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TomTom Car kit on UK apple store

fpnc said:
...the GPS in the iPhone isn't good enough (IMO) for reliable turn-by-turn directions...
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fid said:
This is just wrong...Please stop spreading FUD like this around. The internal GPS is just fine for most of us.
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If you look around you will find posts from people using both the TomTom and Navigon apps that report results similar to what I've seen on my iPhone 3GS (lagging GPS response and inaccuracy even in clear, open-sky conditions). From my experience, it's true that something over 90% of the time the GPS updates are fine or close enough, but when you really NEED directions do you want to take the chance that 1 out of 20 (or more) turns will be somewhat questionable (is it here or just ahead or did I just pass the needed turn)? I'm NOT saying that the GPS in the iPhone is useless for turn-by-turn directions, in fact if your streets and turns are always widely spaced and if you are traveling at a modest speed then it could be just fine. However, IMO it's just not good enough in closely-packed urban areas and that's why I'd hesitate before spending nearly $100 on an iPhone GPS app.

I've also used the built-in maps application and the MotionX GPS app and have seen similar accuracy problems with those. If TomTom and Navigon were under $50 I'd say fine, they're somewhat useful and probably worth the price, but $100 or even $90 is too much (IMO).

Concorde Rules said:
...My 3GS gets 29ft accuracy and the speed readings are within 1mph of a AVIATION STANDARD GPS...
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If you are trying to claim that it is ALWAYS within 29 feet then I find that very difficult to believe. Sure, it can appear to be "dead accurate" now and then but even good, dedicated GPS units will generally be only with +/- 15 yards of your TRUE position. Then, add in map errors, reception problems, and GPS lag while traveling at highway speeds and pretty soon you're approaching the sort of inaccuracies on the iPhone that I've previously reported (+/- 50 yards, but usually considerably less).

As for speed estimates being within 1mph, I can pretty much believe that since the GPS apps most likely do smoothing and you generally don't accelerate quickly enough to cause problems on the readout. Besides that, some GPS errors are outside of the GPS hardware itself, which means that physically different GPS units will tend to agree because at any given moment they share some degree of the same errors.
 
I would have definitely considered that price if the app was included but rofl no way if it's not. It's such a rip off.
 
fpnc said:
If you look around you will find posts from people using both the TomTom and Navigon apps that report results similar to what I've seen on my iPhone 3GS (lagging GPS response and inaccuracy even in clear, open-sky conditions). From my experience, it's true that something over 90% of the time the GPS updates are fine or close enough, but when you really NEED directions do you want to take the chance that 1 out of 20 (or more) turns will be somewhat questionable (is it here or just ahead or did I just pass the needed turn)? I'm NOT saying that the GPS in the iPhone is useless for turn-by-turn directions, in fact if your streets and turns are always widely spaced and if you are traveling at a modest speed then it could be just fine. However, IMO it's just not good enough in closely-packed urban areas and that's why I'd hesitate before spending nearly $100 on an iPhone GPS app.

I've also used the built-in maps application and the MotionX GPS app and have seen similar accuracy problems with those. If TomTom and Navigon were under $50 I'd say fine, they're somewhat useful and probably worth the price, but $100 or even $90 is too much (IMO).


If you are trying to claim that it is ALWAYS within 29 feet then I find that very difficult to believe. Sure, it can appear to be "dead accurate" now and then but even good, dedicated GPS units will generally be only with +/- 15 yards of your TRUE position. Then, add in map errors, reception problems, and GPS lag while traveling at highway speeds and pretty soon you're approaching the sort of inaccuracies on the iPhone that I've previously reported (+/- 50 yards, but usually considerably less).

As for speed estimates being within 1mph, I can pretty much believe that since the GPS apps most likely do smoothing and you generally don't accelerate quickly enough to cause problems on the readout. Besides that, some GPS errors are outside of the GPS hardware itself, which means that physically different GPS units will tend to agree because at any given moment they share some degree of the same errors.
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That's why features like text to speech are important so you can get a better idea of where you turn. Even the best GPS devices are not accurate 100% of the time. What TomTom has done is promote their hardware instead of their software meanwhile Navigon has become the true innovator on the iPhone and the best GPS app on any cell phone.

I'm waiting for the point where TomTom drops off the list of leaders in sales. I'm glad I waited because I would have bought the TomTom app just off the name brand. I'll purchase the Navigon app instead with TTS and the the future in-app purchase of live traffic updates.
 
Suggestion for the next Iphone model

An idea for Apple, for the next generation of Iphone :
The GPS chip of the Iphone is performing well. The problem is with the internal antenna, which obviously has to be very small. So, just add the possibility to plug an external antenna. Lots of brands will be happy to sell a dock with an external antenna for a few dollars.
 
Maybe not just dock?

So earlier I read that the Tom Tom car kit would actually not just be a dock, but also an enhanced GPS antenna which would work with any GPS software that you purchase off of iTunes. Maybe this is why it's so expensive?
 
abergou said:
So earlier I read that the Tom Tom car kit would actually not just be a dock, but also an enhanced GPS antenna which would work with any GPS software that you purchase off of iTunes. Maybe this is why it's so expensive?
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It actually has its own GPS chip which TomTom says gives it more accuracy and performance. This is one reason why there were earlier reports that it would also work with the iPod touch which doesn't even have an internal GPS.
 
fpnc said:
you are trying to claim that it is ALWAYS within 29 feet then I find that very difficult to believe. Sure, it can appear to be "dead accurate" now and then but even good, dedicated GPS units will generally be only with +/- 15 yards of your TRUE position. Then, add in map errors, reception problems, and GPS lag while traveling at highway speeds and pretty soon you're approaching the sort of inaccuracies on the iPhone that I've previously reported (+/- 50 yards, but usually considerably less).

As for speed estimates being within 1mph, I can pretty much believe that since the GPS apps most likely do smoothing and you generally don't accelerate quickly enough to cause problems on the readout. Besides that, some GPS errors are outside of the GPS hardware itself, which means that physically different GPS units will tend to agree because at any given moment they share some degree of the same errors.
Click to expand...


Whenever I use a tracking app it spends 99% of the time claiming 29ft accuracy when im outside and 55ft in the car.

I was more pointing out to the guy that I quoted that:

A) Its a pretty dam good GPS
B) Only GPS units that cost as much as the phone itself do better.

But as mine always locks to the correct road and even at maximum map zoom on the motorway it gets it correct.
 
str1f3 said:
...meanwhile Navigon has become the true innovator on the iPhone and the best GPS app on any cell phone...
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That comment about Navigon being the best on ANY cellphone seems somewhat restrictive since in the U.S. Navigon only offers ONE product -- that is MobileNavigator which runs only on the iPhone. CoPilot is actually well known in Europe where they apparently use the same map database as does Navigon (NAVTEQ). Unfortunately (IMO), CoPilot uses their own map database in the U.S. -- probably my biggest concern with their current offering.

The situation between Europe and the U.S. is a bit interesting, since ALK Technologies -- the company that produces CoPilot -- is headquartered in the U.S. and does not produce any dedicated GPS hardware for any market (as far as I know). Meanwhile, Navigon is based almost entirely in Europe and produces dedicated GPS hardware for that market but not in the U.S. Of course, TomTom also produces dedicated GPS hardware and I've got to wonder whether that is the reason why both Navigon and TomTom charge so much for their iPhone software (that is, they don't want to cannibalize their hardware sales).

Furthermore, ALK produces their CoPilot software for the iPhone, Android, and Windows Mobile devices (which doesn't mean that they are necessarily the best, only that they have a lot of experience in cellphone-based GPS).

TomTom uses the Tele Atlas map database which make sense as Tele Atlas is now a subsidiary of TomTom.

In any case, I can't confirm which map database is being used by which version of the various iPhone apps for all regions (Europe, Asia, U.S, etc.). However, it is certain that in the U.S. CoPilot is using their own database. Navigon says they use NAVTEQ and I've got to assume that TomTom uses Tele Atlas since they own that company.
 
Concorde Rules said:
Whenever I use a tracking app it spends 99% of the time claiming 29ft accuracy when im outside and 55ft in the car.

I was more pointing out to the guy that I quoted that:

A) Its a pretty dam good GPS
B) Only GPS units that cost as much as the phone itself do better.

But as mine always locks to the correct road and even at maximum map zoom on the motorway it gets it correct.
Click to expand...
Okay, but your mileage may vary (as they say). Furthermore, I'd like to quote a recent review on Navigon's MobileNavigator by a well-known consumer advocate magazine:
As experienced with other iPhone applications, the GPS accuracy with Mobile Navigator is not as precise as with traditional navigation devices. The GPS will often place the current position on a surrounding road, rather than the road on which a user is actually traveling. This will cause the software to recalculate, which needless to say is annoying and confusing. We also experienced times when the iPhone unexpectedly lost GPS reception.
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Overall, however, they thought MobileNavigor was pretty good but not really capable of replacing a dedicated GPS device. And I must admit that I found this review just recently, AFTER I had formed my previously stated opinion about the iPhone's GPS.
 
abergou said:
So earlier I read that the Tom Tom car kit would actually not just be a dock, but also an enhanced GPS antenna which would work with any GPS software that you purchase off of iTunes. Maybe this is why it's so expensive?
Click to expand...


That was my understanding as well, that the dock would work with any GPS app to enhance signal. I have every intention of getting the dock for this purpose for use with the google maps app, or possibly with the reportedly superior Navigon app. If it doesn't work like I expect it to, I'm sure it will be returnable!
 
hushmartin said:
That was my understanding as well, that the dock would work with any GPS app to enhance signal. I have every intention of getting the dock for this purpose for use with the google maps app, or possibly with the reportedly superior Navigon app. If it doesn't work like I expect it to, I'm sure it will be returnable!
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How will you know whether it is working or not? I mean if it doesn't work the Navigon app will still function. The only way to tell for certain would be if you used the dock with a device that doesn't already have a built-in GPS and then purchased the Navigon app for that same device (which wouldn't be officially supported by Navigon). In fact, I'm pretty certain that Navigon won't even install on a device that doesn't already have a GPS (that means only the iPhone 3G and 3GS). Then, good luck in getting a refund from Navigon or Apple's iTunes Store.

Best bet would be to wait and see what is reported on the internet, or just ask TomTom and Navigon (and then check and check again).
 
I now have completely lost all respect for TomTom. $200 for a alpha app and car kit just simply sad.
 
Concorde Rules said:
Whenever I use a tracking app it spends 99% of the time claiming 29ft accuracy when im outside and 55ft in the car.

I was more pointing out to the guy that I quoted that:

A) Its a pretty dam good GPS
B) Only GPS units that cost as much as the phone itself do better.

But as mine always locks to the correct road and even at maximum map zoom on the motorway it gets it correct.
Click to expand...

Hmm, the antenna in your iPhone must be way better than mine. I recently did a very simple javascript using the html5 geolocation api to query the iphone for locations (when out of gps range it will use cell tower triangulation, which is not very precise).

When I'm in my car sitting with the iphone in my hand the most precise coordinates I can get is 70meters. If I hold the phone up against the windshield I get 17meters. As soon as I'm getting within 50 meters or so of a tree the precision drops immediately to 70m or lower.

When I go for a walk or run I am able to get fairly precise coordinates at 47meters and less with the iphone.

The only problem using the geolocation api from javascript for navigation is that as soon as the screen goes into power save, gps tracking is suspended.

Does anyone know whether the TomTom holder (and included GPS) can be used through the regular GPS api in the phone? It that was true it would be a great way to get accurate GPS when driving and you could write your own or use any other navigation app out there. Now, that would be cool :).
 
fpnc said:
How will you know whether it is working or not? I mean if it doesn't work the Navigon app will still function. The only way to tell for certain would be if you used the dock with a device that doesn't already have a built-in GPS and then purchased the Navigon app for that same device (which wouldn't be officially supported by Navigon).
Click to expand...

Okay, maybe I might be over-simplifying it a bit, but I think that this will be pretty easy to determine.

Step one: Determine a test app. This could be ANY app, even Google maps.
Step two: Test the accuracy of the app+ in-phone gps WITHOUT the new TomTom dock.
Step Three: Test the accuracy of the App+phone+new dock.
Step Four: Determine the difference in accuracy, if any.

I don't see the problem here. The whole idea behind the TomTom dock is that it is supposed to make a marked improvement in signal/reception and accuracy. If it doesn't, then it's not worth having.
 
I just received an email from Apple that my ordered tomtom will not be shipped with a GPS App. The App can be purchased in the App Store starting at EUR 69,-. If I do not aggree to these terms within 10 days my order will be automatically cancelled.

Honestly, I would have expected Apple to be a bit more obliging with those customers that orderd in the first few hours due to the false advertising from Apple. I would have even accepted a 50% off the App offer...

I guess customer satisfaction will not go this far anymore
 
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