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The war between professionals and consumers

If you really think Apple's "Big Mac" is their Mac Pro then I'd start looking at their sales numbers. I'm pretty confident that when consumers think of Apple the products that come to mind are probably in this order:

1) iPad
2) iPhone
3) Macbook Air
4) Macbook Pro
5) iPod

I HIGHLY doubt that ANY consumer will EVER say to themselves "I want an iPad, but I better check to see if they have a professional 'flag ship' computer before I buy it. They don't have one? Well there's no way I'm buying this now!"

I don't want to see the Mac Pro die either, but if I was running a company I could see the logic in letting it go once I had Thunderbolt.
 
kevinfulton.ca said:
If you really think Apple's "Big Mac" is their Mac Pro then I'd start looking at their sales numbers. I'm pretty confident that when consumers think of Apple the products that come to mind are probably in this order:

1) iPad
2) iPhone
3) Macbook Air
4) Macbook Pro
5) iPod

I HIGHLY doubt that ANY consumer will EVER say to themselves "I want an iPad, but I better check to see if they have a professional 'flag ship' computer before I buy it. They don't have one? Well there's no way I'm buying this now!"

I don't want to see the Mac Pro die either, but if I was running a company I could see the logic in letting it go once I had Thunderbolt.
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Of course they don´t think that way, they FEEL it.

If Apple would never had the Pro lines, the iPads and whatnots wouldn´t be selling that good. Again, it´s about the high status image and iPads and iPhones won´t have image that just by themselves, it huge partly because of the Pro lines.
 
ApplesAOranges said:
Of course they don´t think that way, they FEEL it.

If Apple would never had the Pro lines, the iPads and whatnots wouldn´t be selling that good. Again, it´s about the high status image and iPads and iPhones won´t have image that just by themselves, it huge partly because of the Pro lines.
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Where do you get that? Really? It seems like you got caught in some kind of RDF. Do you have some kind of statistical and empirical evidence, or do you just FEEL that?
 
ApplesAOranges said:
Of course they don´t think that way, they FEEL it.

If Apple would never had the Pro lines, the iPads and whatnots wouldn´t be selling that good. Again, it´s about the high status image and iPads and iPhones won´t have image that just by themselves, it huge partly because of the Pro lines.
Click to expand...

Lol! I there's no shaking you is there lol! ;) Well believe what you want man. I'm very confident that the reason that people feel the way they do about ALL Apple products has nothing to do with their top of the line, but everything to do with how they present ALL of their products in their marketing. They tend to put most of their marketing dollars into their most innovative products (iPod, iPhone, iPad, MBA) which tend to be closer to entry level because those are the products that new customers are most likely to buy. They are the most affordable and they are also the "COOLEST" products on the market. Once the new client is in the ecosystem it's game over because ALL of their products have the same high quality. Sorry man, but the Mac Pro has nothing to do with attracting new consumers, unless those consumers need professional features. Which the vast majority don't. Watch their ads carefully. They focus on the day to day users and are brilliant!
 
And what exactly is Apples hardware preventing you from doing? Here's what I do on my Mac Pro and it works flawlessly:

-Maya
-ZBrush
-Houdini
-Unity 3D
-Real Flow
-Blender
-Corel Painter
-Photoshop
-Illustrator
-After Effects
-Logic
-XCode
-Sketchbook Pro
-VMWare
-Adobe Premier
-Aperture

and a slew of other programs. If those aren't considered "pro" use programs I don't know what is.

As for multiple monitors it works fine in Lion. What people complain about is the fact that full screen apps do what they are supposed to, fill the screen. Some apps take advantage of this (like Keynote) where the second monitor will have stuff on it. Other apps don't so its just a black screen.

What people need to be asking Apple is for a setting that locks full screen apps to one monitor or all monitors, which would prevent the complaining you hear about regarding full screen apps and multiple monitors.
 
chrono1081 said:
As for multiple monitors it works fine in Lion. What people complain about is the fact that full screen apps do what they are supposed to, fill the screen. Some apps take advantage of this (like Keynote) where the second monitor will have stuff on it. Other apps don't so its just a black screen.

What people need to be asking Apple is for a setting that locks full screen apps to one monitor or all monitors, which would prevent the complaining you hear about regarding full screen apps and multiple monitors.
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Hahahah ok that´s the case then, but another good example where Apple is simply not thinking... in this case people who use multiple monitors = the professionals. Very sad and amateurish programming, Apple is losing it.

I can´t stand what Apple is becoming. A toy company for the average Joes. :mad:
 
War between professionals and consumers? The only war is between professionals and Apple.
 
The way the Mac Mini and iMac are moving the Mac Pro is approaching extinction. With Ivy Bridge and Thunderbolt RAID storage will be a possibility for the Mini and iMac. The high end iMacs could gain some customisation options to match the Pro in a few years.

But not yet. I think the Mac Pro is needed at least another 2 or 3 years. It does need a new update to once again set it firmly at the top of the Apple hierarchy.

All in all though, you reckon there's a war between the consumer and the professional? Consider instead that the consumer is becoming more professional and the professional is meeting him/her in the middle. FCP X was deemed a step up from Final Cut Express 4 but a step down from Final Cut Pro 7. So it's in use by more consumers/advanced hobbyists than FCP 7 was. Meh.

The pro's winning this war because consumers' performance is approaching yours. But meanwhile the pro's being stabbed in the back by their software becoming more intuitive so it's understandable by a consumer. So suddenly, because anyone can use it, the software's no longer professional. It doesn't need a 12 core processor to run so if Apple kill of the 12 core pro you'll say they're neglecting their pro market. :rolleyes:
 
The only real sting in all this was Apple riding on the backs of professional evangelists for years while their market share was in the toilet and no one cared. Only later are the Pro's ditched and ousted not unlike the ol' 3rd party Mac Stores that are now out of business due to the "Wow" factor of the Apple Store in the Mall. "Thanks for the free help and marketing to your friends and family, now go out and buy stuff you won't truly own on our corporate consumption portals"
But truly all this is a bit over the top and premature. Pro isn't dead for Apple it has just been removed and not replaced:rolleyes:
 
Guys correct me if I`m wrong but isn`t the PC market pretty big. I mean the Dell`s and the like that are upgradeable towers. I would think that they sell a ton of those and not to only professionals but to gamers and everyone who likes a decent computer. So I can`t see apple not going after this market with some remake of the mac pro or some other name. I know a lot of people who have machines like this so why does the Mac Pro have to fit in the PRO category. I`m not a pro and I wouldn`t buy an iMac for my use even though we have two iMacs in the house. A slew of iPhones iPods Mac laptops. Im just saying that with the new Mac Pro (if there is one coming) why not go after these buyers also. Im not taking sides here so don`t hunt me down and kill me.I`m just wondering about this.
 
ApplesAOranges said:
Hahahah ok that´s the case then, but another good example where Apple is simply not thinking... in this case people who use multiple monitors = the professionals. Very sad and amateurish programming, Apple is losing it.

I can´t stand what Apple is becoming. A toy company for the average Joes. :mad:
Click to expand...

Well, I wouldn't say they aren't thinking, I'd say more people don't use a computer as heavy as they think they do if they can get away with running one program in full screen.

Although I would love an option to lock full screen apps to one screen (and sent my feedback to Apple regarding this) I would actually rarely use it. I have two 27 inch monitors and they are filled with multiple programs constantly, so full screen really would only apply when I have no other work to do. A lot of others would be in the same boat.

A typical desktop for me is usually Maya, Photoshop, Unity 3D, and Safari (for reference images). I couldn't use full screen because I wouldn't be able to see the other programs (and everyone knows Maya's windows don't play nice with multiple desktops).

If more programs took advantage of the blank desktop space thats one thing, but most do not.
 
I think the connection the OP is making here is pretty clear. The Apple "ecosystem" is entirely dependent on "pros". People who make iOS apps etc.

If they keep treating these "pros" like they are second rate citizens, they will eventually leave. Over time the ecosystem dries up, and Apple's great success goes with it. Of course this is a long term scenario, but it's a real one without question.

Google and MS aren't going to stop competing. Look at the meteoric progress in Android compared to iOS, or how "user friendly" MS is making W8, in a market they already dominate. Apple can't just decide the smartest and brightest users they have aren't important. It is certainly a recipe for disaster.

What's funny is, it's gross negligence. It would take such little relative effort to make the Mac Pro highly desirable. Maybe it doesn't sell in high numbers because they treat it like garbage.

Small addendum: It could also be that Apple thinks the form factor just doesn't need to exist really. Ivy Bridge seems like it will be a nice reduction in TDP, built in graphics are getting better, surely video card chips will continue to get more powerful and efficient. SSD's will become standards, external ports will be super fast. It's entirely possible the Mac Mini form factor will be able to be a beast of a machine in a few years. Computers used to fill entire rooms after all. I think the bigger issue is the perception of how Apple sees the market, and their complete lack of communication and attention to the pro market.
 
I think the issue with "where is the next Mac Pro" revolves around how to implement Thunderbolt, and not just a case of a few new ports on the back (or front). New Mac pros would presumable have to cater for the new Thunderbolt displays and would need to provide all functionality to the ports on the back of that display. As far as I know the dedicated graphics cards that are available would not be compatible with this sort of set up so what we have at the moment is a design quandary that Apple are addressing, have addressed or have decided not to tackle at all because it may be to complicated to resolve.

The outcome of this is that Apple may be about to introduce something radical in terms of how pro desktops with attached screens work and look or, they may just figure out how to shoe horn the thunderbolt/monitor functionality into the current form factor of the Mac Pro with an additional adaptor, or they may just decide that they are going to drop the whole pro desktop paradigm altogether. Whether they try to move the pro arena to the high end iMacs or the MacBook Pros is yet to be seen. What we do know is that Apple does all this stuff with secrecy so we have to wait and see.

I am now going to give my own silly comparison but it is funny. Apparently there were a lot of upset farmers in Finland when Nokia started making mobile phones and stopped making wellies (wellingtons in case you yanks think I might be saying something rude :p) Nokia destroyed the pro footware business
 
Dell and HP likely sell less of each workstation than Apple does and their refresh cycles are much more aggressive. If they can continue to support those product lines, I don't see why Apple can't. Even if it doesn't make them as much money as their other products.

I'm pretty sure that they are now selling more Mac Pros than ever before even if the sales growth is not as impressive as with the mobile line.
 
Personally, if you ask me to name the signature apple computer, it would be the imac, and not the mac pro. For me, that was this PC which got me to jump over to apple. :p

I doubt many people have actually heard of a mac pro. Mention one to them, and they will probably think it is an abbreviation for macbook pro.
 
Abazigal said:
Personally, if you ask me to name the signature apple computer, it would be the imac, and not the mac pro. For me, that was this PC which got me to jump over to apple. :p

I doubt many people have actually heard of a mac pro. Mention one to them, and they will probably think it is an abbreviation for macbook pro.
Click to expand...

same.

but the imac is for the prosumer / casual pro not the pro who is getting paid and needs stuff done in tight deeadlines.

If the OS gets even more ios, then my mac pro will be running windows and adobe cs xx master collection.. i dont care, whatever i can do my work on
 
Abazigal said:
Personally, if you ask me to name the signature apple computer, it would be the imac, and not the mac pro. For me, that was this PC which got me to jump over to apple. :p

I doubt many people have actually heard of a mac pro. Mention one to them, and they will probably think it is an abbreviation for macbook pro.
Click to expand...

Absolutely true. Everytime I'm in the apple store it's TONS of laptop shoppers, a few imac shoppers, and maybe one guy or nobody standing next to the only mac pro in the shop.

Now me personally my first mac was a mac pro and I will always buy mac pro for myself because for video and photo editing I need every bit of HP I can get, but don't kid yourselves it's a very tiny fraction of what they sell.
 
grahamnp said:
Dell and HP likely sell less of each workstation than Apple does...
Click to expand...
Actually, this isn't the case.

Take a look here. Granted, this is from 2009, but Apple's not magically able to defy the workstation market trends, particularly when you consider their MSRP on the base models (particularly on the base SP system, which is on avg. ~$1k more than what HP or Dell sells a similar system for <SP system, such as a Dell T3500, running a W3630>).

grahamnp said:
I'm pretty sure that they are now selling more Mac Pros than ever before even if the sales growth is not as impressive as with the mobile line.
Click to expand...
Again, this isn't likely, as the traditional workstation market is actually shrinking (also mentioned in the link above). :eek:

The primary reason behind it is that other products now offer sufficient performance for some that previously had to buy workstations for performance, and don't need a particular feature that only a Xeon can offer (i.e. user requires ECC memory, or capacities not possible via any other Intel CPU series). Consumer socket parts have gained enough performance some have been able to shift their purchase target.
 
grahamnp said:
Dell and HP likely sell less of each workstation than Apple does and their refresh cycles are much more aggressive.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be so sure there. Dell workstations are quite popular. They have a lot of features that simply aren't available for the mac pro, and many things that are much more expensive to implement on the mac pro. Just to provide a couple examples they have machines with eSATA as a baseline option, more usb/firewire ports overall, SAS drive options supported by the default drive controller, and a better gpu selection (although the mac pro has gotten a bit better in this regard). I think part of the issue with Apple is that their other products have just really outpaced the mac pro on growth, as is mentioned in several posts in this thread.

TennisandMusic said:
Ivy Bridge seems like it will be a nice reduction in TDP, built in graphics are getting better, surely video card chips will continue to get more powerful and efficient. SSD's will become standards, external ports will be super fast. It's entirely possible the Mac Mini form factor will be able to be a beast of a machine in a few years. Computers used to fill entire rooms after all. I think the bigger issue is the perception of how Apple sees the market, and their complete lack of communication and attention to the pro market.
Click to expand...

I predicted a while ago that Apple might keep the mini looking about the same, continue to thin out their laptop line, and wait for the hardware to sort of scale down to the mini. I'd like to mention with Ivy Bridge the real wattage reduction estimates are all over the board, but it seems to be that the more power hungry chips are going down in max tdp with many of the lower ones remaining about the same. The 45W chips lost 10W at most and the 95W chips were going to 77 according to a couple articles on the tech sites.

I would really like it if Apple eased off the obsession with making everything as thin as possible and allowed for a machine that could run at maximum load for hours without nearing its thermal envelope. Currently they throttle down when they get too hot, or the fans kick way up. I'm sure many users would prefer a more stable machine over a machine that is a few millimeters thinner. In the example of the imac, you don't even gain any desk space by losing a quarter inch worth of density. I really can't see why anyone would care.
 
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