UK Revives Antitrust Probe Into Apple's Browser and Cloud Gaming Restrictions

[BaldiMac]

What point are you trying to make here?

I had two points. First, you weren't responding to the argument that you quoted. Second, the premise that a lack of third-party browsers justified an (or the) investigation is flawed.

As we've discussed before, the push for regulations to specifically target various aspects of Apple's business model isn't about Apple doing something wrong. It's about people and businesses wanting Apple to be forced to support their preferences. Nothing wrong with that in general. Regulations are necessary. I just disagree with the focus of certain regulations and proposals.

For example, on the topic of browser engines, I have no problem with third-party web browsers being able to use their own browser engine. That makes sense as competition for Safari. However, I would be against any regulation that allows other third-party apps to bundle or access other browser engines, because it would lead to bloated apps and cross-platform interfaces that devalue the platform. Just like we see happening on the Mac.

 

[I7guy]

I mean, "Apple doesn't allow third-party browser engines" is a factual and objective statement.

And it’s due to it being a closed ecosystem is also factually true.

In the context of Apple being a dominant player

Well it is t by all metrics, but threading the needle gets it to be a dominant player.

in the UK, that factual statement provides enough reason to start an investigation into Apple's browser practices.

Well that’s the issue, the UK doesn’t like a closed ecosystem even though it’s a lifestyle product.

If your definition of an American company is one that treads over consumer rights then yes,

No my definition is one that consumers can avoid and buy the competition. Unlike air, food or water, one will not die if they don’t get an iPhone. Or if consumers feel the car company, clothing company, cell phone company is somehow treading over their rights, they can vote with their $$&.

the EU doesn't like American companies according to the values you provide. (Why are you talking about the EU anyway? The UK is no longer part of it)

 

[webkit]

Which goes back to the EU wanting to thread the needle to disassemble apples business model. Guilty until proven innocent.

Just as is done in the U.S., the EU and the UK are doing what they should be regarding enforcing antitrust laws and regulations related to activities in their countries/regions but it's a process. Microsoft, as an example, went through various processes in the U.S. over several years in the 1990s with investigations, negotiations, appeals, etc. leading to the eventual 1998 trial followed by post-trial activities. Apple is going through the process(es) now.

Given Apple’s dominance in mobile OS in the UK (iOS having the largest mobile OS share and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS), I think an antitrust ruling against Apple is logical and appropriate here but all of this needs to be worked out through the UK system. That's fair.

 

[I7guy]

Just as is done in the U.S., the EU and the UK are doing what they should be regarding enforcing antitrust laws and regulations related to activities in their countries/regions but it's a process. Microsoft, as an example, went through various processes in the U.S. over several years in the 1990s with investigations, negotiations, appeals, etc. leading to the eventual 1998 trial followed by post-trial activities. Apple is going through the process(es) now.

Given Apple’s dominance in mobile OS in the UK (iOS having the largest mobile OS share and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS), I think an antitrust ruling against Apple is logical and appropriate here but all of this needs to be worked out through the UK system. That's fair.

In the US, there is at least a process. Apple was already sued and they prevailed. Now what, if anything, will come of anything in the future in the US is yet unknown.

Apple being a bit bit player in the UK amongst the myriad of other cell phone manufacturers....it appears Apple is being specifically targeted. Thus that pesky needle.

 

[webkit]

In the US, there is at least a process. Apple was already sued and they prevailed. Now what, if anything, will come of anything in the future in the US is yet unknown.

There's a process in the EU and UK too. That's what has been going on with the various legal arguments, challenges, appeals, etc.

Apple being a bit bit player in the UK amongst the myriad of other cell phone manufacturers....it appears Apple is being specifically targeted. Thus that pesky needle.

A reason for Apple to be facing antitrust issues is because of its dominance in mobile OS (iOS having the largest mobile OS share in the UK and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (such as not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS).

 

[I7guy]

There's a process in the EU and UK too. That's what has been going on with the various legal arguments, challenges, appeals, etc.

There may be a process but it sure wasn’t followed in this instance. Calling apple a gatekeeper is as I said threading the needle.

A reason for Apple to be facing antitrust issues is because of its dominance in mobile OS (iOS having the largest mobile OS share in the UK and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (such as not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS).

Apple really doesn’t have a dominance it’s dwarfed by android. But again threading the needle allows apple to dominant. It depends on the definition.

 

[Samplasion]

Apple really doesn’t have a dominance it’s dwarfed by android.

It does in the UK.

 

[webkit]

There may be a process but it sure wasn’t followed in this instance. Calling apple a gatekeeper is as I said threading the needle.

The process is being followed. That is why you are seeing articles regarding various legal arguments, challenges, appeals, etc.

Apple really doesn’t have a dominance it’s dwarfed by android. But again threading the needle allows apple to dominant. It depends on the definition.

How can you say it's being "dwarfed" by Android when iOS share of mobile OS in the UK is actually greater than Android's share?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The process is being followed. That is why you are seeing articles regarding various legal arguments, challenges, appeals, etc.





How can you say it's being "dwarfed" by Android when iOS share of mobile OS in the UK is actually greater than Android's share?

Because that account isn't listening to a word that is being posted, it is all about the USA being great, Europe is bad, and innovation is being impeded. No regard whatsoever for what the facts are, nor regarding consumer protection and privacy. I think it is a shame as this is actually rather interesting and important.

 

[I7guy]

The process is being followed. That is why you are seeing articles regarding various legal arguments, challenges, appeals, etc.

Where is the guilty verdict? The EU out a wet finger in the air, said Apple is guilty and crafted regulations around apples performance and then made up a market share universe cutting it by operating system instead of manufacturer.

How can you say it's being "dwarfed" by Android when iOS share of mobile OS in the UK is actually greater than Android's share?

It’s dwarfed by android based in units sold.

 

[I7guy]

Because that account isn't listening to a word that is being posted, it is all about the USA being great, Europe is bad, and innovation is being impeded. No regard whatsoever for what the facts are, nor regarding consumer protection and privacy. I think it is a shame as this is actually rather interesting and important.

It is important which is precisely why many here disagree with this legislation for the reasons stated in these circular discussions.

And have the attitude if you don’t like apples’ closed ecosystem figure out which phone manufacturer has the features you are looking for and buy that phone.

 

[webkit]

Where is the guilty verdict? The EU out a wet finger in the air, said Apple is guilty and crafted regulations around apples performance and then made up a market share universe cutting it by operating system instead of manufacturer.

As part of the process, there can be investigations, charges, negotiations, agreements, settlements, etc. Similar happened in the Microsoft case over several years in the 1990s. If no agreements, settlements, concessions, etc. are reached or agreed to and Apple chooses not to follow a particular UK antitrust law, they may end up in a trial where a "guilty" verdict could occur. It's a process.

It’s dwarfed by android based in units sold.

The real issue is about mobile OS usage share but how many "units" of Android were sold in the UK versus iOS?

 

[I7guy]

As part of the process, there can be investigations, charges, negotiations, agreements, settlements, etc. Similar happened in the Microsoft case over several years in the 1990s. If no agreements, settlements, concessions, etc. are reached or agreed to and Apple chooses not to follow a particular UK antitrust law, they may end up in a trial where a "guilty" verdict could occur. It's a process.





The real issue is about mobile OS usage share but how many "units" of Android were sold in the UK versus iOS?

So should we all just agree that government ultimately only does the right thing even when it is wrong? The answer is no at least in this side of then pond.

But it does seem the EU skipped a few steps and went straight for guilty as charged to threaded needle regulations.

 

[webkit]

So should we all just agree that government ultimately only does the right thing even when it is wrong?

No, but just because you may feel a government is "wrong" doesn't mean they are wrong.

Once again, a reason for Apple to be facing antitrust issues is because of its dominance in mobile OS (e.g., iOS having the largest mobile OS share in the UK and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (e.g., not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS). A government would be "right" in wanting to enforce antitrust laws related to a dominant company engaging in anticompetitive behavior in their county/region as we have in this situation.

But it does seem the EU skipped a few steps and went straight for guilty as charged to threaded needle regulations.

No, it doesn't seem like that. Apple has been going through a similar process in the EU too as there have been a number of articles regarding various legal arguments, challenges, etc.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

It is important which is precisely why many here disagree with this legislation for the reasons stated in these circular discussions.

And have the attitude if you don’t like apples’ closed ecosystem figure out which phone manufacturer has the features you are looking for and buy that phone.

Luckily, that is not how the world works, that is precisely how you create division and a not so nice world/country to be in. The government is doing exactly what it should be doing in this instance, it is correct to probe. No different from a private member's club discriminating against whatever! You can bring up the same arguments, like don't join the club, join the one that does allow your kind. What point is there in having laws if they aren't upheld?

 

[I7guy]

Luckily, that is not how the world works,

This is mostly the way the world works. Capitalism, innovation and everything downstream is driven by consumer demand.

that is precisely how you create division and a not so nice world/country to be in. The government is doing exactly what it should be doing in this instance,

I disagree.

it is correct to probe. No different from a private member's club discriminating against whatever! You can bring up the same arguments, like don't join the club, join the one that does allow your kind. What point is there in having laws if they aren't upheld?

As hopefully tax paying and hopefully voting citizens we each have our different viewpoints and are grateful for macrumors to provide a platform to discuss our viewpoints.

 

[I7guy]

No, but just because you may feel a government is "wrong" doesn't mean they are wrong.

Doesn’t mean they are right either.

Once again, a reason for Apple to be facing antitrust issues is because of its dominance in mobile OS

It doesn’t have a dominance in the overall market share of its products.

(e.g., iOS having the largest mobile OS share in the UK and being part of a duopoly with Android) and anticompetitive behavior (e.g., not allowing alternative browser engines on iOS). A government would be "right" in wanting to enforce antitrust laws related to a dominant company engaging in anticompetitive behavior in their county/region as we have in this situation.

Of course threading the needle allows for governments to enforce “alleged anticompetitive” behavior.

No, it doesn't seem like that. Apple has been going through a similar process in the EU too as there have been a number of articles regarding various legal arguments, challenges, etc.

All corporations at one time or another have the eye of regulators for various reasons. Some are guilty as sim and others not so much.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

This is mostly the way the world works. Capitalism, innovation and everything downstream is driven by consumer demand.

I disagree, it is driven by marketing creating that demand where it wasn't there necessarily, and people falling for it.

I disagree.

As hopefully tax paying and hopefully voting citizens we each have our different viewpoints and are grateful for macrumors to provide a platform to discuss our viewpoints.

I pay excessively much tax, and as I'm not a citizen but a resident, I'm not allowed to vote But hey that is my choice. People will always talk and discuss, regardless of macrumors 👍

 

[webkit]

Doesn’t mean they are right either.

Which shows how ridiculous it was for you to ask the question.

It doesn’t have a dominance in the overall market share of its products.

It has dominance in the mobile OS market as part of a duopoly with Android and having the largest share of the mobile OS market in the UK.

Of course threading the needle allows for governments to enforce “alleged anticompetitive” behavior.

They are attempting to enforce their laws, and it’s a process. That’s what governments are supposed to do.

 

[I7guy]

Which shows how ridiculous it was for you to ask the question.

Which shows how ridiculous it is to defend this?

It has dominance in the mobile OS market as part of a duopoly with Android and having the largest share of the mobile OS market in the UK.

They are clearly a minority player in the cell phone market. This all has to do with how the needle was threaded to catch apple in these regulations.

They are attempting to enforce their laws, and it’s a process. That’s what governments are supposed to do.

What laws? That consumers should vote with their $$$?

 

[webkit]

Which shows how ridiculous it is to defend this?

It’s ridiculous to "defend" that governments can be right and wrong? No, it was ridiculous for you to ask the question.

They are clearly a minority player in the cell phone market. This all has to do with how the needle was threaded to catch apple in these regulations.

They are clearly a major player in the mobile OS market and that's really what is relevant here.

They are also clearly a major player in the cell phone (device) market too as iPhones are among the top selling smartphones int he UK. According to Statcounter, Apple has over 50% market share of the mobile device vendor market in the UK.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

What laws? That consumers should vote with their $$$?

Antitrust laws.

 

[I7guy]

It’s ridiculous to "defend" that governments can be right and wrong?

Nonsense. There have been govnerments that have clearly been on the wrong side of things. And some things governments get right and some things they get wrong. Especially when they are not out for the common good of all involved.

No, it was ridiculous for you to ask the question.

No more ridiculous than contortions to defend this type of micro-regulations.

They are clearly a major player in the mobile OS market and that's really what is relevant here.

What is the market share by manufacturer?

They are also clearly a major player in the cell phone (device) market too as iPhones are among the top selling smartphones int he UK.

iphones are also the a top selling device in NYC. But if you look at world-wide stats, not so much.

According to Statcounter, Apple has over 50% market share of the mobile device vendor market in the UK.

That makes them popular, which is the truth. There is no law prohibiting competition in the cellphone market space.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

The contortions of how Apples market share is sliced an diced to support the EU needle threading is mind bending.

Antitrust laws.

There’s an expression if all you have is a nail the entire world looks like a hammer.

 

[webkit]

Nonsense. There have been govnerments that have clearly been on the wrong side of things. And some things governments get right and some things they get wrong. Especially when they are not out for the common good of all involved.

No more ridiculous than contortions to defend this type of micro-regulations.

I stated that governments can be right and wrong which you call "nonsense" and then go on to say governments can be right and wrong. You're becoming more ridiculous with every post.

What is the market share by manufacturer?

In the UK, iOS has around 52% share and Android has around 48% of the mobile OS market according to Statcounter. Apple is clearly a major player in mobile OS.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

iphones are also the a top selling device in NYC. But if you look at world-wide stats, not so much.

I had clearly stated I was referring to the UK (which is the focus of the article). According to Statcounter, Apple has around 52% market share of the mobile device vendor market followed by Samsung with 30% and everyone else has less than 4% each. Apple is clearly a major player in the cell phone (device) market.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

That makes them popular, which is the truth. There is no law prohibiting competition in the cellphone market space.

So, they’ve now gone from being just a "minority" player to being "popular"? You really are becoming more ridiculous with every post and clearly have no comprehensive of how antitrust laws are designed to work.

The contortions of how Apples market share is sliced an diced to support the EU needle threading is mind bending.

There’s an expression if all you have is a nail the entire world looks like a hammer.

More nonsense. Your posts have become so off the wall that I have to wonder if you actually believe what you are writing or are just throwing stuff out there to try to get a reaction. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[I7guy]

I stated that governments can be right and wrong which you call "nonsense" and then go on to say governments can be right and wrong. You're becoming more ridiculous with every post.





In the UK, iOS has around 52% share and Android has around 48% of the mobile OS market according to Statcounter. Apple is clearly a major player in mobile OS.

That doesn’t answer the question. Your grouping doesn’t show the real choice in the consumer markets. You might as well group phones by cell phone chipset.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

Really? Apple is popular and influential, but world wide it’s market share is a minority.

I had clearly stated I was referring to the UK (which is the focus of the article). According to Statcounter, Apple has around 52% market share of the mobile device vendor market followed by Samsung with 30% and everyone else has less than 4% each. Apple is clearly a major player in the cell phone (device) market.

For you to suggest Apple isn't a major player in mobile is delusional nonsense and continues to show just how weak your argument is here.

I would be careful with throwing around the term “delusional”. However according to statista the non-iPhone phones have about 75% market penetration - while Samsung is the top shipping vendor.

So, they’ve now gone from being just a "minority" player to being "popular"? You really are becoming more ridiculous with every post and clearly have no comprehensive of how antitrust laws are designed to work.

A minority player can be popular.

More nonsense. Your posts have become so off the wall that I have to wonder if you actually believe what you are writing or are just throwing stuff out there to try to get a reaction. Therefore, I see no point in continuing this discussion.

To close this off. You are clearly defending this type of investigation/regulatory nonsense- which imo that is what it is and is your prerogative. That is the EU threading the needle. And as I said the aphorism: “if all you have is a nail the world looks like a hammer” applies here.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That doesn’t answer the question. Your grouping doesn’t show the real choice in the consumer markets. You might as well group phones by cell phone chipset.

Really? Apple is popular and influential, but world wide it’s market share is a minority.

I would be careful with throwing around the term “delusional”. However according to statista the non-iPhone phones have about 75% market penetration - while Samsung is the top shipping vendor.

A minority player can be popular.

To close this off. You are clearly defending this type of investigation/regulatory nonsense- which imo that is what it is and is your prerogative. That is the EU threading the needle. And as I said the aphorism: “if all you have is a nail the world looks like a hammer” applies here.

Why are you mixing EU and Uk? They aren’t the same market. Or do you regularly mix USA and Mexican markets as the same?

In the UK iOS and iPhone is the majority platform. In Eau it’s a minority player

And as I have told you before, everything here is based on old laws. In Eau the laws are 30 years old and in UK it’s likely older.