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MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
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South Cackalacky
Is it possible Apple has been releasing updated layers of data without issuing the full graphic update?

I never really had "major" issues with Maps, but it does seem to be REALLY good recently with closed lane updates, routing, business locations (that's a surprise)...all seem to be much better than before.

I would honestly be surprised they are due to regular TomTom or Yelp updates considering that they are so close to launching their own data.

I wish they would at least HINT at some sort of regional launch schedule.
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
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South Cackalacky
And I could always kick myself. Ignored Maps directions on a stupid 10 minute drive to go and vote early. Told me to bypass the highway (quick enter than exit typically). I got on the highway to dead stop traffic. Took at least 10 minutes longer than it would have if I followed the app. Live and learn....
 
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campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
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Is it possible Apple has been releasing updated layers of data without issuing the full graphic update?

I never really had "major" issues with Maps, but it does seem to be REALLY good recently with closed lane updates, routing, business locations (that's a surprise)...all seem to be much better than before.

I would honestly be surprised they are due to regular TomTom or Yelp updates considering that they are so close to launching their own data.

I wish they would at least HINT at some sort of regional launch schedule.
I'd almost typed a bit out a couple of days ago in response to Julien's post but really haven't had too much time. I wrote this post not too long ago in another thread and the second paragraph touches on your question a bit, some of the rest of the post is relevant as well IMHO.

Regarding the rest of it, there's so much more that needs to be accomplished before someone hits the "EXECUTE" button, some of which I've alluded to in these forums in regard to AM. A huge one is liability - I verify everything that goes out of my office, over the past 25 years I'm often the "responsible party" and my insurance bonds aren't cheap even on a 10-acre grading project; Apple would need to provide assurances to pretty much every affected governmental agency that they're "creating" data for is bonded appropriately, keeping in mind that people drive into water bodies or lost in the forest or snowstorm never to be seen alive - I can't even fathom the cost of bonding AM or the cost of legal retainers associated with AM...

Regarding the Yelp bit, I too have noticed much faster updates. A Safeway near a project site permanently closed a couple of weeks ago and Yelp updated their site with the normal "CLOSED" tag - later that day the AM POI marker for both the store and associated pharmacy "disappeared" from AM. I can only guess, I'm surmising that Apple has finally addressed that (CLOSED) tag in their parsing engine. It's about frickin' time...

About timeline, hoo boy, that's a good one. In 2005, I was hired for a hydrologic analysis for a 21-acre site and needed GIS/survey data from two agencies and a county surveyor - it took around 3 weeks just to get the data delivered, a few hours to tie it all together, and a couple of hours to render the site. Getting reliable data is the key, and the backend of securing data is still often slow. Finding common NGS monuments can also be a PITA, keeping in mind that every single county often has their own surveyor with their own way of doing things - none of them do things the same way IMHO. All of this work needs to be verified, tied together with common monuments, and verified again after they're tied together. Surveyors are just about the most cautious professionals I've ever worked with, pretty much on par with insurance underwriters and bonding companies.

And, yes, updates are likely going live as we type this, residing on hidden layers or - more likely - on files on servers that are not yet available to the public with layers that can be exported/imported to publicly-available servers. I am seeing updated aerial data in CA and OR - look up Lakeview OR then pan south to Goose Lake, then zoom in to about 1 inch to 3 miles. That lake spans the OR/CA border, and the newer aerials will definitely show on the CA side with some new detail on the OR side - then switch to "3D mode" and zoom in even more, and you'll see imagery data that wasn't available until recently. Aerials generally are taken twice a year - late spring or early summer and again in mid-winter, depending on what one is seeking to display - the early images will show lots of greenery (great for marketing and those mapping biodiversity) and construction site snapshots and the winter images show detail that is hidden by deciduous cover. Those aerials aren't cheap either, but now that Google's parted with their HD imagery satellites and the summer satellite "season" is over - there's likely a lot of image processing and geotagging going on as I type this! - we might see some additional updates soon. BTW, compare Apple's imagery to that shown by Google/Verizon's MapQuest or that of TomTom (oh, wait, never mind TomTom... :rolleyes:) and you'd see part of what I'm alluding to...
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
5,261
South Cackalacky
I'd almost typed a bit out a couple of days ago in response to Julien's post but really haven't had too much time. I wrote this post not too long ago in another thread and the second paragraph touches on your question a bit, some of the rest of the post is relevant as well IMHO.

Regarding the rest of it, there's so much more that needs to be accomplished before someone hits the "EXECUTE" button, some of which I've alluded to in these forums in regard to AM. A huge one is liability - I verify everything that goes out of my office, over the past 25 years I'm often the "responsible party" and my insurance bonds aren't cheap even on a 10-acre grading project; Apple would need to provide assurances to pretty much every affected governmental agency that they're "creating" data for is bonded appropriately, keeping in mind that people drive into water bodies or lost in the forest or snowstorm never to be seen alive - I can't even fathom the cost of bonding AM or the cost of legal retainers associated with AM...

Regarding the Yelp bit, I too have noticed much faster updates. A Safeway near a project site permanently closed a couple of weeks ago and Yelp updated their site with the normal "CLOSED" tag - later that day the AM POI marker for both the store and associated pharmacy "disappeared" from AM. I can only guess, I'm surmising that Apple has finally addressed that (CLOSED) tag in their parsing engine. It's about frickin' time...

About timeline, hoo boy, that's a good one. In 2005, I was hired for a hydrologic analysis for a 21-acre site and needed GIS/survey data from two agencies and a county surveyor - it took around 3 weeks just to get the data delivered, a few hours to tie it all together, and a couple of hours to render the site. Getting reliable data is the key, and the backend of securing data is still often slow. Finding common NGS monuments can also be a PITA, keeping in mind that every single county often has their own surveyor with their own way of doing things - none of them do things the same way IMHO. All of this work needs to be verified, tied together with common monuments, and verified again after they're tied together. Surveyors are just about the most cautious professionals I've ever worked with, pretty much on par with insurance underwriters and bonding companies.

And, yes, updates are likely going live as we type this, residing on hidden layers or - more likely - on files on servers that are not yet available to the public with layers that can be exported/imported to publicly-available servers. I am seeing updated aerial data in CA and OR - look up Lakeview OR then pan south to Goose Lake, then zoom in to about 1 inch to 3 miles. That lake spans the OR/CA border, and the newer aerials will definitely show on the CA side with some new detail on the OR side - then switch to "3D mode" and zoom in even more, and you'll see imagery data that wasn't available until recently. Aerials generally are taken twice a year - late spring or early summer and again in mid-winter, depending on what one is seeking to display - the early images will show lots of greenery (great for marketing and those mapping biodiversity) and construction site snapshots and the winter images show detail that is hidden by deciduous cover. Those aerials aren't cheap either, but now that Google's parted with their HD imagery satellites and the summer satellite "season" is over - there's likely a lot of image processing and geotagging going on as I type this! - we might see some additional updates soon. BTW, compare Apple's imagery to that shown by Google/Verizon's MapQuest or that of TomTom (oh, wait, never mind TomTom... :rolleyes:) and you'd see part of what I'm alluding to...

What I hope Apple realizes is that the POI data at this point is what will make this transition a "success" or not.

While the routing data/address issues of the past (and distant past if you really thinking about it) are what people remember and to this day find as the biggest fault with AM, I never experienced those issues in all of my travels weekly across the US...or really, never had it happen as much as it did on Google Maps or Waze (more so with Google IMHO).

The noise from outside the US seems quite justified as far as routing is concerned, but it is the POI data and parsing within the US that has really made Apple Maps get so much criticism.

I'm now searching for new businesses or making corrections just to see how fast they are updated...and believe it or not, it is happening VERY fast in my experience. I think if they focus on this aspect first as well as the "to the front door" part of business locations as they mentioned, as well as the 3D "aerial to ground level" street view part of the system, they will have something that makes a huge difference for users. Google just isn't there when it comes to that level of detail. Apple obviously realizes that which is why they are focusing on the next level of directions, but it will be pointless if the base data associated with the business name/location isn't there in the first place.

I'll leave the ground data and routing analysis to you....hah...all I know is, I LOVED the detail of the maps when driving out in NorCal in August. If people love the satellite view during driving while in Google Maps, just wait until the LIDAR 3D satellite view is offered in AM (it MUST be coming eventually)!
 
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campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
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957
A bit of a new update not in CA. Needed to work from home today, office is getting cleaned with no access to my high-res aerials and but the stuff available on AM is suitable for the 30% deliverable I'm planning as it's pretty much a slideshow. I was zeroing in on my projected site and noticed a new delineation in the aerials in the Vancouver WA/Portland OR area, a delineation that more or less splits my projected site - and then I zoomed in a bit...

Pics:
Zoomed Out.png Zoomed In.png

The two thumbnails are on the western fringes of Portland, between Forest Park and St. Johns, straddling a railway line with the Willamette River on the top. The delineation more-or-less splits the images down the middle and is evident in the left image, while fairly evident in the right image, with the newer data on the left of both images. A few bits pop out at me between the two sides: 1) the obvious color shift, 2) the direction of the shadows of the trees, 3) the better detail and different color in the left portion of both images, 4) the obvious blur of the the bridge's first span, and 5) IMO most significantly for the purpose of this thread the presence of the train cars in the left portion of both images as Apple had gone to great lengths to edit out vehicles on bridges in their older map aerials (note that the train just "disappears" in the right image!).

What shows up on my Air 2/iMP/BenQ BL2711U ) all with high-density pixel pitch but not in the low-res screenshot images above is the detail of even the tire tracks of the recently-mowed lawn of the facility on the left of the images.

I performed some scouting in that area about two weeks ago, fired up AM on my iMP and discovered that "crap, these images look like crap..." and leased imagery from Metro (the entity that collects a lot of data around the Portland region, including aerials) - the imagery on the left is on par with those aerials and free, while the Metro data wasn't cheap...
 
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Maxey05

macrumors newbie
Nov 4, 2018
2
0
Apple Maps has come a long way. I still remember when it first came out. It was not accurate and could not be trusted.. But most recently the directions and eta have been spot on! Like the eta to the minute and traffic as it happens. Even with the new Siri Shortcuts it has been usefull since it is actually accurate. Siri can give whoever an eta when you arrive or how long it will take to get to work and when you need to leave. Apple Maps is awesome and I hope people can see that now. Started with a bad rep and difficult to get that back when Google Maps and others are pretty good too.. I just like native apps on iOS.
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
5,261
South Cackalacky
I start a new job tomorrow and just arrived in NYC tonight. Transit directions fro Newark Airport were perfect including the timing for the train.

What really surprised me was how they corrected the HQ location of my new company. I made a note to them the middle of last week. 2 days later, it was corrected on the map.

One thing though, directions to the new location hasn’t caught up yet...weird. I did t realize there were multiple layers.

When I type in the name of the comp at, it pinpoints to the correct location...but when I ask for directions, still wants to take me to the old address.
 

mpavilion

macrumors 65816
Aug 4, 2014
1,461
1,072
SFV, CA, USA
Here is one reason why I find Apple Maps so much better than Google Maps for identifying locations in cities (despite Google’s focus on “places of interest”) — AM shows so much more detail than GM at most levels of resolution. You need to zoom in really far to GM to start seeing most of the individual place labels — too far to really be useful.

For example, see attachments — a dense business district, as rendered by AM and GM at approximately the same “zoom” level.
 

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gwhizkids

macrumors G5
Jun 21, 2013
13,260
21,405
I start a new job tomorrow and just arrived in NYC tonight. Transit directions fro Newark Airport were perfect including the timing for the train.

What really surprised me was how they corrected the HQ location of my new company. I made a note to them the middle of last week. 2 days later, it was corrected on the map.

One thing though, directions to the new location hasn’t caught up yet...weird. I did t realize there were multiple layers.

When I type in the name of the comp at, it pinpoints to the correct location...but when I ask for directions, still wants to take me to the old address.
Congrats on the new job and welcome to the Tri-State area (from another former Michigander)
 

gwhizkids

macrumors G5
Jun 21, 2013
13,260
21,405
Still living in MI...but will be in NYC/NJ at least one week a month as well as Boston and the rest of NE. There are worst places to travel to regularly... ;)
I know...I am in Boston 2.5 days every week (live in CT). Enjoy!
 

D3PO

macrumors newbie
Nov 3, 2018
6
1
Australia
About a week ago I noticed that Apple had been rolling out new map data for Hawaii:

AM-Hawaii.png


I was originally expecting southern California or Nevada to be next on the list, so now I'm really curious what the release order is going to be.
 

D3PO

macrumors newbie
Nov 3, 2018
6
1
Australia
Not saying you are wrong, but how do you know it is updated?

More detailed greenery, building footprints for every city, parking lot details, sporting fields / golf course details, etc. It's similar to what we saw changed/improved during the northern California rollout.

I can grab a few more screenshots of the new data if you'd like.
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
5,261
South Cackalacky
More detailed greenery, building footprints for every city, parking lot details, sporting fields / golf course details, etc. It's similar to what we saw changed/improved during the northern California rollout.

I can grab a few more screenshots of the new data if you'd like.

Not necessary...just curious since nothing was announced and I wouldn’t have noticed it on my own.
 

campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
3,413
957
I'm still not sure that Apple has their sh..., er, crap together regarding routing. I was out today scouting project sites with one of my partners, she received a call meet up with a client who was at the northern Vancouver WA Washington State University campus (there's two WSU extension campuses in Vancouver). So, it went something like this while we were about 10 miles away from that campus...

"Hey, Siri navigate to the Washington State University campus". Siri was getting directions, got directions, started navigation and directed me to I-205 South. I was already south of the WSU campus...

I'll spare ya'll the rest of it. I was being directed to WSU. In Pullman. 297 miles away. 6-odd hours of driving. Ugh.

I pulled over, gave Siri one more chance asking for Washington State University in Vancouver and getting feedback along the lines of "Huh?/What?/I can't help you." I opened Google Maps and located the campus in seconds, fired up its navigation and got there in 9 minutes (I wasn't that far away but wasn't sure of the entrance - sheepishly admitting that despite having designed one of the roadways to that campus around 15 years ago :oops:, I just hadn't been back since then...).

If you're attending WSU in Vancouver, don't use AM...
 
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mpavilion

macrumors 65816
Aug 4, 2014
1,461
1,072
SFV, CA, USA
I'm still not sure that Apple has their sh..., er, crap together regarding routing. I was out today scouting project sites with one of my partners, she received a call meet up with a client who was at the northern Vancouver WA Washington State University campus (there's two WSU extension campuses in Vancouver). So, it went something like this while we were about 10 miles away from that campus...

"Hey, Siri navigate to the Washington State University campus". Siri was getting directions, got directions, started navigation and directed me to I-205 South. I was already south of the WSU campus...

I'll spare ya'll the rest of it. I was being directed to WSU. In Pullman. 297 miles away. 6-odd hours of driving. Ugh.

I pulled over, gave Siri one more chance asking for Washington State University in Vancouver and getting feedback along the lines of "Huh?/What?/I can't help you." I opened Google Maps and located the campus in seconds, fired up its navigation and got there in 9 minutes (I wasn't that far away but wasn't sure of the entrance - sheepishly admitting that despite having designed one of the roadways to that campus around 15 years ago :oops:, I just hadn't been back since then...).

If you're attending WSU in Vancouver, don't use AM...

Using Siri vs. Google Maps is comparing (rotten) apples to oranges. You could have opened up Apple Maps and compared with Google Maps. Of course Siri sucks, that’s no surprise...
 

campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
3,413
957
Using Siri vs. Google Maps is comparing (rotten) apples to oranges. You could have opened up Apple Maps and compared with Google Maps. Of course Siri sucks, that’s no surprise...
Yeah, but there was this driving on the interstate bit at the time that kind of got in the way. No offense, Google's offering isn't all that either. At least we have options...
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
5,261
South Cackalacky
Yeah, but there was this driving on the interstate bit at the time that kind of got in the way. No offense, Google's offering isn't all that either. At least we have options...

I doubt manually entering the request in Maps would have resulted in a different outcome. Siri has nothing to do with the parsing deficiencies.
 

campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
3,413
957
I doubt manually entering the request in Maps would have resulted in a different outcome. Siri has nothing to do with the parsing deficiencies.
Four letters - wash - on my Max... :mad:

IMG_40504534C727-1.jpeg

FWIW, Siri related back that it couldn't find any place named Washington State University Vancouver. Funny that it directed me to Pullman, with 4 closer WSU campuses around the state.
 
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