The subpixel-AA debacle and font rendering

[BohdanKolesnyk]

iMac 21.5, non-retina (late 2015)

Updated from Catalina to Big Sur recently, system font looks much clearer now. Maybe they have somehow changed San Francisco font, because the difference is perceptible. It is also noticeable, that in non-updated apps system font is much uglier (which is how it used to look on Catalina everywhere). On the screenshots there are Catalina-like (1) and Big Sur system font (2) in menu bar lists (sorry, it's in Cyrillic, but the difference is clearly seen). Also, there were really ugly fonts in Dictionary.app, but now they are acceptable. All in all, Big Sur is better here for me

 

[mstipic]

I noticed Big Sur has better font rendering, especially in light mode. Good job Apple engs.!

 

[pizzabox]

Just updated, 1080p native looks horrible.

I just played around with someone else's update and I can co-sign this. Really amazing how Apple trashes its users' hardware like this.

 

[meteoreos]

I'm running Big Sur on my 1440p Dell U2520D at 2048 x 1152 (One Key HiDPI) and it looks great apart from a little bit of blurring. Is there anything else I can do to make this as good as it can possibly get on a 1440p monitor?

 

[Minga089]

I'm running Big Sur on my 1440p Dell U2520D at 2048 x 1152 (One Key HiDPI) and it looks great apart from a little bit of blurring. Is there anything else I can do to make this as good as it can possibly get on a 1440p monitor?

No. Imo it doesn't get any better with a 1440p monitor in MacOS than in 2048x1152 HiDPI. I am still on Catalina but I disabled font smoothing and that improved the fonts even a little bit more. Don't know if it's the same with Big Sur.

 

[Jassbag]

Quick question for macOS running in 2048x1152 HiDPI mode:

Is YouTube playing videos in 4K with "auto" quality selected when fullscreen? I.e. "Stats for nerds" (right click menu option on the player) shows 4096 x 2304 for viewport resolution?

 

[meteoreos]

No. Imo it doesn't get any better with a 1440p monitor in MacOS than in 2048x1152 HiDPI. I am still on Catalina but I disabled font smoothing and that improved the fonts even a little bit more. Don't know if it's the same with Big Sur.

It looks great, but that little bit of blurring makes my eyes hurt after a while. I prefer the lowest setting for font smoothing.

I was looking to purchase the LG Ultrafine 23.7 but would that be any better for text sharpness? There appears to be a lack of suitable (retina) monitors for MacOS

 

[Minga089]

It looks great, but that little bit of blurring makes my eyes hurt after a while. I prefer the lowest setting for font smoothing.

I was looking to purchase the LG Ultrafine 23.7 but would that be any better for text sharpness? There appears to be a lack of suitable (retina) monitors for MacOS

Unfortunately you have to live with the blurring of 1440p monitors in MacOS and with a 24" one it won't get better than with 2048x1152 HiDPI. Yes, the LG Ultrafine will be a lot better in terms of sharpness and actually close to your internal retina screen.

 

[vitamins]

I'm running Big Sur on my 1440p Dell U2520D at 2048 x 1152 (One Key HiDPI) and it looks great apart from a little bit of blurring. Is there anything else I can do to make this as good as it can possibly get on a 1440p monitor?

Have you already tried playing around with the sharpness? In the DELL monitor menu you go to: Display > Sharpness.

I have the same monitor and I can't see the 'Scaled Text' options if I use a USB-C cable. With the Apple Multiport adapter + HDMI cable I can see them.

Are you using the USB-C cable which came with your monitor?

 

[meteoreos]

Have you already tried playing around with the sharpness? In the DELL monitor menu you go to: Display > Sharpness.

I have the same monitor and I can't see the 'Scaled Text' options if I use a USB-C cable. With the Apple Multiport adapter + HDMI cable I can see them.

Are you using the USB-C cable which came with your monitor?

Yes, I’m using the supplied USB-C cable from Dell. Does your method provide better results than if you were using the USB-C?

 

[vitamins]

Yes, I’m using the supplied USB-C cable from Dell. Does your method provide better results than if you were using the USB-C?

Yes, actually is looks much sharper now (after the 11.1 > 11.2 update). the 'looks like 1080p' option is the closest I get to my MacBook built-in display.

I took some pictures of the screen.
This is the 'looks like 1080p' option:

This is the native resolution (1440p):

The text in the native resolution is too small to my eyes, considering the distance I keep from the monitor.


And this is how 2048x1152 looks to me (using the usb-c cable):

In reality the difference is more obvious, but check for example the a's in 'Safari' and compare the first to the third picture.

The first configuration is only possible if I use the Multiport adapter.
Using the Multiport adapter, those are my options:

And this is how it looks like if I connect my MacBook using the USB-C cable:

Would you mind checking if you have 'Text Scaled resolutions' with your USB-C cable?

In my case, I guess it is only possible to scale down to 1080p because the Multiport adapter somehow 'unlocks' a 3840 x 2160 option (which is 4k, but my monitor is actually not?!). The maximal resolution available under USB-C is 2560 x 1440. Tbh I don't quite understand what is happening.

 

[meteoreos]

Cheers for your reply. Have you installed anything to enable HiDPI? The 2048 x 1152 option looks way better with One Key HiDPI than it does without.

This is what my Display preference menu looks like with One Key HiDPI enabled:



And this is what the menu looks like without One Key HiDPI:



IF you haven't got anything installed that enables HiDPI, could you install and see if it's the same?

Edit: HDR can be enabled through the Dell settings menu.

 

[vitamins]

Cheers for your reply. Have you installed anything to enable HiDPI? You also seem to have an option to enable HDR, which I do not for some reason. The 2048 x 1152 option looks way better with One Key HiDPI than it does without.

This is what my Display preference menu looks like with One Key HiDPI enabled:

View attachment 1724219

And this is what the menu looks like without One Key HiDPI:

View attachment 1724224

IF you haven't got anything installed that enables HiDPI, could you install and see if it's the same?

I haven't installed anything to enable HiDPI. In my case, yesterday's update to 11.2 enabled the 'scale text' options.

Here are more things I found out:
1) I can only scale the text if my monitor shows the 3840 x 2160 resolution (due to the 2x factor required to scale down to 1080. I guess this application you are using is 'forcing' a different scale factor between 1 and 2?).

2) 3840 x 2160 is only visible if Smart HDR is turned on. I can turn it on/off by going to the DELL monitor menu under Display > Smart HDR. I chose the option 'Desktop'. If you turn Smart HDR on when the MacBook is connected through a HDMI cable, you will notice your color format will change from YPbPr to RGB. Depending on your eyes, you will notice a slightly better color contrast and sharpness.

3) None of this works for me if I'm using the USB-C cable (and no adapter). 3840 x 2160 is gone, color format is set back to YPbPr, and I can't scale the text to 1080p anymore.

I'm talking to DELL right now. My bet is the USB-C cable is somehow faulty, or unable to display a higher resolution. I can see from your screenshot that you can't choose 3840 x 2160 as well.

 

[meteoreos]

I haven't installed anything to enable HiDPI. In my case, yesterday's update to 11.2 enabled the 'scale text' options.

Here are more things I found out:
1) I can only scale the text if my monitor shows the 3840 x 2160 resolution (due to the 2x factor required to scale down to 1080. I guess this application you are using is 'forcing' a different scale factor between 1 and 2?).

2) 3840 x 2160 is only visible if Smart HDR is turned on. I can turn it on/off by going to the DELL monitor menu under Display > Smart HDR. I chose the option 'Desktop'. If you turn Smart HDR on when the MacBook is connected through a HDMI cable, you will notice your color format will change from YPbPr to RGB. Depending on your eyes, you will notice a slightly better color contrast and sharpness.

3) None of this works for me if I'm using the USB-C cable (and no adapter). 3840 x 2160 is gone, color format is set back to YPbPr, and I can't scale the text to 1080p anymore.

I'm talking to DELL right now. My bet is the USB-C cable is somehow faulty, or unable to display a higher resolution. I can see from your screenshot that you can't choose 3840 x 2160 as well.

Thank you for this. I may just purchase the Multiport Adapter so I can use HDR as this is not available with the HiDPI software modification. Just out of curiosity (and the fact that we have the same monitor) what is your configuration like in the Dell menu i.e. sharpness, contrast? Edit: what about your font smoothing preference?

 

[vitamins]

Thank you for this. I may just purchase the Multiport Adapter so I can use HDR as this is not available with the HiDPI software modification. Just out of curiosity (and the fact that we have the same monitor) what is your configuration like in the Dell menu i.e. sharpness, contrast? Edit: what about your font smoothing preference?

Maybe a third party adapter would work as well, but I can only test with the Apple one. HDMI + Adapter is surely much better than my previous setting, but one of the reasons I bought this specific monitor was the data ports + charging capabilities. I actually want to use the USB-C function.

Brightness/contrast are both set to 70%. In a dark room that might be a little too bright, but most of the time I'm staring at a dark themed editor so ?‍♂️

Color preset mode is set to standard, and color format, as I said, RGB.

Display > Sharpness is a little trickier. In light mode, a lower sharpness might be more pleasant to look at. In dark mode you might want full 100% sharpness.
SmartHDR is set to desktop, but being honest, I couldn't tell a difference to, say, 'Display' or any other option.

 

[VoidList]

Maybe a third party adapter would work as well, but I can only test with the Apple one. HDMI + Adapter is surely much better than my previous setting, but one of the reasons I bought this specific monitor was the data ports + charging capabilities. I actually want to use the USB-C function.

Brightness/contrast are both set to 70%. In a dark room that might be a little too bright, but most of the time I'm staring at a dark themed editor so ?‍♂️

Color preset mode is set to standard, and color format, as I said, RGB.

Display > Sharpness is a little trickier. In light mode, a lower sharpness might be more pleasant to look at. In dark mode you might want full 100% sharpness.
SmartHDR is set to desktop, but being honest, I couldn't tell a difference to, say, 'Display' or any other option.

I’m on the verge of ordering a Dell U2520D because it seems to be the perfect size with the perfect features for my context. But all the talks in this thread and elsewhere made me a bit wary. Are you happy with this display while running Big Sur 11.2? Did Big Sur made a difference? Is the picture good using this display now?

I would be using this display with a HDMI-HDMI connection on a MacBook Pro 2015. Big Sur 11.2. It’s to be used as my main display. Thanks for your help!

 

[vitamins]

I’m on the verge of ordering a Dell U2520D because it seems to be the perfect size with the perfect features for my context. But all the talks in this thread and elsewhere made me a bit wary. Are you happy with this display while running Big Sur 11.2? Did Big Sur made a difference? Is the picture good using this display now?

I would be using this display with a HDMI-HDMI connection on a MacBook Pro 2015. Big Sur 11.2. It’s to be used as my main display. Thanks for your help!

What features are you looking for? Since you mentioned you want to use it with HDMI-HDMI: remember you are also paying for the USB-C capability (charging, docks, etc...). This monitor is less valuable if you don't use those features at all.

I can compare it to my LG UL850, because they cost nearly the same: color is noticeably more vivid than on the DELL. It matches almost perfectly the colors displayed on the built-in MacBook display. The LG gives you less vibrant and warmer colors (for example, the dark theme, which is close to dark gray/black on the MacBook, is kinda 'brownish' on the LG display). The DELL is also much brighter. I couldn't imagine a situation where I would go 100% with brightness. 100% brightness on the LG is equivalent to around 70% on this DELL model.

Talking about resolution in general, text sharpness, and so on: a 4K screen with approx. 160 dpi is much sharper than the DELL (117 dpi). I can run scaled 1440p or 1080p on the LG 27" and it will be much sharper than the DELL at native 1440p or scaled 1080p. You can compare it to the other photos I uploaded previously:

It is much much closer to the MacBook retina feeling. If you value text sharpness and like the retina resolution on your Mac, I would opt for a 27" 4K monitor.

I tried to mention what I like about both displays, but considering my usage, text sharpness is much more important. The LG wins every time. Considering that a 4K monitor costs nearly the same, I would probably never choose the DELL again. Text fuzziness is just so distracting, once you are used to high dpi.

 

[meteoreos]

I’m on the verge of ordering a Dell U2520D because it seems to be the perfect size with the perfect features for my context. But all the talks in this thread and elsewhere made me a bit wary. Are you happy with this display while running Big Sur 11.2? Did Big Sur made a difference? Is the picture good using this display now?

I would be using this display with a HDMI-HDMI connection on a MacBook Pro 2015. Big Sur 11.2. It’s to be used as my main display. Thanks for your help!

I can echo @vitamins experience with the U2520D. It’s a good monitor, but I just wish that the text was a little sharper.

AFAIK, what you want (for the best external monitor experience on MacOS) is either:
- 4K 21.5” LG Ultrafine (discontinued)
- 5K 27” LG Ultrafine (discontinued?)
- Apple’s own Pro XDR, which isn’t exactly affordable for most people.

From what I’ve gathered, Apple might be releasing a more affordable display soon, so that’s what I’m waiting for. The other options on the market are not a major upgrade from what I already have in my preferred size range (25 inch or less).

 

[MacBird]

I can echo @vitamins experience with the U2520D. It’s a good monitor, but I just wish that the text was a little sharper.

AFAIK, what you want (for the best external monitor experience on MacOS) is either:
- 4K 21.5” LG Ultrafine (discontinued)
- 5K 27” LG Ultrafine (discontinued?)
- Apple’s own Pro XDR, which isn’t exactly affordable for most people.

From what I’ve gathered, Apple might be releasing a more affordable display soon, so that’s what I’m waiting for. The other options on the market are not a major upgrade from what I already have in my preferred size range (25 inch or less).

I'm wondering if it might be best to give up on finding a good monitor and just get a new iMac once it will be released.

 

[vitamins]

I'm wondering if it might be best to give up on finding a good monitor and just get a new iMac once it will be released.

It depends on what you consider a good monitor. Some MacBook users are ok with an external monitor such as 1080p on 24''. If you already own a MacBook, that's a very inexpensive extension.

In my opinion 4K on a 27'' monitor is the closest you could get at the lower price range. Next level would be a 5K Ultrafine, but in this case I might as well just get an iMac, if all I want is a bigger single retina monitor.

 

[Minga089]

It depends on what you consider a good monitor. Some MacBook users are ok with an external monitor such as 1080p on 24''. If you already own a MacBook, that's a very inexpensive extension.

In my opinion 4K on a 27'' monitor is the closest you could get at the lower price range. Next level would be a 5K Ultrafine, but in this case I might as well just get an iMac, if all I want is a bigger single retina monitor.

27" 4K is totally fine for the majority of Mac of users.

 

[jjacobi]

I've been using Big Sur on the LG 24 4K and a M1 Mini and I was thinking enough about the fonts seeming sharper to search on the subject. Speaking of which, this is purely subjective. BTW, I very much like this display. Almost better than the 27-inch 5K on the iMacs I use at home.

 

[meteoreos]

I'm wondering if it might be best to give up on finding a good monitor and just get a new iMac once it will be released.

If the rumours are to be believed, Apple should be releasing a more affordable monitor later this year (affordable relative to the XDR, anyway)

 

[chacrat]

Mac mini running latest Big Sur on my Dell P3421W (3840 x 1440).
Is it me or is there no effect at all ?

 

[VoidList]

What features are you looking for? Since you mentioned you want to use it with HDMI-HDMI: remember you are also paying for the USB-C capability (charging, docks, etc...). This monitor is less valuable if you don't use those features at all.

I can compare it to my LG UL850, because they cost nearly the same: color is noticeably more vivid than on the DELL. It matches almost perfectly the colors displayed on the built-in MacBook display. The LG gives you less vibrant and warmer colors (for example, the dark theme, which is close to dark gray/black on the MacBook, is kinda 'brownish' on the LG display). The DELL is also much brighter. I couldn't imagine a situation where I would go 100% with brightness. 100% brightness on the LG is equivalent to around 70% on this DELL model.

Talking about resolution in general, text sharpness, and so on: a 4K screen with approx. 160 dpi is much sharper than the DELL (117 dpi). I can run scaled 1440p or 1080p on the LG 27" and it will be much sharper than the DELL at native 1440p or scaled 1080p. You can compare it to the other photos I uploaded previously:

View attachment 1727948

It is much much closer to the MacBook retina feeling. If you value text sharpness and like the retina resolution on your Mac, I would opt for a 27" 4K monitor.

I tried to mention what I like about both displays, but considering my usage, text sharpness is much more important. The LG wins every time. Considering that a 4K monitor costs nearly the same, I would probably never choose the DELL again. Text fuzziness is just so distracting, once you are used to high dpi.

I can echo @vitamins experience with the U2520D. It’s a good monitor, but I just wish that the text was a little sharper.

AFAIK, what you want (for the best external monitor experience on MacOS) is either:
- 4K 21.5” LG Ultrafine (discontinued)
- 5K 27” LG Ultrafine (discontinued?)
- Apple’s own Pro XDR, which isn’t exactly affordable for most people.

From what I’ve gathered, Apple might be releasing a more affordable display soon, so that’s what I’m waiting for. The other options on the market are not a major upgrade from what I already have in my preferred size range (25 inch or less).

Thanks for your help. I abandoned the idea of buying a U2520D, and I ended up ordering an "older" Dell P2415Q. 4K 60Hz on a 24 inch. It was a bit more expensive, but it's working very well. No USB-C capabilities, but like you suggested I wouldn't have used it anyway. I ended up using a Mini-DisplayPort to DisplayPort cable, and everything is looking very good. As clear as on the Macbook Pro retina display. I'm very happy with my purchase.