TRIM Support no longer 'easy' in Yosemite

[AidenShaw]

Macs with Thunderbolt support SSDs connected via thunderbolt. Thunderbolt does support TRIM unlike USB3 which doesn't. I have a 256GB internal SSD on my Mac Pro and need more SSD storage. My choices so far are eBay for a larger internal drive or get some external SSD that supports TRIM that OSX won't allow to work. I would seriously like a 1TB Samsung 850 pro to put in a thunderbolt enclosure and really wish Apple would enable TRIM to work with it.

I don't think that there are any T-Bolt SSDs anywhere.

Aren't most of these T-Bolt enclosures really PCIe SATA controllers with SATA SSDs - which reduces the problem back to support for SATA SSDs?

 

[BurgDog]

I don't think that there are any T-Bolt SSDs anywhere.

Aren't most of these T-Bolt enclosures really PCIe SATA controllers with SATA SSDs - which reduces the problem back to support for SATA SSDs?

Yes, they are PCIe SATA controllers. I am using a RocketStor 5212 dual bay enclosure (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DJ3YEH0/) and really wish I could get TRIM to work on SSDs I hope to put in it.

 

[poiihy]

Does the stock SSD in the new rMBPs also function with trim enabled or does it function without trim?

 

[flowrider]

^^^^Since it's a stock Apple SSD, Trim is enabled by default.

Lou

 

[jdotinc]

Is "manual" TRIM a possability?

Perhaps something that has already be explored (and shot down), but is there any method (short of booting to another drive and running disk repair) to issue a TRIM command to a drive in an ad-hoc way? I'm thinking along the lines of something that would become a maintenance routine, or perhaps a scheduled task (cron, launchd, etc...).

Maybe automatic TRIM is "dead" for 3rd party drives (and those that wish to leave the signed extension feature enabled), but perhaps automatic TRIM isn't really entirely required?

For reference, in Windows 10 TP the "Defragment" tool is essentially replaced by an on-demand TRIM for solid state drives.

 

[VirtualRain]

Perhaps something that has already be explored (and shot down), but is there any method (short of booting to another drive and running disk repair) to issue a TRIM command to a drive in an ad-hoc way? I'm thinking along the lines of something that would become a maintenance routine, or perhaps a scheduled task (cron, launchd, etc...).

Maybe automatic TRIM is "dead" for 3rd party drives (and those that wish to leave the signed extension feature enabled), but perhaps automatic TRIM isn't really entirely required?

For reference, in Windows 10 TP the "Defragment" tool is essentially replaced by an on-demand TRIM for solid state drives.

Yes, but you still need to "enable trim" to do a manual trim. You could temporarily enable it, run repair disk from disk utility (which invokes trim), and then disable it.

However, it seems better to leave it enabled all the time and only disable it when you update Yosemite or feel the need to do a PRAM reset.

 

[m4v3r1ck]

TRIM Support no longer 'easy' in Yosemite

Just did a clean install of Yosemite 10.10.0 (14A389) public release on a EVO in bay #2, downloaded Trim Enabler v3.3 and rebooted:

- 2 EVO's on Velocity DUO X2 in RAID0 -> trim enabled
- 2 EVO's in bay's #1 + #2 -> trim enabled

Trim Enabler by Cindori proofs to be a no brainer for my MP 5.1 (2012)

 

[DPUser]

Apple have done this driver enforcement almost certainly to lock down OS X to prevent the worst possible type of malware/virus/Trojan; called a rootkit accessing the Mac OS as 'root' ie taking complete control of the system. A rootkit uses a device driver in the operating system to accomplish that and hides all its other bot tools from the OS, even from anti virus tools and apples malware protection too.

Looking at it with my windows security hat on I applaud them for doing it, the usb mass storage & ahci SATA driver are key weak points that plague Microsoft and give me work. It should be done.

Problem is that in also keeping the block on non Apple parts in storage devices and also those using newer apple parts to give their own Mac systems a boost, handoff/continuity for example, they lock their loyal enthusiast white hatted fan boys who tell all their friends to get a Mac out of the same protection that signed and locked down root access offers.

Here's my feedback posted shortly

Dear Apple

Please stick all the driver strings for third party ahci devices in your driver and relax the kext restrictions for upgraded genuine Apple parts which you never have to deal with cos they are out of warranty anyway. And give Cindori a really good job please.

Love

Macrumors

Here's mine (Thanks Gav!)

Dear Apple:

In Yosemite, please place driver strings for third party ahci devices in your driver and relax the kext restrictions so we can enable TRIM on our third-party SATA, PCIe, and external Thunderbolt SSDs. I cannot move our systems to Yosemite as currently functioning, and hardware upgrades are thus problematic.

Thank you.

 

[AidenShaw]

Nightmare

Dear Apple:

In Yosemite, please place driver strings for third party ahci devices in your driver and relax the kext restrictions so we can enable TRIM on our third-party SATA, PCIe, and external Thunderbolt SSDs. I cannot move our systems to Yosemite as currently functioning, and hardware upgrades are thus problematic.

Thank you.

Do you realize that you're asking Apple to create a support nightmare?

If a new SSD comes out, it won't TRIM until Apple updates the AHCI stack with the new device string.

Other operating systems don't have lists of all of the device names - they simply use a standard API to ask the drive if it supports TRIM.

 

[MacVidCards]

Imagine if you could email them a kext, they would verify it malware free and send it back with their secret decoder handshake added on.

Should be that easy.

 

[DPUser]

Do you realize that you're asking Apple to create a support nightmare?

If a new SSD comes out, it won't TRIM until Apple updates the AHCI stack with the new device string.

Other operating systems don't have lists of all of the device names - they simply use a standard API to ask the drive if it supports TRIM.

OK. This stuff is a tad over my head. I just want to be able to trim non-Apple drives.

Aiden, I am hoping others will voice requests to Apple for similar (if not more practical) approaches that enable us to accomplish this simple goal. Maybe like MacVid's idea... or yours.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

...you're asking Apple to create a support nightmare...

They do this already for many USB and FireWire devices (cameras, digitizer tablets, ...). OS X loads then the appropriate driver. So where is the problem!?

 

[mrf5]

Perhaps something that has already be explored (and shot down), but is there any method (short of booting to another drive and running disk repair) to issue a TRIM command to a drive in an ad-hoc way? I'm thinking along the lines of something that would become a maintenance routine, or perhaps a scheduled task (cron, launchd, etc...).

Maybe automatic TRIM is "dead" for 3rd party drives (and those that wish to leave the signed extension feature enabled), but perhaps automatic TRIM isn't really entirely required?

For reference, in Windows 10 TP the "Defragment" tool is essentially replaced by an on-demand TRIM for solid state drives.

A maintenance routine for me would be the way to go ... (once i switch to 10.10)

Keep in mind; to trim unused blocks on 10.10 drive/partition,
- “Repair Disk” requires booting from another drive/partition.
- Trim should be enabled (or at least temporarily enabled) on the other drive/partition.
- Trim doesn’t need be enabled on 10.10 drive/partition
- Exclude the recovery partition.

(To avoid using older OS to trim unused blocks)
Other method would be - (temporarily) enable trim on 10.10 drive/partition, enter single user mode issue fsck command then disable trim afterwords.

To enter single user mode - restart - hold down [cmd] + type [fsck -ffy] (notice space before -) when done type exit to reboot.

There could be another method, using “Repair Disk”/ recovery partition...


----------

^ Great discussion!

(assuming there is away to enable trim on 10.10 recovery-partition)
Q. Is 10.10 recovery-partition also requires Kext-signing? or is it relaxed?

Since you will not be modifying any files on the recovery partition, it makes no sense to need disable kext-signing to boot it. The recovery partition is a whole separate set of system files.

(since the recovery partition doesn’t get updated).

Would it be possible to add “trim recovery partition” to TrimEnabler (as advance option)? worth a beer @ Opera café/Stockholm

 

[crjackson2134]

A maintenance routine for me would be the way to go ... (once i switch to 10.10)

Keep in mind; to trim unused blocks on 10.10 drive/partition,
- “Repair Disk” requires booting from another drive/partition.
- Trim should be enabled (or at least temporarily enabled) on the other drive/partition.
- Trim doesn’t need be enabled on 10.10 drive/partition
- Exclude the recovery partition.

(To avoid using older OS to trim unused blocks)
Other method would be - (temporarily) enable trim on 10.10 drive/partition, enter single user mode issue fsck command then disable trim afterwords.

To enter single user mode - restart - hold down [cmd] + type [fsck -ffy] (notice space before -) when done type exit to reboot.

There could be another method, using “Repair Disk”/ recovery partition...


----------





(since the recovery partition doesn’t get updated).

Would it be possible to add “trim recovery partition” to TrimEnabler (as advance option)? worth a beer @ Opera café/Stockholm

Here is a fun experiment for you. Why don't you look up the terminal commands for enabling TRIM for Yosemite, boot into recovery mode and and run the command.

If it works, you can boot into Recovery mode and run the Repair Disk from the Disk Utility and TRIM. Do full maintenance on the drive.

When I'm next able I'll try this, but it will be a week or so before I can get to the desk for a tryout. Have at it! If it works, it could be added to your weekly maintenanace routine.

 

[msbc]

Is it possible to TRIM a Yosemite drive from Mavericks? Keep a minimal 10.9 boot drive/partition for the task?

 

[crjackson2134]

Is it possible to TRIM a Yosemite drive from Mavericks? Keep a minimal 10.9 boot drive/partition for the task?

Yes, you can do that. Just make sure to enable TRIM on the 10.9 install.

 

[AidenShaw]

They do this already for many USB and FireWire devices (cameras, digitizer tablets, ...). OS X loads then the appropriate driver. So where is the problem!?

The problem is that there's no need to update the disk driver (other than one time to add the query for TRIM capability).

Are the USB "drivers" really .kexts, or are they user-mode helper routines that help the kernel drivers deal with minor differences between devices? The latter is often the case.

 

[Gav Mack]

Do you realize that you're asking Apple to create a support nightmare?

If a new SSD comes out, it won't TRIM until Apple updates the AHCI stack with the new device string.

Other operating systems don't have lists of all of the device names - they simply use a standard API to ask the drive if it supports TRIM.

Or they could simply remove the "if genuine apple drive installed - enable trim" and enable it system wide that would be very simple.

They do that and relax the stupid kext restrictions on genuine Apple parts inside genuine mac kit I will be satisfied with that.

Coming from a Windows viewpoint the tighter they lock down usb mass storage the better, that is the key infection point from a hardware angle not the ahci stack.

I will take the 10.9 on a sled option till they wake up and smell the coffee though..

 

[AidenShaw]

Or they could simply remove the "if genuine apple drive installed - enable trim" and enable it system wide that would be very simple.

There's no point in taking the time to send TRIM commands to spinners, and it might cause problems.

Ask the drive if it supports TRIM, and if "yes" send it TRIM commands.

 

[thefredelement]

Hmm, now I'm wondering if they just poll the model ID to see if it contains Apple SSD because they know it's safe to enable TRIM there instead of asking the drive if it supports TRIM.

 

[BurgDog]

Apple originally prevented TRIM on non-Apple SSDs to discourage upgrades of internal drives. Apple wants you to buy their stuff, not someone else's. No valid technical reason to prevent TRIM on TRIM capable SSDs.

Of course Apple doesn't sell upgrades themselves, you must get it right on the build to order page for now and forever. I want to upgrade my 256GB SSD on my stock Mac Pro. Apple won't sell me an upgrade. Third party upgrades don't exist and if/when they do will need to work without TRIM support.

Now that Thunderbolt drives exist and Apple is not in that market at all there is no reason to prevent TRIM on at least external drives.

Apple is being a dick about this because they can.

 

[flowrider]

Well, it seems this issue has now made the national stage:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/41095...wsletter&utm_medium=ttemail&utm_campaign=ttcs

Lou

 

[Badagri]

 

[crjackson2134]

Well, it seems this issue has now made the national stage:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/41095...wsletter&utm_medium=ttemail&utm_campaign=ttcs

Lou

I don't know if it will help, as Apple is pretty stubborn, but I send them feedback complaints about this on a very regular basis. I know it's redundant and probably won't help, but they did respond to the iOS8 Camera Roll debacle.

Imagine if thousands of users bombarded them with Feedback regarding this. Maybe they would provide a solution.

 

[Mactrunk]

Apple has become the new Microsoft.
So sad.