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geoffpalmeruk

Cancelled
Nov 8, 2013
134
2
I hate that youtuber, can't say i've agreed with any of their patronising speeches, Just my opinion though....
I will be keeping all my cameras from P&S through mirrorless and DSLR.
Was the invention of DSLR the death of Film DSLRs? Nope!
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
In a world that craves likes and views, too much average or below average stuff gets circulated IMO. When there are a 1000 likes on something because people have a big social media presence on something most of us wouldn't even raised the camera for, somethings got to be wrong.
Yes, you're right. But are you chasing likes or excellence in arts? Many of the songs that make the Top 10 are, artistically speaking, inferior to a lot of music further down the billboard charts. There are different reasons for why people like music or photos or other forms of art, but in my observation it is rare that the most artistically beautiful coincides with the most popular.
 

Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,003
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
Yes, you're right. But are you chasing likes or excellence in arts? Many of the songs that make the Top 10 are, artistically speaking, inferior to a lot of music further down the billboard charts. There are different reasons for why people like music or photos or other forms of art, but in my observation it is rare that the most artistically beautiful coincides with the most popular.
I'm not even on instergram, FB or Twitter, so I'm not chasing anything.
I do photography because I enjoy taking good photos and challenging myself to do and learn new things. If someone else likes what I've done, bonus. But for me it's for me.
 

robgendreau

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jul 13, 2008
3,471
339
I hate that youtuber, can't say i've agreed with any of their patronising speeches, Just my opinion though....
I will be keeping all my cameras from P&S through mirrorless and DSLR.
Was the invention of DSLR the death of Film DSLRs? Nope!
Well, Film Digital SLRs don't exist. ;) You can still buy some from Nikon and Leica, but as a factor in photography they are pretty marginal. But that isn't what Northrup is saying (some folks are gonna use film as long as someone can make film and the chemicals to process it).

He was talking about compact, non-DSLR or ILC cameras. And this may not show death, but it shows a vegetative state for compacts, and some ill DSLRs/Mirrorless: http://petapixel.com/2014/12/15/chart-shows-badly-digital-camera-sales-getting-hammered-smartphones/
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
RED makes only professional cameras, so I don't see what that implies for the majority of the market. All other mainstream electronic devices have become less modular, less upgradable.
The comment about RED was part of a side discussion about the future of the enthusiast/pro camera, based on my suggestion that the sensor might become interchangeable in a future system camera to reduce the need to produce annual upgrades to the entire camera (reducing R&D and tooling costs, among other things - cheaper upgrades/longer useful life justifies a higher initial selling price, etc.). That goes back to the modularity of the old Nikon F, where pentaprism, ground glass, and film back were interchangeable as well as the lenses. (And the Nikon F's modularity was a throwback to the view camera...)

In a real sense, film was also an "interchangeable" part of the "system" - different emulsions for different needs. Why not offer a variety of sensors, some with larger photo sites for lower noise, others with higher resolution, Foveon, etc.?

Modularity always costs more than integrated manufacture (echoes of the complaints about minimally-modifiable Macs). We certainly paid more for quality of manufacture and materials, but we also paid for "flexibility" many of us barely used. We all bought additional lenses, but it was far less common to buy motor drives, 250-shot film backs, additional ground glass screens, waist-level viewfinders... TTL metering, if you wanted it, was built into the pentaprism (I upgraded the Photomic T prism to a Photomic FTn due to liquid damage to the meter electronics... sound familiar, iPhone owners??).

I was suggesting a way the enthusiast/pro manufacturers might adapt to a world where P&S was not a significant support to the pro/enthusiast business.

I should note that, back in the heyday of the Nikon F, Nikon, Canon, and their like were not making mass-market P&S cameras. They catered almost entirely to enthusiasts and pros, because Kodak "owned" mass market photography (as they had since George Eastman invented the concept). If you wanted something better than a Brownie or Instamatic, you were almost by definition an enthusiast.

The P&S market that we've been discussing really began with digital, with the camera makers attacking Kodak at its weak point - its reliance on film and processing revenues. "Buy our camera and you have unlimited free film!" And, of course, the rise of the internet meant "No/few prints, too!"

High end makers like Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc. didn't enter the digital P&S market at the start. They moved into new territory based on the value of their brand names, proven consumer appetite for digitals, and the availability of sensors good enough to compete with film.

If you look at things from a long enough perspective, the digital P&S market we're eulogizing could be considered a transitional blip in the history of consumer photography. The camera makers ate Kodak's lunch, then the smart phone makers ate the camera makers lunch... and so it goes.
 
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sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
Kodak owned the crown jewels of much of today's digital imaging IP but were terrified of a future they had helped invent.
They were savvy enough to launch EasyShare, which was drawing users well into the Flickr era (60 million users as of '08... only 40million behind FB) but couldn't grasp that cost margin businesses of 90% were dead....that the new paradigm was to actually lose 90% of your earnings while growing your customer base and driving everyone else out of the market. The lowest common denominator isn't just a LIKE on Instagram -it's the strategy that runs corporate America. Likes are all we make now.
 
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OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
@ApfelKuchen
You make some good points. Wouldn't it be nice if you could combine body size, sensor type (e. g. high resolution vs. lower resolution & optimized for low light photography), AF module and SoC? And you could replace each part afterwards, and swap, say the AF module? Yeah, of course.

However, to make modularity work costs quite a bit of money and requires compromises in other areas (weight, size, reliability). Even in the pro market, apart from its highest end, modularity has been dead for decades. The last Nikon slr with an interchangeable prism was the Nikon F4, introduced in 1988 and discontinued in 1997. Canon opted out of it when it made the T90. Apart from a very small niche market, I don't think this is where the market is moving to, nor do I think should it move to it — even though I can see the appeal.
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
@ApfelKuchen
You make some good points. Wouldn't it be nice if you could combine body size, sensor type (e. g. high resolution vs. lower resolution & optimized for low light photography), AF module and SoC? And you could replace each part afterwards, and swap, say the AF module? Yeah, of course.

However, to make modularity work costs quite a bit of money and requires compromises in other areas (weight, size, reliability). Even in the pro market, apart from its highest end, modularity has been dead for decades. The last Nikon slr with an interchangeable prism was the Nikon F4, introduced in 1988 and discontinued in 1997. Canon opted out of it when it made the T90. Apart from a very small niche market, I don't think this is where the market is moving to, nor do I think should it move to it — even though I can see the appeal.

Yeah, normally I'm the first to say that reducing modularity for Macs is a good thing for most users, since few ever take advantage of that modularity. I'm just spinning possible survival scenarios for the pro/enthusiast camera makers - something besides large aperture primes to induce their customers to spend more money. ;)

As to increased weight and bulk? I thought DSLR fans couldn't get enough of either. Those things are bigger than my old Nikon FTn. (MFT guy here.)
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
As to increased weight and bulk? I thought DSLR fans couldn't get enough of either. Those things are bigger than my old Nikon FTn. (MFT guy here.)
Considering how little I use my dslr after getting a Fuji X100s, I think less and less people are willing to put up with the extra weight.
 

lvar

macrumors newbie
Oct 2, 2015
22
7
NL
Considering how little I use my dslr after getting a Fuji X100s, I think less and less people are willing to put up with the extra weight.
I have both mirrorless and (D)SLRs, but I have to say for carrying around I like the mirrorless better, but shooting in general I like the SLRs better. The added size and weight does make it feel more pleasant and stable to me.
 

sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
Yeah, normally I'm the first to say that reducing modularity for Macs is a good thing for most users, since few ever take advantage of that modularity. I'm just spinning possible survival scenarios for the pro/enthusiast camera makers - something besides large aperture primes to induce their customers to spend more money. ;)

As to increased weight and bulk? I thought DSLR fans couldn't get enough of either. Those things are bigger than my old Nikon FTn. (MFT guy here.)

MF guys and Fuji lovers ought to be excited by this impeding rumored announcement:
http://www.fujirumors.com/medium-format-fuji-body-lens-price-hasselblad-x1d-body/
 

robgendreau

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jul 13, 2008
3,471
339
I have both mirrorless and (D)SLRs, but I have to say for carrying around I like the mirrorless better, but shooting in general I like the SLRs better. The added size and weight does make it feel more pleasant and stable to me.
You must be hitting the gym a lot ;)

For me it sorta depends on the lens; on a hike if I wanna take photos of wildlife it's SO much nicer to have the M43 kit.

OTOH, if I have to use a tripod anyway, then the DSLR is fine.

And the opposite for night stuff, where I vastly prefer the OVF.

It's like how I view cars: I can't understand why some are so loyal to one model, or one brand, or one type. Indeed, I've often had more than one vehicle as well as more than one camera body. No one thing does every thing well.
 

sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
You must be hitting the gym a lot ;)

For me it sorta depends on the lens; on a hike if I wanna take photos of wildlife it's SO much nicer to have the M43 kit.
OTOH, if I have to use a tripod anyway, then the DSLR is fine.
And the opposite for night stuff, where I vastly prefer the OVF.

It's like how I view cars: I can't understand why some are so loyal to one model, or one brand, or one type. Indeed, I've often had more than one vehicle as well as more than one camera body. No one thing does every thing well.

The car reference is apropos - A frequent lament on Road&Track or Car&Driver forums all center around how the luxury brand consumer is ruining the enthusiasts beloved sports car segment due to auto makers tailoring those high end machines to buyers who don't actually enjoy driving, rather they just want to get where they're going with the utmost speed and style. The complaint is that too much of the driving is being ceded to the car's computer diminishing the road feel and handling, which is a loss for people who actually view driving as an experience and not a means to an end. It's really strange to think that we're probably seeing the last generation of kids in America that will even know how to drive a car.
 

QuantumLo0p

macrumors 6502a
Apr 28, 2006
992
30
U.S.A.
Point and shoots are circling the drain and IMO compact DSLR's and mirrorless are next in line to go the way of the do-do, victims to smart phones and in that order. Will mirrorless gain much traction in lens selection before it dies? Or will be relegated to a small enthusiast niche?

As for me I'll dump my current gear as soon as smart phones (which really suck as a phone and are not much better at computing) can offer something to replace my Nikon DSLR with 150-600mm Sigmas S lens and tele-con which can be swapped out easily with many other quite varied lenses.

I think it will be a while...
:rolleyes:
 

ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,335
3,012
Between the coasts
Point and shoots are circling the drain and IMO compact DSLR's and mirrorless are next in line to go the way of the do-do, victims to smart phones and in that order. Will mirrorless gain much traction in lens selection before it dies? Or will be relegated to a small enthusiast niche?

As for me I'll dump my current gear as soon as smart phones (which really suck as a phone and are not much better at computing) can offer something to replace my Nikon DSLR with 150-600mm Sigmas S lens and tele-con which can be swapped out easily with many other quite varied lenses.

I think it will be a while...
:rolleyes:

Mirrorless is forever - everything but DSLRs are "mirrorless," from view camera to iPhone. What comes and goes is specific camera formats. Will a mirrorless with interchangeable lenses and a APS-C-size sensor be forever? Not necessarily.

It's the mirror that's the dinosaur here. The only value it has today is the optical viewfinder, and an optical viewfinder is hardly necessary. Digital photography is electronic photography - you get WYSIWYG off of the image sensor, far better info, if you ask me - you get to see exposure, color balance, etc. Not only are you seeing exactly what the lens sees, you're seeing what the "film" sees. The mirror interferes with video capture.

Viewfinder is not the critical feature of a camera - it's an aid to image capture. Back in the day, SLR was the gold standard of viewfinders, because you got an exact representation of what was coming through the lens - no parallax as we'd have from a rangefinder, no image reversal as with a twin-lens reflex, a right-side up image, unlike using a view camera... Perfect for quickly framing shots.

So long as larger sensors mean better quality, there will be large-sensor cameras, which of necessity will have larger lenses and bodies. They do not have to have mirrors.
 

OreoCookie

macrumors 68030
Apr 14, 2001
2,727
90
Sendai, Japan
I have both mirrorless and (D)SLRs, but I have to say for carrying around I like the mirrorless better, but shooting in general I like the SLRs better. The added size and weight does make it feel more pleasant and stable to me.
Dslrs are here to stay, but I think in 5–10 years they'll be relegated to a niche. If you compare the AF systems on the best mirrorless camera to the best (or even decent) AF systems on dslrs, the latter blow the former out of the water. But if mirrorless cameras get so good that a larger and larger share of the user base doesn't run into limitations, then dslrs will lose their competitive advantage in this market segment.
 

jerwin

Suspended
Jun 13, 2015
2,895
4,652
My God, this is painful, and I'm just 7:50 into the video. I don't want to imagine what the first video was like before she found out how it's done.

PS At 17:40 she finally finishes the setup. Uff.

Who is to blame here? Is it easier with a different phone? A different app? A different OS?
 

robgendreau

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Jul 13, 2008
3,471
339
Yeah, DSLR's will probably fade away. Remember, a 35mm SLR was sorta like mirrorless, in that it was a compact camera with a smaller, lower resolution capturing medium than what was prevalent for enthusiasts and pros, ie bigger format cameras.

I still love the OVF, but screens are getting better...but not fast enough. I still can't use an iPhone 6 in bright light. But I expect that could be fixed with an eyepiece and screen that goes where the current OVF sits. If necessary, like say the EVFs Oly sells (which are pretty awesome).

Since everything in a camera is a compromise, space for other stuff may end up crowding out the whole prism OVF structure.

And as already noted, look at movies. From low end GoPros to high end cameras optical viewfinders aren't necessary, so I imagine someday pretty soon someone will make them unnecessary even for shooting sports, etc.
 

sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
Dslrs are here to stay, but I think in 5–10 years they'll be relegated to a niche.

Considering how little I use my dslr after getting a Fuji X100s, I think less and less people are willing to put up with the extra weight.

From my vantage point, these are inherently conflicting points of view, which Tony himself fails to square in his video.

The consumer market is in the drivers seat whether we’re talking about cars or cameras and the vanguards of change are not traditional imaging companies, (or even car companies) but your Googles and Apples. Tony comes out and says this but then fails to follow that path to its logical conclusion; You cannot eat your cake and have it too. It's about as illogical as expecting Ford and Chevy to still be making gas aspirated engines in 10 years time. Not happening.

No, the DSRL will be dead and gone inside of 10 years. Pros will use smartphones with dozens or hundreds of lens arrays, fly tiny drones with ever smaller cameras (who needs a telephoto lens when you can fly right up to your subject) or they will be shooting video with global shutters and extract stills from the video stream. The pro/enthusiast landscape photographers will be shooting on either large sensor mirrorless cameras, or else coating their own films/papers as they always have. You might be able to kill film but you can’t kill chemistry.

I can't speak for Japan but (regrettably or not) there is no middle ground left to stand on over here.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,003
56,027
Behind the Lens, UK
From my vantage point, these are inherently conflicting points of view, which Tony himself fails to square in his video.

The consumer market is in the drivers seat whether we’re talking about cars or cameras and the vanguards of change are not traditional imaging companies, (or even car companies) but your Googles and Apples. Tony comes out and says this but then fails to follow that path to its logical conclusion; You cannot eat your cake and have it too. It's about as illogical as expecting Ford and Chevy to still be making gas aspirated engines in 10 years time. Not happening.

No, the DSRL will be dead and gone inside of 10 years. Pros will use smartphones with dozens or hundreds of lens arrays, fly tiny drones with ever smaller cameras (who needs a telephoto lens when you can fly right up to your subject) or they will be shooting video with global shutters and extract stills from the video stream. The pro/enthusiast landscape photographers will be shooting on either large sensor mirrorless cameras, or else coating their own films/papers as they always have. You might be able to kill film but you can’t kill chemistry.

I can't speak for Japan but (regrettably or not) there is no middle ground left to stand on over here.
Given how many 10 year old DSLR's there are out there in use today, pretty sure there will still be in 10 years!

As for Pro's using smartphones with dozens or hundreds of lenses or being able to fly drones, not going to happen.
The places you can use drones is more and more restricted each day. As for smart phones for pro's? Certainly not if they are shooting nature or sports.
 

sarge

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2003
597
136
Brooklyn
Given how many 10 year old DSLR's there are out there in use today, pretty sure there will still be in 10 years!

As for Pro's using smartphones with dozens or hundreds of lenses or being able to fly drones, not going to happen.
The places you can use drones is more and more restricted each day. As for smart phones for pro's? Certainly not if they are shooting nature or sports.

http://www.geekwire.com/2016/sports-illustrated-espn-use-iphone-7-plus-capture-action-nfl-u-s-open/

Well we shall see how many DSLRs are being manufactured in 10 years time. If the iPhone7 is good enough for Sports Illustrated now, I'm only extrapolating smartphone advances 10 years into the future. I grant you this is PR corporate synergy tie in but that's kind of the point I'm getting at -the future of photography is not dependent on us "photographers".

EDIT: Drone usage for pros who have national affiliations will be approved to fly in places that your average consumer cannot...more than likely. Just like press pass allows you on the sidelines or beyond the police barricade. Its social engineering

It is also my contention that JPEG from video streams would do as much to eradicate the dedicated stills camera as any smartphone.
 
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QuantumLo0p

macrumors 6502a
Apr 28, 2006
992
30
U.S.A.
...It's the mirror that's the dinosaur here. The only value it has today is the optical viewfinder, and an optical viewfinder is hardly necessary. Digital photography is electronic photography - you get WYSIWYG off of the image sensor, far better info, if you ask me - you get to see exposure, color balance, etc. Not only are you seeing exactly what the lens sees, you're seeing what the "film" sees. The mirror interferes with video capture...

The mirror is, true, but the dslr platform has way more depth than mirrorless at the moment. All I'm saying is that smartphones do not care one bit and are continuing to gnaw away at whatever it can displace. Mirror or not it doesn't care. I foresee enthusiast dslr's receeding and if the mirrorless platform doesn't develop some more depth then it will erode as well. Completely? No but anything larger than a smart phone is going to recede.
 
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