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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Nah, due to DRM, I'm almost certain its not an accepted "workaround".

I just ran Loki for about 10 minutes and couldn't get Safari's RAM usage above 1GB but I remembered the issue I had prior was with Wandavision so I played a later episode of Wandavision. It looks like there's some kind of...RAM lock/leak. Something between the Disney+ module and Safari isn't releasing unneeded RAM. The issue is better now, but there's still a creep up. Before I got tired of streaming the video, I was able to get the RAM usage of Disney+ to 1.6GB and it was..slowly, but surely..creeping up.

It seems dynamic websites and Safari have an issue and I don't know what exactly is causing it. It isn't as bad as it was a few months ago, but its still definitely present.

How do people time shift then? Maybe they don't?

You might give Microsoft Edge a try. I had a problem two years ago where iCloud Notes would start out at 800 MB and creep up to 13 GB of RAM in about a day. Obvious memory leak. Same bug in Safari, Chrome, Opera and Brave. It was fixed in Microsoft Edge before the others. So maybe Microsoft Edge does a better job on memory leaks.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
How do people time shift then?
What an odd question. Disney+ is a streaming video site. You can just stream anything available anytime you want.

Edit: We’ll except not on Safari in Monterey Beta 3. Nothing streams. Disney+ just gives an error code.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
What an odd question. Disney+ is a streaming video site. You can just stream anything available anytime you want.

Edit: We’ll except not on Safari in Monterey Beta 3. Nothing streams. Disney+ just gives an error code.

What if your internet service goes out?
What if you have 3 mbps DSL?

Our internet service was out for 90 minutes yesterday because of the heavy rainstorms over the weekend. It happens from time to time. So does bandwidth performance dropping sharply.

We have Comcast but a lot of people in our state only have access to 1.5 - 7.0 mbps DSL. You would want some really good buffering or loading over time to view later so that you don't have interruptions.

We do have power outages from time to time too.

And of course, NetFlix supports it:

Screen Shot 2021-07-20 at 3.11.54 PM.png
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
What if your internet service goes out?
What if you have 3 mbps DSL?

Our internet service was out for 90 minutes yesterday because of the heavy rainstorms over the weekend. It happens from time to time. So does bandwidth performance dropping sharply.

We have Comcast but a lot of people in our state only have access to 1.5 - 7.0 mbps DSL. You would want some really good buffering or loading over time to view later so that you don't have interruptions.

We do have power outages from time to time too.

And of course, NetFlix supports it:

View attachment 1808882
Different issue. Time shifting is something people do with television so they can watch at a different time rather than the broadcast time.

For people with bandwidth issues, I don’t know what they do if downloads aren’t allowed. But even Netflix doesn’t allow downloading to run without the Netflix app. They also use DRM.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Different issue. Time shifting is something people do with television so they can watch at a different time rather than the broadcast time.

For people with bandwidth issues, I don’t know what they do if downloads aren’t allowed. But even Netflix doesn’t allow downloading to run without the Netflix app. They also use DRM.

They allow you to do something like downloading to a mobile device to watch on a plane.

I am guessing that Disney gets around to adding this feature eventually.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
They allow you to do something like downloading to a mobile device to watch on a plane.

I am guessing that Disney gets around to adding this feature eventually.
Netflix doesn't have this on a Mac. So why should Disney?
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Of course. It is a standard feature for streaming services with mobile apps.

Okay, that's fine. You can bring a phone or ipad on a plane. It would be nice with an M1 MacBook Air these days because the M1 Air has more attributes of a mobile device these days (long battery life, light weight).
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Okay, that's fine. You can bring a phone or ipad on a plane. It would be nice with an M1 MacBook Air these days because the M1 Air has more attributes of a mobile device these days (long battery life, light weight).
Almost no one seems willing to write a streaming app for macOS unfortunately. Neither Netflix nor Disney+ have one. And they both block downloading their iPad app to macOS for some reason.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Almost no one seems willing to write a streaming app for macOS unfortunately. Neither Netflix nor Disney+ have one. And they both block downloading their iPad app to macOS for some reason.

I guess you bring an iPad then. Is there someone on Disney's BoD that's also on Apple's BoD? Way to sell more Apple gear.
 

ImaginaryNerve

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2020
112
92
Daytona Beach - Florida
You should get it pretty quickly here if you manipulate the map or play with the controls. This is an experimental site I built awhile ago with 3js/webGL to visualize LIDAR data in 3d. It loads images on the canvas and creates some large arrays, but I get no error messages with Chrome, Edge, Firefox or Opera.

This worked! Very awesome site, btw.

It looks like the message pops up whenever Safari uses ~2.0GB of RAM for a period of time (longer than a second or two, I think) BUT--Safari, at least the latest retail version on 11.4, is releasing the unused RAM on that particular site just fine. You get the message, but Safari doesn't crash/refresh the page. At least I haven't been able to get it to on that site. I also wasn't able to get the RAM usage above ~3.5GB for the tab.

I'm going to test a few more streaming sites. I have a sneaking suspicion that the popup can mostly be safely ignored unless you're noticing slowdowns/issues with your PC while running one of the pages. I don't think its necessarily a problem, I imagine Apple may need to adjust the parameters that cause the popup and maybe the force refresh as well. Back during that issue, before Safari would crash I would see some sites reach upwards of ~5-6GB. The largest culprit (at the time) were streaming sites though.

Has anyone had any crashes or forced page refreshes? Or is it just the warning message now?
 
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ImaginaryNerve

macrumors regular
Nov 11, 2020
112
92
Daytona Beach - Florida
They allow you to do something like downloading to a mobile device to watch on a plane.

I am guessing that Disney gets around to adding this feature eventually.
Most of the streaming sites that let you pre-download shows/movies (and only some, not all of them) only let you do so in their particular application and only allow you to view it in their application. Netflix's desktop app on Windows 10 allows this, which is why I find it odd (and frustrating) that they don't have a desktop app for macOS. I have my suspicions as to why, though. In fact, I'm not sure there're any of the big streaming apps on the Mac App Store yet. Considering I prefer to stream on my MBP over an iPad (iOS devices have really aggressive dynamic contrast and watching with subtitles or closed caption on triggers it constantly though iOS 14/15 and the new iPad Pro has gotten MUCH better at making it less noticeable, I still notice it) I wouldn't mind a danged app.

I'm still annoyed that FB Messenger doesn't have an M1 native desktop app even though they have a fully working iOS App they don't allow you to download on desktop.

Edit to add:

Also, Disney+ despite being so large, is still fairly new. I imagine they'll eventually add that functionality but I suspect based on Netflix and other streaming apps' implementation that it is ALSO DRM related, since you can't download EVERY Netflix show/movie to the app, only some of them. I wonder if Disney has the same limitation since its spanning multiple subsidiaries.
 

DJLC

macrumors 6502a
Jul 17, 2005
959
404
North Carolina
I have a sneaking suspicion that the popup can mostly be safely ignored unless you're noticing slowdowns/issues with your PC while running one of the pages. I don't think its necessarily a problem, I imagine Apple may need to adjust the parameters that cause the popup and maybe the force refresh as well.

I ignore it all day, every day in Outlook Web in Safari / macOS 11.4. Haven't had it crash yet! 32GB RAM, 2019 Intel Mac mini.
 

Boyd01

Moderator
Staff member
Feb 21, 2012
7,950
4,887
New Jersey Pine Barrens
BUT--Safari, at least the latest retail version on 11.4, is releasing the unused RAM on that particular site just fine. You get the message, but Safari doesn't crash/refresh the page. At least I haven't been able to get it to on that site.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to create any real problems on my site, just an annoyance. I can see why a warning might be justified on my 2013 MacBook Air which only has 8gb of RAM, but it behaves just the same on my 2018 Mini with 64gb RAM. Wish they'd just add a button "don't show this warning again".

For streaming, I sometimes get it with Sling, but not very often. Again, there are no crashes or anything (this is on my 2014 Mini which has 8gb RAM).

Glad you enjoyed the site . :)
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Has anyone had any crashes or forced page refreshes? Or is it just the warning message now?
The Disney+ Stream would stop shortly after Safari put up the message.

Latest on Monterey and Disney+ is that it is now working and the message from Safari is now gone. Disney must have updated their site to handle the latest Monterey version of Safari.
 

macgabe

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2012
341
296
Not a "red flag", it's a bug that goes back a number of years, before Disney Plus existed. And just look a few posts back, it even causes problems with Apple's own streaming service.



It's certainly a problem that Apple should have fixed long ago, but it's not a conspiracy.
Irrelevant . Otherwise you could avoid antitrust lawsuits by simply allowing pre-existing bugs to disable competitors services. It doesn't matter if something is intentional, a 'happy accident', an oversight, or even if there is a 'legitimate' (security or coding related?) reason for the problem. When you're the biggest company on the planet by far, legislators will expect you to go out of your way to not hinder the competition on your platform, and in a timely fashion. A billion dollar fine would probably get their attention. Watch this space.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Irrelevant . Otherwise you could avoid antitrust lawsuits by simply allowing pre-existing bugs to disable competitors services. It doesn't matter if something is intentional, a 'happy accident', an oversight, or even if there is a 'legitimate' (security or coding related?) reason for the problem. When you're the biggest company on the planet by far, legislators will expect you to go out of your way to not hinder the competition on your platform, and in a timely fashion. A billion dollar fine would probably get their attention. Watch this space.

There's no hindrance of competition. In fact, it helps browser competition which is a healthy thing.

Just use Firefox.

And if a bug really bothers you? Download the source code and fix it yourself.
 

macgabe

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2012
341
296
And in case you were wondering, I'm not anti-Apple or anti-capitalism. I've owned Apple stock since 2001 and it's pretty much my biggest holding. But the situation has changed over the last 20 years and I'd rather the party didn't end.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
And in case you were wondering, I'm not anti-Apple or anti-capitalism. I've owned Apple stock since 2001 and it's pretty much my biggest holding. But the situation has changed over the last 20 years and I'd rather the party didn't end.

What is the problem in using another browser? Firefox is currently my largest position at 6K shares along with whatever I own in a bunch of index funds.
 

macgabe

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2012
341
296
In case you weren't around then Microsoft used to rule PCs and browsers - Apple couldn't get a look in. Around 2000 EU started a decade long series of lawsuits targeted at Microsoft's dominance, culminating in the unbundling of Internet Explorer. Microsoft lost its dominance in PC operating systems, IE doesn't exist. It was a 20 year set back for Microsoft.

 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
It wasn't 2000. The only competition back then was Netscape Navigator. A teenager and three Mozilla engineers started the Phoenix project and that later turned into modern Firefox. Back then IE has 95% marketshare and we cheered when Phoenix -> Firebird -> Firefox crept up in marketshare. Mozilla's main funding was from Google who didn't want to see Microsoft dominate this space. I think that the largest source for income at Mozilla is still Google.

You can't encourage competition when there is no competition. At the moment, the world is Chromium except for Mozilla.
 

macgabe

macrumors 6502
Dec 29, 2012
341
296
It wasn't 2000

Yes it was. After a complaint by Sun Micro in 98 (and a similar case in the US) the EU broadened their investigation to the tying of the Windows Media Player to the operating system. Microsoft tried playing hardball. They lost, appealed, lost again, and were repeatedly fined for not complying. At one point €1.5 m per day, which was to increase to €3m a day if they continued dragging their feet. When the EU were done with WMP they moved on to IE. This is so well documented and headline business news at the time I'm surprised you would even try to challenge it. Funny what people decide to argue about on the internet.

Try this for background reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission

or here is European Commission page stating "The case originated with a December 1998 complaint from Sun Microsystems alleging that Microsoft was refusing to supply it with interoperability information necessary to interoperate with Microsoft’s dominant PC operating system. In February 2000, following information obtained from the market, the Commission broadened the scope of its investigation to examine Microsoft’s conduct with regard to its Windows Media Player product (see IP/00/141).

On 1 August 2000, on the basis of an initial investigation, the Commission sent Microsoft a Statement of Objections alleging that Microsoft was denying to disclose interface information which rival work group server operating system vendors needed to interoperate with Microsoft’s dominant Windows PC operating system (see IP/00/906)."

 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,151
14,574
New Hampshire
Yes it was. After a complaint by Sun Micro in 98 (and a similar case in the US) the EU broadened their investigation to the tying of the Windows Media Player to the operating system. Microsoft tried playing hardball. They lost, appealed, lost again, and were repeatedly fined for not complying. At one point €1.5 m per day, which was to increase to €3m a day if they continued dragging their feet. When the EU were done with WMP they moved on to IE. This is so well documented and headline business news at the time I'm surprised you would even try to challenge it. Funny what people decide to argue about on the internet.

Try this for background reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission

or here is European Commission page stating "The case originated with a December 1998 complaint from Sun Microsystems alleging that Microsoft was refusing to supply it with interoperability information necessary to interoperate with Microsoft’s dominant PC operating system. In February 2000, following information obtained from the market, the Commission broadened the scope of its investigation to examine Microsoft’s conduct with regard to its Windows Media Player product (see IP/00/141).

On 1 August 2000, on the basis of an initial investigation, the Commission sent Microsoft a Statement of Objections alleging that Microsoft was denying to disclose interface information which rival work group server operating system vendors needed to interoperate with Microsoft’s dominant Windows PC operating system (see IP/00/906)."


The ruling wasn't in 2000. It was much later.
 
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