 2k to 9k resolution. Again you find me some camera that are out or even coming out in the next 12 months that can compete with those resolutions and ill admit I was wrong. Until then quit twisting the argument by picking and choosing models that help fit your argument.

As for the cost of the Red 645 Body, Who cares if its 43,000. Once again your twisting all of this all around. Try going back and reading his post again. It was aimed at me and he was was arguing that if I had the money for a Red then why not by a Hasselblad or Mamiya. Sorry to say but I am not buying the 43,000 dollar 645 Pro. I am planning on buying the FF35 which in case you havent figured out is much much cheaper and doesn't even begin to compare with the price of a Hassselblad. A Hasselblad back is literally 2-4 times more expensive than the FF35. Besides if I were to buy a Hasselblad back I would have to buy a whole new body along with a whole new lens kit which would raise that price from 20-40 grand to around 60-100 grand. I already have all the lenses I need for both a Canon system and a Red system so those are the only legitimate options. Anything else would make absolutely ZERO sense.

Wow, talk about someone that literally cannot follow what anyone is talking about.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Ready my post on the previous page and look at how I stated the exact same thing. The OP has claimed time and time again that they're "making" the most advanced cameras out there, when at this point they're still nothing more than renderings and type on a page, no one can make a judgement at this point.



Which is my point, the OP brought up this model to excuse the price of the DSMC Scarlets, when they're not even comparable because it firstly, doesn't mount Canon or Nikon lenses, and secondly, it's too low of a resolution to be comparable.

LOL, in regards to resolution they are making the most advanced camera's out there and until you can produce some cameras that even come close to 9-28k, well your just blowing out hot air and your argument is incredibly flawed. You see your mistakingly twisting what I have said to mean their entire line of cameras is more advanced and I have never said anything close to that. In fact I have said many times that until these cameras are released and thoroughly tested we wont know how good they are and how well they match up against Canon and Nikon's high end bodies. So quit twisting what I have said and just accept the fact that the Epic 617 Pro and the Epic 645 Pro simply dont have any competition whatsoever on the market and most likely wont have any competition for quite some time to come.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I can't believe we are still debating this.

The mount for Canon or Nikon cameras hasn't been priced yet, like much of the other attachments that will be needed.

The sensor hasn't been tested yet, so we can't say ANYTHING about IQ.

We WILL have to wait and see on the new bodies like the OP said. They are great choices if doing both high res HD and stills professionally are your thing.

Actually the meaningful debate ended a long time ago. This thread has now degraded into a bunch of ridiculous posts that do nothing but twist what people have said into things that they didn't say. I appreciate the fact that at least you remember what I said accurately.

 

[ajpl]

I think the mistake some posters are making is that RED are not your typical company, they do not do things the conventional way and their goal is to make the best kit, not hit price points. The owner started the company as he was a keen film maker and photographer frustrated by the pathetic equipment designed by marketing departments and decided to build the best kit and at a price well below the competition. And with video cameras Jannard has revolutionized the market and RED are very probably why Canon and Nikon suddenly added video capabilities to their DSLRs [it was always possible before, but marketing didn't allow it].
The reason Jannard can do all this is because he is very, very rich having founded Oakley and made billions as a result.
The RED One camera that turned filmmaking upside down was also vapourware for a long time and the end users were instrumental it's development, as is very probably the case with the new DSLRs. And ironing out faults with early models, but unlike other companies, you knew it wasn't quite yet a finished product.

 

[OreoCookie]

The newer sensors used in the Scarlet and Epic cameras (those are the ones we are talking about, right?) haven't been proven or tested.

… all of which is fine. However …

I am treating these cameras as if they are products that do not currently exist, or have any published white papers on. And that is what they are.

… if this were Nikon, Canon, Leaf, Leica or Hasselblad, people wouldn't approach a newly announced product in the same way, they wouldn't say `oh, we don't know anything at all about this new sensor/camera, we can't know that it will be any good.' You're dismissing their announced products out of hand. If these companies announce a new product, it should (and mostly is) taken seriously. I think RED deserves some more credit here, that's all.

The OP is particularly enthusiastic about the system's modularity (which medium format manufacturers seem to have abandoned), not just about the brains. And yes, this is something the other manufacturers don't offer (for digital cameras, mind you). The OP has a large format camera already, so I assume he knows what he wants in his new camera (whatever he may end up choosing).

To be honest, I see Canon's move to integrate the ability to make movies into their new cameras as a reaction to RED's announcement. (Nikon has included this only in a consumer-class camera, so it remains to be seen if it is adopted across its dslr line-up in the futre, particularly in pro bodies. Canon's move took me by more surprise here: there is no real reason to include a shoddy movie mode into a pro body, it's not going to be a feature serious amateurs and professionals have been asking for.)

So the Scarlet 2/3, with it's fixed 8x lens, can accept Canon or Nikon lenses?

Are you trying to twist my words until something right comes out of it? I was responding to your claim that RED's announced brains (the ones this thread is about) cannot mount Nikon and Canon lenses. This is false, they can.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

I think the mistake some posters are making is that RED are not your typical company, they do not do things the conventional way and their goal is to make the best kit, not hit price points. The owner started the company as he was a keen film maker and photographer frustrated by the pathetic equipment designed by marketing departments and decided to build the best kit and at a price well below the competition. And with video cameras Jannard has revolutionized the market and RED are very probably why Canon and Nikon suddenly added video capabilities to their DSLRs [it was always possible before, but marketing didn't allow it].
The reason Jannard can do all this is because he is very, very rich having founded Oakley and made billions as a result.
The RED One camera that turned filmmaking upside down was also vapourware for a long time and the end users were instrumental it's development, as is very probably the case with the new DSLRs. And ironing out faults with early models, but unlike other companies, you knew it wasn't quite yet a finished product.

Great post and your absolutely correct. Its pretty obvious that is why Canon and Nikon started incorporating video and in all honesty it was the right thing to do. It would be incredibly stupid to write off the threat Red now poses to those companies high end clients.

This thread has clearly shown that people have much different beliefs on just how good they think these cameras will be and I for one respect everyone's opinion even if I dont agree with it. I think these camera will be amazing and am more than willing to pay the extra money if they are that good. If they end up being inferior to the other high end models from Canon then I will stick with Canon, its that simple. I am waiting until they have been tested thoroughly before making up my mind and the fact that they dont come out for a few more months gives me time to save up some of that extra cash.

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

Are you trying to twist my words until something right comes out of it? I was responding to your claim that RED's announced brains (the ones this thread is about) cannot mount Nikon and Canon lenses. This is false, they can.

Oreo dont even bother. This guy has tried to warp and twist everyones arguments from the get go and seems utterly incapable of reading a post accurately. Just look at the last 3-4 posts I have had to reply too. It appears we have a few members in here who either hate Red or are Canon or Nikon fanboys because they are saying whatever they can to discredit this new line of cameras, including twisting our statements into something completely different then what we originally said.

 

[Sdashiki]

I move to have this thread go private. I mean, its just the OP and a couple of other people posting one after another (sometimes right after themselves instead of amending a single post).

There is no information left in this topic.

 

[heron88]

OP obviously cannot handle being wrong. I wont even go into all the points he is wrong on. He has his mind set and no one is gonna change it. This thread should be deleted/locked. OP- Dont post here if you cant handle other peoples opinions/arguments. This is a forum, people express there arguments and opinions and if you are going to belittle every person that disagrees with you, you have no place on this board.

-heron

 

[GotMyOrangeCrus]

OP obviously cannot handle being wrong. I wont even go into all the points he is wrong on. He has his mind set and no one is gonna change it. This thread should be deleted/locked. OP- Dont post here if you cant handle other peoples opinions/arguments. This is a forum, people express there arguments and opinions and if you are going to belittle every person that disagrees with you, you have no place on this board.

-heron

You wont go into it because you full of it and cant disprove anything I have said. By the way stop trying to dictate how other people post. If you dont like a thread then stay out of it. If you dot like another member then ignore them. Its that easy. As is your post has easily become one of the most pointless posts made in this thread yet.

I actually started this thread with the best intentions of starting a discussion about this system and that was immediately derailed by people like yourself. You want to know why this thread has degraded into what it is. Look in the mirror. People coming in here and making BS posts and BS accusations when they have no interest in the cameras anyways. Just look at the very first response in this thread. Its someone basically accusing me of being full of it and having no real interest in this camera system, lol. Your post is another perfect example.

Then making BS statements about me being wrong and being 100% unable to back it up. Typical.