To all the trouble making mac haters

[Beerfloat]

Great posts Winni, thanks for injecting some common sense into this topic.

Now we just need you to follow your sig and get out of the NT camp! C'mon admit it, Unix is just so much more fun.

 

[YahonMaizosz]

The NT kernel originally was a Mach-kernel, just like the kernel of OS X, which still is a Mach-kernel. And no, Apple did not event that concept, neither did Microsoft.

<snip>

I was about to post the quite exact reply, but you did it first Winni..

GOOD JOB!!

Couldn't agree more with your points, especially the Support and material comparison illustration with the 30" display.. You truly knows your materials before you speak..

 

[FX120]

Let's look at the facts.

k.

Software:
OS X is UNIX, Windows is... what, MS-DOS-based? I don't remember.

So, you've got no clue what you're talking about?

For OS X, security is NOT a function of marketshare. Meaning that, as OS X approaches 50% marketshare, it will not instantly start being less secure as more and more malicious software is written for it. I believe the phrase is, "because no one cares about it" or "because fewer people us it".

You sound pretty certain for a guy who doesn't even know what core technology Windows runs on, or about the way security is modeled in the most current versions of Windows.

This is fallacy. UNIX is inherently more secure than the system on which Windows is based. It is much more difficult (I won't say impossible until I am told that it is impossible) for a malicious program to run or install without the end-user telling it to do so.

Why? Because Apple's marketing told you so?

Operationally, OS X provides a cleaner, more simplistic interface than Windows, but lacks some of its features (such as cut and paste in the Finder). Recent developments with Snow Leopard show that Apple is adding more capabilities to the Finder in OS X.

Completley subjective. Personally I feel that neither OS has an advantage here, both do some things better than the other, and both do some things in absolutley retarded ways.

I don't have the time right now to add more to this post, so as more points on both the hardware and software front come forth, I will add them. Let's try our best to get as much information here as possible. We can never END this argument–I'm not even going to try–but with enough good information, we can certainly have INTELLIGENT discussion about both OS' and their means of distribution to end-users.

Then perhaps you should start with intelligent posts, with points that you've actually researched rather than simply spewing back out the spoon-fed Apple marketing you ate up years ago.

 

[hexonxonx]

I know that Im bias but I truly believe in what I say. I feel that it is fact.

Though I wouldn't mind if you make a factual version for me

So then instead of stating that OS X is better than Windows, you should state that in your opinion it is.

That's about all I have to say because it looks like other people have said things that needed to be said.

 

[miles01110]

I usually don't check this forum because it's mostly full of garbage.

..but this thread genuinely made me laugh. I need to check back here more often.

 

[steve2112]

A few last comments about security:

There are no secure systems - at least not as long as there will be human users.

However, Microsoft went through great lengths to make Vista secure but still usable, and they did the same with their servers.

In reality, you -will- protect your entire network with security appliances that filter all incoming and outgoing network traffic, and you will also install anti-virus software on all machines. And in a business environment you -will- do the same on Macs, no matter how much you believe how secure they are.

The most dangerous malware is the one nobody knows of. Because the dangerous criminals want to have access to your network without being noticed. And they want to come back to your system.

Furthermore, the most dangerous factor for a system's security still comes from within the company/organization. It's the disgruntled employee who willingly installs the backdoor software. It's usually a movie myth that people break into your network -- such attempts usually end in a denial of service and unresponsive servers. But not in a security breach. No, successful attackers normally have help from the inside.

But even without those scary movie scenes, every normal corporate network is protected by multiple layers of defense and you have to pass several firewalls -and- security appliances and traffic filters before you even hit your first server. By that time, most malware has already been filtered out.

Then you have another filter on your mail and file servers.

Then another one on your workstations.

And still, the crap gets through. And this would also happen if everybody was using Unix systems. Because then the folks would invest their energy in exploiting those systems - written by humans, used by humans, therefor flawed by design.

I think Winni may have just become my favorite poster on this board.

Winni is 100% correct. The biggest threat is users. One of my favorite TShirts says something like "Social Engineering: Because there is no patch for human stupidity". All it takes is one ticked off employee to kill your enterprise. Look at what happened in San Fran a few months ago. One ticked off admin locked everyone out of their network.

As much as people slam Vista, it is way more secure than XP. There haven't been the major exploits for Vista along the lines of Blaster, Sasser, Nmdia, etc. A big part of this is because you can actually run Vista as a non-admin, just like in OSX. And honestly, that alone is a big factor in protecting workstations. Sadly, however, human stupidity kicks in and people blindly enter admin passwords (if they know them) without thinking about WHAT is being installed.

As far as support: the business support from Dell is second to none. HP is really good as well. I was a Dell and HP repair technician for years, and I can tell you that I would much rather deal with either of those than the likes of Gateway, Acer, and others. However, all PC hardware manufacturers have cut service on the home user level. Why? Because people demanded systems that were cheaper, and customer service is always one of the first things to suffer when prices start getting cut.

Honestly, it is this type of attitude that sometimes makes me almost ashamed to admit I am an Apple fan. The blind acceptance of Apple marketing spin is laughable.

 

[steveza]

Another word on Dell's support: anyone who says it's rubbish probably hasn't called them for a few years. They just replaced the MB, display and keyboard in my nearly 3 year old Dell laptop without even questioning me on why I thought they needed replacing. Their service was outstanding and probably the best I've had from any organisation - including Apple - in a long time.

 

[Janglo]

A letter to all the trouble making mac haters.

1) Hating on macs in a forum created to cater to mac users is unproductive.
Yes, because a few people like you can't take critiscism of your gadgets

2) Hating on apples hardware is ridiculous. If you don't like it, don't buy it. What your doing is comparing the price of a honda to a rolls royce. Sure they both have 4 wheels and a motor but that rolls royce has a higher build quality.
So if Apple released a Mac Mini which was the size of an iPhone, but had a 900mhz processor with 256mb of RAM - you would respond to the critics by calling them "Haters - OS X kicks Vista's behind!"?

3) Stop saying Dell's are a better deal then macs.
3a) Dell uses low quality cheap parts
Never had any problems with my Inspiron 530 Desktop...
3b) Just because your dell has 6 gigs of ddr2 660mhz ram does not make it better then a mac pro with 4 gigs of ddr3 1100mhz ram.
3c) Dells customer service is horrid. Don't believe me? Call them and ask for help with a complex problem. Still don't believe me? call them and ask for help with a simple problem. They will make you run through the same steps.
3d) Dell cuts corners. Don't believe me? Look inside your dell, now look at the inside of a mac pro.
3e) Dell XPS is not the same as an imac, imacs are all in one, dell xps are desktops.Pretty much all "consumer" Macs are all-in-one - Doesn't it seems stupid when space often isn't an issue?

4) Macs OS is better then windows, stop arguing its just a fact.
Blackberry is better than iPhone - don't argue because of course it's just fact. I mean, why wouldn't it be? I said it!
4a) Mac osx uses ram much more efficiently
It's not the OS people dislike...
4b) Mac OSX uses less CPU, not just for apps but for general use. Move a window around in vista or even XP, thats right your cpu usage just jumped to about 20-40%.
Yeah... whatever - when was the last time you used windows...
4c) 1 app crashing won't bring your system down like in windows 1995
Edited
4d) Mac osx is easier to use. Dont argue, just compare macs system preferences to vista control panel.Now that, my biased friend, is an opinion - Football is more exciting than baseball, my fashion sense it better than yours - Opinions!
4e) NO DRIVERS in mac osx
Every modern OS has drivers

5) If you don't like macs, don't comment! No one wants to hear why you think mac suck.Why is this forum flooded whith people who think windows sucks - nobody wants to hear it! Without constructive debates (I'm taking it this is what you call "hating") the world would be full of dictators and bullies. Like your dictatative post

6) Not everyone buys there computer to game, most people have lives, we don't have time to game or chose not to.Sport is a game. You seriously can't tell me that sitting doing up your profile on Facebook is more social than playing a game every once in a while?

There we go.

 

[whitefang]

Fact: Mac OSX boots, sleeps, shutsdown faster than windows (this includes windows 7). Macbook Pro boots faster than a Quadcore with Windows 7.

Fact: Mac OSX with VMWare Fusion runs Windows almost as native speeds (regardless of benchmarks)

Fact: Macbook Pro (unibody) runs cooler and is much better designed than ANY OTHER consumer laptop. Macbook Pro is full of innovative features including ambient light sensing, unibody, led screen. To get that type of laptop from another manufacturer, you'd have to chose buisiness class and even then it can't compare in features. Check all the buisiness class laptops from HP, Sony, Dell. Not one of them can match the tech in the Macbook Pro (except fingerprint scanner).

Fact: Mac OSX runs programs faster and has a cleaner interface in installing/uninstalling programs etc

Fact: Windows is the most business oriented OS there is. Almost ALL companies use some sort of .NET technology.

Fact: Windows has the most device compatibility

Fact: OS X manages memory much better than Windows.

 

[Jack Flash]

Fact: Mac OSX boots, sleeps, shutsdown faster than windows (this includes windows 7). Macbook Pro boots faster than a Quadcore with Windows 7.
Windows 7 is a dead tie with OS X for me in terms of boot speed.
Fact: Mac OSX with VMWare Fusion runs Windows almost as native speeds (regardless of benchmarks)
Credit to what an efficient and lightweight OS Windows is. Don't see how this is in Apple's favor...
Fact: Macbook Pro (unibody) runs cooler and is much better designed than ANY OTHER consumer laptop. Macbook Pro is full of innovative features including ambient light sensing, unibody, led screen. To get that type of laptop from another manufacturer, you'd have to chose buisiness class and even then it can't compare in features. Check all the buisiness class laptops from HP, Sony, Dell. Not one of them can match the tech in the Macbook Pro (except fingerprint scanner).
Ambient light sensing and the unibody design may be cool features but what about quad cores, built in digitizers and dual LCDs? This isn't a one horse race.
Fact: Mac OSX runs programs faster and has a cleaner interface in installing/uninstalling programs etc
Actually, by default Apple has a terribly messy uninstall system. Dragging to the trash leaves clutter behind. I recommend AppZapper to fix this OS deficiency.
Fact: Windows is the most business oriented OS there is. Almost ALL companies use some sort of .NET technology.
It's just an API.
Fact: Windows has the most device compatibility
What with the Zune? Really in this day and age most devices are cross compatible.
Fact: OS X manages memory much better than Windows.
Still haven't seen any conclusive evidence on this.

Responded.

 

[Eidorian]

I suggest we should all add Winni to out MacRumor's buddy lists.

Excellent and informative postings good sir. *monocle*

 

[belvdr]

Fact: Macbook Pro (unibody) runs cooler and is much better designed than ANY OTHER consumer laptop. Macbook Pro is full of innovative features including ambient light sensing, unibody, led screen. To get that type of laptop from another manufacturer, you'd have to chose buisiness class and even then it can't compare in features. Check all the buisiness class laptops from HP, Sony, Dell. Not one of them can match the tech in the Macbook Pro (except fingerprint scanner).

My HP 6910p has an ambient light sensor too, which is a very cool feature.

As for LED screen and unibody, I fail to see why these are great features. My laptop is sturdy and the display works.

Also, why is the MBP a consumer laptop? It's a pro machine, no?

 

[whitefang]

Ambient light sensing and the unibody design may be cool features but what about quad cores, built in digitizers and dual LCDs? This isn't a one horse race.

Urm....specialization? I was comparing laptops to laptops. You're comparing laptops with tablets, workstations, servers. Macs have everything you mentioned except digitizers because apple doesn't have a tablet but may have one in the works.


Actually, by default Apple has a terribly messy uninstall system. Dragging to the trash leaves clutter behind. I recommend AppZapper to fix this OS deficiency.

No, most applications on Apple has uninstallers that take care of everything. Some programs will leave files behind. Some programs in WINDOWS will also leave files behind. However, what's worse is that Windows registry entries that get left behind by programs clutters the registry which affects the WHOLE system performance. On the Mac, there is no registry so even if there are rogue files, there is no impact to system performance.


It's just an API.

lol,this tells me you no nothing about .NET technology.

Still haven't seen any conclusive evidence on this.

I ran a 512mb dedicated virtual machine with other OS X apps running without any performance impact on 2gigs of RAM. Try running that in Vista.

Counter Responded.

 

[belvdr]

Not sure about 10.5, but in 10.4, I never saw an uninstaller for programs. It was always a drag to the trash deal, leaving behind preferences everywhere.

That said, I agree the Windows registry stinks.

 

[whitefang]

My HP 6910p has an ambient light sensor too, which is a very cool feature.

As for LED screen and unibody, I fail to see why these are great features. My laptop is sturdy and the display works.

Also, why is the MBP a consumer laptop? It's a pro machine, no?

Your 6910p is plastic.

Not sure about 10.5, but in 10.4, I never saw an uninstaller for programs. It was always a drag to the trash deal, leaving behind preferences everywhere.

That said, I agree the Windows registry stinks.

It depends on the application. The fact is that even if you don't properly uninstall them, it doesn't matter on the OSX platform. It doesn't affect system performance. On Windows, it makes the registry file get cluttered over time which causes the whole system to slow down and causes all kinds of issues.

 

[belvdr]

Your 6910p is plastic.

Okay, but I don't see aluminum as a great feature. It looks nicer, but I don't see a huge value in it (other than it makes it better for theft these days with all the scrap metal thieves).

 

[whitefang]

Okay, but I don't see aluminum as a great feature. It looks nicer, but I don't see a huge value in it (other than it makes it better for theft these days with all the scrap metal thieves).

Tell me aluminum doesn't make a great feature when you start doing some processor intensive stuff. The whole point of unibody is to dissipate heat quickly using a larger surface area (the whole thing acts as a heatsink). This also makes the whole machine run cooler and makes less noise as fans don't need to spin as fast.

 

[FX120]

Tell me aluminum doesn't make a great feature when you start doing some processor intensive stuff. The whole point of unibody is to dissipate heat quickly using a larger surface area (the whole thing acts as a heatsink). This also makes the whole machine run cooler and makes less noise as fans don't need to spin as fast.

Aluminum is actually very impractical for a portable device. It is a very soft material that is easily scratched, dented, deformed, and warped. Drop a unibody case from 6' up and see the damage that results.

Furthermore, moving heat off of the processor and putting it into the users lap, wrists, fingers, ect is hardly a good thermal solution. Apple's thermal design has always had a top prioritiy, and that isn't keeping the components as cool as possible, it's making the laptop look cool, then make it sound quiet. The heatsink design in their laptops has always been piss-poor because the aesthetics dictated the vent be in the hinge. Apple has worked very hard to try and fix the thermal problems, but they're still there.

The last notebook I bought was my Lenovo T60, which came out at the same time as the first generation MBP's. The reason I went with the T60 instead of the MBP was becuase I knew it wouldn't fry lap when I used it, because of good thermal design, and by the way it is also very quiet. The case might look like it's made out of plastic, but underneath it's reinforced by magnesium alloy, making it very stiff, but also able to absorb shock, so when it was pushed off of the top of a shelf onto the floor from about 6', there was no resulting damage other than a scuff on one corner. By contrast, I have a coworker with a early 2008 MBP, which now has a warped lid. Only the center contacts the bottom half of the laptop, because that's where the latch is.

Aluminum is one of the many reasons I will probably never buy an Apple notebook.

 

[whitefang]

Aluminum is actually very impractical for a portable device. It is a very soft material that is easily scratched, dented, deformed, and warped. Drop a unibody case from 6' up and see the damage that results.

Furthermore, moving heat off of the processor and putting it into the users lap, wrists, fingers, ect is hardly a good thermal solution. Apple's thermal design has always had a top prioritiy, and that isn't keeping the components as cool as possible, it's making the laptop look cool, then make it sound quiet. The heatsink design in their laptops has always been piss-poor because the aesthetics dictated the vent be in the hinge. Apple has worked very hard to try and fix the thermal problems, but they're still there.

The last notebook I bought was my Lenovo T60, which came out at the same time as the first generation MBP's. The reason I went with the T60 instead of the MBP was becuase I knew it wouldn't fry lap when I used it, because of good thermal design, and by the way it is also very quiet. The case might look like it's made out of plastic, but underneath it's reinforced by magnesium alloy, making it very stiff, but also able to absorb shock, so when it was pushed off of the top of a shelf onto the floor from about 6', there was no resulting damage other than a scuff on one corner. By contrast, I have a coworker with a early 2008 MBP, which now has a warped lid. Only the center contacts the bottom half of the laptop, because that's where the latch is.

Aluminum is one of the many reasons I will probably never buy an Apple notebook.

It's not all aluminum, it's an alloy so not dented THAT easily but it can be. If you wanted to buy a laptop that could be droped, you should've gone with the Phillips Toughbook. It will last more than the T60. And 2006 macbooks were plastic so no wonder they ran hot. On the unibody, the whole laptop is a heatsink so there aren't really any hotspots.

 

[belvdr]

Tell me aluminum doesn't make a great feature when you start doing some processor intensive stuff. The whole point of unibody is to dissipate heat quickly using a larger surface area (the whole thing acts as a heatsink). This also makes the whole machine run cooler and makes less noise as fans don't need to spin as fast.

Sorry, but I've never had an issue with my laptop and noise. Yeah, the fans spin up when doing something processor intensive, but it's not annoying, and the machine doesn't get that hot.

I should also add this is subjective, so the noise that doesn't bother me may be very annoying to you.

 

[FX120]

It's not all aluminum, it's an alloy so not dented THAT easily but it can be. If you wanted to buy a laptop that could be droped, you should've gone with the Phillips Toughbook. It will last more than the T60. And 2006 macbooks were plastic so no wonder they ran hot.

If my memory recals, the "brick" process uses T6061 "aircraft" aluminum, which is a very mild alloy, which is still very soft and malleable, no where near the same strenght as the 2000 and 7000 series alloys.

Either way, it is still much easier to dent an aluminum macbook than it will be to break a reinforced composite notebook.

By the way, Panasonic, not Phillips makes the toughbook. They're absurdly expensive, heavy and large, whereas my T60 is 1" thick, and 5lbs, and cost me all of $1600. It's not as tough as a toughbook, yet it still survived a drop from 6' up just fine. And in 2006, the MacBook Pro (which was the only Mac comparable to the T60 because of the descrete graphics), was made out of Aluminum, and it ran flame hot.

 

[whitefang]

If my memory recals, the "brick" process uses T6061 "aircraft" aluminum, which is a very mild alloy, which is still very soft and malleable, no where near the same strenght as the 2000 and 7000 series alloys.

Either way, it is still much easier to dent an aluminum macbook than it will be to break a reinforced composite notebook.

By the way, Panasonic, not Phillips makes the toughbook. They're absurdly expensive, heavy and large, whereas my T60 is 1" thick, and 5lbs, and cost me all of $1600. It's not as tough as a toughbook, yet it still survived a drop from 6' up just fine. And in 2006, the MacBook Pro (which was the only Mac comparable to the T60 because of the descrete graphics), was made out of Aluminum, and it ran flame hot.

Apparently, T60 has a overheating problem:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ibm+t60+overheating&btnG=Search

 

[FX120]

Apparently, T60 has a overheating problem:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ibm+t60+overheating&btnG=Search

So, you're saying that my T60 has had an overheating problem for all these years and I didn't even know about it?

The T60 problems had to do with a specific manufacturing flaw, not a flaw in design and engineering like is the problem with the MacBooks.

Nice job responding to the points I made, by the way.

 

[belvdr]

Nice job responding to the points I made, by the way.

See above, when I couldn't figure out why the aluminum was a feature, and he just said "Your 6910p is plastic." He still hasn't responded as to why the MBP is a consumer laptop either. I figured anything with Pro in the name, such as the MBP or MP, were geared toward professionals, not consumers.

 

[FX120]

See above, when I couldn't figure out why the aluminum was a feature, and he just said "Your 6910p is plastic." He still hasn't responded as to why the MBP is a consumer laptop either. I figured anything with Pro in the name, such as the MBP or MP, were geared toward professionals, not consumers.

It's pretty obvious that he has no clue about what he is talking about.