Yeah, this is what happens. And then -- at some unknowable point -- it will just stop backing up entirely until you reboot.
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Time Machine keeps disabling itself in Ventura!
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Before I never saw it saying it was actually backing up, though. It would just list the latest backup date that was too far in the past.
I can’t remember if mine always did or not, but I’ve definitely noticed the icon changing in the menu bar.
Mine, weirdly, also backs up multiple times an hour sometimes, but still says it last backed up on April 24.
This is just stupid.
None of these are the issue for me. Also, regarding #1, Time Machine automatically overwrites the oldest backups, so that would never be an issue:
It is not that simple.
Deleting the oldest backup only frees up a very small amount of space - the space occupied by files that are unique to that particular backup - the majority of files will also be present on more recent backups and so their space is not made available. It may require many backups to be deleted.
Mostly this works fine, but there are circumstances where this process can break down - most obviously when the physical size of the disk is not much larger than the data being backed up and there are lots of new files needing backup.
I believe it is indeed that simple. Notice is says the oldest backups (plural), meaning it may delete more than just the oldest one if more space is required. This has been working for me flawlessly since Time Machine came out in 2007 . . . until Ventura. Ventura mucked something up for sure. But even if you're right, then why does Time Machine not generate an error message?
Let's assume that the oldest backup was the first backup and many of the files there have not changed since. When TM runs out of space it would not delete those files since they have not changed. It only removes deleted files. In the worst case (no file changes at all) there would be no change in size if you delete the backup.
If file1 has not changed and file 2 has:
When TM deletes it still keeps the latest version of the file. For example, let’s assume we have two files file1.txt and file2.txt. The file1.txt was changed once and file2.txt was deleted. If there is enough space TM will store 2 versions of file1.txt and deleted version of file2.txt.
When the backup disk fills up TM will delete old (first) version of file1.txt and the last version of file2.txt. TM will not delete the last version of file1.txt because there is still hard link (from the last back up) pointing to it.
What Does Time Machine Backup (and How Does It Work)
While I was doing different experiments on my MacBook, I always knew that I can restore the contents of my MacBook to the working state because I have made backups
macmyths.com
In your earlier posts you showed a Finder screenshot of backups which were on an HFS+ formatted disk.
When you used a new disk, did TM format it to APFS?
Yep. Problem started when I bought a new mini that came with Ventura. I was running Monterey before. Connected my old Time Machine drive to the new computer and the problems started.
Tried a new drive -- formatted to APFS and problems persisted.
Tried another new drive. Once again, formatted to APFS and problems persisted.
Let's assume that the oldest backup was the first backup and many of the files there have not changed since. When TM runs out of space it would not delete those files since they have not changed. It only removes deleted files. In the worst case (no file changes at all) there would be no change in size if you delete the backup.
If file1 has not changed and file 2 has:
When TM deletes it still keeps the latest version of the file. For example, let’s assume we have two files file1.txt and file2.txt. The file1.txt was changed once and file2.txt was deleted. If there is enough space TM will store 2 versions of file1.txt and deleted version of file2.txt.
When the backup disk fills up TM will delete old (first) version of file1.txt and the last version of file2.txt. TM will not delete the last version of file1.txt because there is still hard link (from the last back up) pointing to it.
What Does Time Machine Backup (and How Does It Work)
While I was doing different experiments on my MacBook, I always knew that I can restore the contents of my MacBook to the working state because I have made backups
I'm not sure I follow all that, but all I can say is that for 16 years now I've never had a single issue with Time Machine (until Ventura), and I'm even backing up less now than I was in the past (because I use cloud storage for a lot of files). There is plenty of free space on my TM disk. And if there were an issue with creating a backup, TM should/would tell you.
Time Machine (macOS 12/13) will reformat it as APFS when you add it as a backup destination.
What model of drive? How connected?
If not directly connected, what happens if you connect the drive directly to the Mini? Different cable?
First drive was a 4TB WD Elements. Connected via USB-A to a hub.
Second drive was a WD Blue Mobile HD, inserted into a Hagibis USB-C hub/drive enclosure, then connected via USB-C.
Third drive is a Samsung 2TB SSD, replacing the Blue in the hub/enclosure.
There's really no way to connect the Samsung other than the way I currently have it connected. I don't have another enclosure, for example.
As to cables: It happened with the non-APFS original Elements drive when connected via USB-A and now with both APFS volumes connected through SATA to USB-C. So I'm not sure it's a cable issue.
I thank you for your thoughts!
Always to remove the hub (particularly if unpowered) whenever there are issues.
The Hagibus USB-C hub/drive that I could find is not powered. I would not trust an unpowered HD in an unpowered hub.
I have found the Samsung T5/T7 to be marginal for power when connected via an unpowered hub.
My advice when there are any disk issues is to connect the drive directly to the Mac for testing. After getting it working without issues, then try via a powered hub.
The original USB hub was powered.
My Hagibis hub is powered as well. It connects to the Mac via USB-C and has a second USB-C port for power.
Worded another way if all the files you have on your TM disk are the current copies, and there are no deleted versions, then TM can't remove any of them to preserve space.
the you have been lucky. Lost count of the number of TM backups I have lost.
This probably won't help most of you, but here's something you can do if your Time Machine destination is low on space. I needed to do this fix on an older version of MacOS because in low free space situations TM wasn't smart enough to delete sufficient older backups to properly complete a new backup. Maybe they've fixed it in newer versions of TM.
You need to be a command line guru (aka Terminal) to do it.
There is a tmutil command that lets you manually control time machine. The particular subcommand of interest is tmutil delete. Previously you needed to issue that command separately for each old backup you wanted to get rid of. Newer versions of tmutil delete have a '-t' option that lets you specify multiple timestamps to remove.
I had a backup volume with years of older backups and used that command to delete literally dozens of them. This freed up lots of space and now TM is working quite well.
As the man page for tmutil delete warns: Requires root and Full Disk Access privileges.
To become root you don't actually need to enable the root user. You just use sudo. So to get a root shell just do sudo bash but you already need to be an administrator for that command to work.
To get full disk access for the Terminal app you must go to System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> Privacy -> Full Disk Access and add the Terminal app there. (That's for Monterey, maybe newer macOS is slightly different).
Edit: maybe it's possible to delete old TM backups via GUI, but I'm a unix guy from the 1980s and we did everything via command line. So YMMV.
You need to be a command line guru (aka Terminal) to do it.
There is a tmutil command that lets you manually control time machine. The particular subcommand of interest is tmutil delete. Previously you needed to issue that command separately for each old backup you wanted to get rid of. Newer versions of tmutil delete have a '-t' option that lets you specify multiple timestamps to remove.
I had a backup volume with years of older backups and used that command to delete literally dozens of them. This freed up lots of space and now TM is working quite well.
As the man page for tmutil delete warns: Requires root and Full Disk Access privileges.
To become root you don't actually need to enable the root user. You just use sudo. So to get a root shell just do sudo bash but you already need to be an administrator for that command to work.
To get full disk access for the Terminal app you must go to System Preferences -> Security & Privacy -> Privacy -> Full Disk Access and add the Terminal app there. (That's for Monterey, maybe newer macOS is slightly different).
Edit: maybe it's possible to delete old TM backups via GUI, but I'm a unix guy from the 1980s and we did everything via command line. So YMMV.
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It definitely did in the past.
But about a year ago I ran into big problems exactly because TM did NOT notify about any issues.
I know that in the past TM would notify me if the backup drive is low on space or isn't available. So I ended up missing some two months of backups as TM wasn't issuing any warning - and I didn't check if the backups were actually performed as I got used to relying on TM's warnings for years.
In the process of dealing with this issue, I was also pleasantly surprised to learn that even though TM UI claims that no backups were done for months - in reality TM might as well was performing the backups anyway (I forgot the exact mechanism of this action by now).
So in the end I didn't lose any backups - even though TM claimed it didn't make any for months.
I ended up buying a much bigger drive to avoid any potential space issues. Also submitted a detailed bug to Apple about both the lack of warnings and the false info provided by TM. And also now make sure to check the backup status regularly in the menu bar.
Yes I just experienced this in macOS Monterey (my laptop isn't supported in Ventura).
I have an external disk I intermittently connect to my laptop. When I switched on Time Machine in System Preferences it said something like Latest Backup: Never.
Looking into the actual backup target folder used by Time Machine it was obvious that a backup was done about a month previously. Fortunately, when I stared a manual backup, TM only needed to copy a few GB of files, it recognized the existence of the earlier backup.
These are the kind of stupefyingly simple bugs it's hard to believe can exist in software that's been around since 2007! It's obvious that Apple DGAF about software quality.