MP All Models Thinking about finally upgrading my 5,1 MacPro to a Mac Studio. Change my Mind.

[AnimeFunTv]

You could look into QEMU/UTM to emulate x86

I did look into that. Unfortunately, 3D games may or may not work under QEMU/UTM. I know there is also CrossOver, which I've used in the past, but results vary. Another thing is there hasn't been (or possibly never will be) an app that would emulate older MacOS games/apps before Apple forced everyone to switch to 64bit apps. Thats why I sometimes run MacOS 10.7 in VM to get around that.

 

[MarkC426]

Do I need a high-end GPU like before?

The Mac Studio Max with 32gpu has a higher metal score than an RX580.....

 

[AnimeFunTv]

I did look into that. Unfortunately, 3D games may or may not work under QEMU/UTM. I know there is also CrossOver, which I've used in the past, but results vary. Another thing is there hasn't been (or possibly never will be) an app that would emulate older MacOS games/apps before Apple forced everyone to switch to 64bit apps.

The Mac Studio Max with 32gpu has a higher metal score than an RX580.....

Oh, I'm sure it does. ? I think that would be the biggest drawback is the inability to VM/Emu older OS's to play some vintage games that I still play. Pretty much every other app is Apple Silicon ready.

 

[bsbeamer]

If I can provide one piece of advice after running or keeping a slew of "ancient" Mac towers in production studios alive over more years than I care to count - don't buy a new machine to run old versions of software, especially when it has a completely different CPU architecture.

You can cobble solutions together, but once something transitions to legacy support, the clock has already been ticking. You need to decide to move on or figure out compatible solutions to keep the current stuff going. Running games has to be easier to figure out than the Octane/Octane2 days with Autodesk and SCSI RAIDs and somehow trying to transition to HD on SD hardware.

Many trying to run older Intel Mac software on 10+ year old machines would probably be fine with one last Intel Mac Mini as their stopgap.

 

[SpotOnT]

I just wanted to second the recommendation above.

Keeping the need to run older software and newer software separate will lead to a much better solution than trying to figure out how to keep one device to control it all. In short, if you need to use newer versions of macOS to keep up to date and sync all your devices in the Apple ecosystem etc. get a new Mac. If you want to run older software, plan on using an older Mac.

Keeping the needs separate also can lead to smarter purchasing decisions. For example, if you plan on keeping your 5,1 around to play old games and run VM, maybe you can get by with a M1 Mac Mini for your new Mac rather going for the M1 Ultra Studio. Or perhaps selling your 5,1 and purchasing both the current Intel Mac Mini and the M1 Max Studio would be better solution for your long term needs than getting the M1 Ultra Studio.

Personally, I have been keeping my 6,1 on macOS Sierra, to maintain compatibility with some 32-bit drivers and custom external hardware. For keeping up to date with the latest version of macOS, I have a MacBook Pro. Not having to use the MacBook Pro to run the external hardware has meant that I have been able to buy a lower spec'd MacBook Pro that I would have needed to if I didn't have the 6,1 around.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You’re crazy not to wait a few months and see what the new Mac Pro looks like. very likely it will just confirm the decision to get the Mac studio. But the Mac studio is worse than a trash can Mac or even older Mac mini’s. No ram upgrades. No storage upgrades.

In some ways it’s a Mac mini minus pro.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

You’re crazy not to wait a few months and see what the new Mac Pro looks like. very likely it will just confirm the decision to get the Mac studio. But the Mac studio is worse than a trash can Mac or even older Mac mini’s. No ram upgrades. No storage upgrades.

In some ways it’s a Mac mini minus pro.

Oh, I'll wait.

The biggie for me is not really ram upgrades or storage anymore, but more of my VM's.

That aside, my MacPro is fully maxed out with ram and the apps I use don't even remotely come close to using all of it.

Now and days I don't even put all my stuff in a single drive anymore but multiple, my 1TB NVMe only has 100gb used and thats including all the apps and the OS.

So really for myself, a lot has changed over 15+ years of what my needs are. Yeah, its awesome to be able to upgrade later down the road say in 5+ years with new CPU's, Memory and graphics when prices come down. Which I was able to do with my 2006 MacPro model before replaced it with my current MacPro and I was able to max everything out on it too.

Again, when the trash can MacPro came out I was disappointed of the lack of Modular components. That was in 2013. I think it was too soon for something like that.

Now? With the spec's and performance, the lifetime of Mac Studio should outlast any upgrades needed for 10+ years.

 

[bsbeamer]

the lifetime of Mac Studio should outlast any upgrades needed for 10+ years.

This can be a slippery slope with expectations. While the hardware can/might/will function after that time, there is no guarantee on security updates, vulnerability patches, or even a timeline when the system will be EOL'd by Apple and make it ineligible for future OS versions.

Many are assuming 5-7 years of full support, but even that does not guarantee or mean the latest and greatest OS version at the end of that life cycle will work... and you're expecting an additional 3 years beyond that?

I fully get no one wants to be blowing money or budget on "unnecessary" computer stuff and the hacks to keep MP4,1 and MP5,1 going to this point are more than most could or should have expected. The unfortunate reality of the situation is the CPU's are EOL'd and have pretty significant vulnerabilities that are not patched and never will be. More vulnerabilities will be discovered and exploited over time. macOS is no longer officially supported. OC has worked for some, but it is not perfect. Anyone who wants to keep these machines going really should have a backup plan and (at minimum) some kind of outside hardware firewall protections if they want to keep them connected to internet.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

This can be a slippery slope with expectations. While the hardware can/might/will function after that time, there is no guarantee on security updates, vulnerability patches, or even a timeline when the system will be EOL'd by Apple and make it ineligible for future OS versions.

Many are assuming 5-7 years of full support, but even that does not guarantee or mean the latest and greatest OS version at the end of that life cycle will work... and you're expecting an additional 3 years beyond that?

I fully get no one wants to be blowing money or budget on "unnecessary" computer stuff and the hacks to keep MP4,1 and MP5,1 going to this point are more than most could or should have expected. The unfortunate reality of the situation is the CPU's are EOL'd and have pretty significant vulnerabilities that are not patched and never will be. More vulnerabilities will be discovered and exploited over time. macOS is no longer officially supported. OC has worked for some, but it is not perfect. Anyone who wants to keep these machines going really should have a backup plan and (at minimum) some kind of outside hardware firewall protections if they want to keep them connected to internet.

With 20 core cpu, 64 core gpu and 128gb of memory, I REALLY doubt the Mac Studio would no longer be able to update to the latest macOS in 10 years time unless macOS gets really bloated over the next few years. I say this because currently the 2013 MacPro 6,1 is already getting at 10 years and its still fully supported, at the moment.

 

[bsbeamer]

You really expect a first gen M-class machine to officially run macOS 20.0 or 21.0?

 

[SpotOnT]

With 20 core cpu, 64 core gpu and 128gb of memory, I REALLY doubt the Mac Studio would no longer be able to update to the latest macOS in 10 years time unless macOS gets really bloated over the next few years. I say this because currently the 2013 MacPro 6,1 is already getting at 10 years and its still fully supported, at the moment.

I think Apple provides official software support based on when they discontinued the product, rather then based on the actual capabilities of the product. The reason why the 6,1 has been supported for so long is because it was never updated and sold all the way through 2019.

I expect the Mac Studio to get updated within 2 years and I expect the M1 Max and M1 Ultra will get the same number of years of software support.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

You really expect a first gen M-class machine to officially run macOS 20.0 or 21.0?

Honestly? I do. Given that macOS has a new number for every year it comes out (MacOS 20.0 = 2030 (8 years))

Once again, unless macOS gets really bloated for some reason that a 20 core cpu, 64 core gpu and 128gb of memory isn't up to par anymore, there is something absolutely wrong with macOS.

If were talking about lower end M1's then yes, I could potentially see some of those coming to EOL.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

I think Apple provides official software support based on when they discontinued the product, rather then based on the actual capabilities of the product. The reason why the 6,1 has been supported for so long is because it was never updated and sold all the way through 2019.

I expect the Mac Studio to get updated within 2 years and I expect the M1 Max and M1 Ultra will get the same number of years of software support.

I think to be fair, it was never really updated due to the fact it was bottlenecked by thermals, as such no new hardware could be used as it required better cooling that the trash can wasn't able to handle.

 

[Macative]

FWIW, I don't see any indication of the AS Mac Pro being dramatically different from the rest of the AS lineup. People just assumed when they first saw the M1 that Apple would never have the GPU prowess needed for the Mac Pro. Well, the M1 Max proved that wrong, and the M1 Ultra has solidified it.

The Mac Pro is expected to use a 40 core version of the M2 (4nm) chip. Extrapolate what you will from this information, but using the 20-core M1 Ultra as an example, it isn't hard to imagine what the performance of this machine will be like.
Potentially 256 GB of unified memory across 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores...doesn't leave any room for or interest in 3rd part options.

 

[SpotOnT]

I think to be fair, it was never really updated due to the fact it was bottlenecked by thermals, as such no new hardware could be used as it required better cooling that the trash can wasn't able to handle.

I know that is the line Apple went with, but I am pretty bitter that the trashcan didn't receive a small spec bump somewhere halfway in its product cycle. Surely Apple could have updated the I/O from Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3. That would have been a huge deal for my workflow, and would have allowed the nMP to run 5k monitors like the Apple sanctioned LG Ultrafine.

Just updating Thunderbolt and the HDMI port would have been enough for me, but weren't Skylake processors more power efficient than the old Ivy Bridge Xeons as well? Seems like they could have done some minor CPU bump as well without messing with the thermals.

Edit: At least the Broadwell Xeons had much better power-efficiency than the Ivy Bridge.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

FWIW, I don't see any indication of the AS Mac Pro being dramatically different from the rest of the AS lineup. People just assumed when they first saw the M1 that Apple would never have the GPU prowess needed for the Mac Pro. Well, the M1 Max proved that wrong, and the M1 Ultra has solidified it.

The Mac Pro is expected to use a 40 core version of the M2 (4nm) chip. Extrapolate what you will from this information, but using the 20-core M1 Ultra as an example, it isn't hard to imagine what the performance of this machine will be like.
Potentially 256 GB of unified memory across 40 CPU cores and 128 GPU cores...doesn't leave any room for or interest in 3rd part options.

IMO, the MacPro's benefit is that its 'modular'. Of course when the trash can MacPro came out it bucked that notion.

I really don't know how 'modular' the new MacPro would be other than PCIe slots and memory expansion as I HIGHLY doubt Apple will make the M2 socketed so it can be CPU upgradable at a later time. I see it being locked as how the storage is locked on the Mac Studio regardless if a higher capacity storage is installed.

 

[bsbeamer]

Anyone expecting 7+ years of active OS support from a first generation M1 machine purchased this year should contact an Apple Business representative and make your voice heard before spending cash.

There is a complete lack of transparency with respect to Apple's intended timeline and future support. They are not guaranteeing anything right now and never have. Everything is assumed, even the 5-7 year expectation.

Early generation iOS devices were cutoff after 3 OS updates. Later versions were given 4 OS updates. Majority seem to get 5 updates. Only one device ever received 6 OS updates (iPhone 5s). That might be the closest "all Apple" hardware comparison that can be made.

Samsung is currently making an issue out of this lack of transparency from Apple with their latest S22, guaranteeing 5 years of security updates and basically four OS versions. Several business customers are asking Apple for similar clarity on the iOS side, but have not seen anyone make a stink about it with macOS or iPadOS at this point.

 

[bsbeamer]

I know that is the line Apple went with, but I am pretty bitter that the trashcan didn't receive a small spec bump somewhere halfway in its product cycle. Surely Apple could have updated the I/O from Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3. That would have been a huge deal for my workflow, and would have allowed the nMP to run 5k monitors like the Apple sanctioned LG Ultrafine.

Just updating Thunderbolt and the HDMI port would have been enough for me, but weren't Skylake processors more power efficient than the old Ivy Bridge Xeons as well? Seems like they could have done some minor CPU bump as well without messing with the thermals.

TB2 to TB3 probably needed a new logic board. Don't recall the CPU limitations at the time off hand. No excuse for not releasing new GPUs, however. Not even addressing after so many D500/D700 basically died after 3-4 years of use was inexcusable.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

Anyone expecting 7+ years of active OS support from a first generation M1 machine purchased this year should contact an Apple Business representative and make your voice heard before spending cash.

There is a complete lack of transparency with respect to Apple's intended timeline and future support. They are not guaranteeing anything right now and never have. Everything is assumed, even the 5-7 year expectation.

Early generation iOS devices were cutoff after 3 OS updates. Later versions were given 4 OS updates. Majority seem to get 5 updates. Only one device ever received 6 OS updates (iPhone 5s). That might be the closest "all Apple" hardware comparison that can be made.

Samsung is currently making an issue out of this lack of transparency from Apple with their latest S22, guaranteeing 5 years of security updates and basically four OS versions. Several business customers are asking Apple for similar clarity on the iOS side, but have not seen anyone make a stink about it with macOS or iPadOS at this point.

For iOS, it was a matter of tech spec's. You don't have much room to put high powered chips in phones to run all the apps need, let alone the first few generations of the iPhone were very primitive. Once iOS matured it found its limitations with the older generation iPhones. Now it can be said since iOS has matured the hardware today can easily accommodate it.

I'd say with today's spec's macOS is more than capable on running on much older hardware. (I still believe macOS 12.3 can run natively on a 5,1 without the need of OpenCore if Apple themselves didn't implement so many roadblocks) Sure you won't get all the new (gimmick) features but the core OS will still run just fine.

 

[bsbeamer]

More than capable ≠ actually working or being supported.

 

[MarkC426]

The reason why the 6,1 has been supported for so long is because it was never updated and sold all the way through 2019.

And still available today on the refurb store....

 

[MarkC426]

Only one device ever received 6 OS updates (iPhone 5s). That might be the closest "all Apple" hardware comparison that can be made.

My IPad Pro (2015) is on it's 7th version of the OS....

 

[Macative]

IMO, the MacPro's benefit is that its 'modular'. Of course when the trash can MacPro came out it bucked that notion.

I really don't know how 'modular' the new MacPro would be other than PCIe slots and memory expansion as I HIGHLY doubt Apple will make the M2 socketed so it can be CPU upgradable at a later time. I see it being locked as how the storage is locked on the Mac Studio regardless if a higher capacity storage is installed.

I don't really know how "modular" remains any kind of benefit in a world where this kind of performance can be achieved from a SoC. Frankly it sounds like a dated concept by comparison.

When Apple was still producing Macs with off the shelf CPUs and GPUs from Intel and AMD...sure, why not. Let them be modular.

But why do people upgrade modular machines in the first place? For better performance. Who needs that when you get 5-20x that potential performance on day 1.

 

[AnimeFunTv]

More than capable ≠ actually working or being supported.

With OpenCore, its proven that the MacPro 5,1 can still run macOS 12.2 just fine. Other than Apple themselves just removing the MacPro 5,1 from its list of installable hardware. The limitations is the implementations of instructions that newer Intel CPU's have to take advantage of new features macOS (to my understanding) has. Apple need not support the hardware side of older MacPro 5,1's but for software they still can.

 

[bsbeamer]

You really expect an OpenCore style jailbreak for M-based machines to be available in 7+ years? The Hackintosh community would be thrilled, just don't see it happening. M-based machines are a different beast than Intel-based Mac. If anything, would expect the secure enclave security stuff to strengthen/increase over the coming years.

Would not be shocked to see a T2/Tx requirement for the latest OS version to function at some point in the next 3-5 years if OS support for Intel CPUs is still around. That would impact i9-based 2019 iMac 27" with Vega48 & 128GB RAM without T2, which is probably more capable than base level i5 2020 iMac 27" with T2.