Updating an 27 inch iMac 2017

[Frame2023]

Gosh! What a ridiculous nightmare opening and upgrading the iMac! But success - another tiny blow against the evil empire, but it took me two complete days to swap hard disk, blade and CPU even though I had iFixit articles, instruction videos and even the Apple Technician' Guide at hand. It took so long Mostly because of the fragile display glass.
It literally gave me headaches up to the very last moment when it slipped over the bottom rim, though it was secured by tape as proposed in the technicians guide. Probably Apple has a complete department focused on giving DIYers hell: The fragile or extremely tight sitting connectors, the RAM cage that prevents to work on the CPU, the "bent plate mech" with screws being too short to tighten the heatsink back to the CPU-you need to find a way to bend the plate while forcing in the screw that itself is forced into an angle by the plate. Why didn't they use springs, as they did with the GPU? I lost two hours only by thinking the mic connection was dead as it has a very fragile connector - in fact it was covered by the VHB (Very High Bondage - we'll see) tape. You could open a PowerMac G4 by pulling a handle...
So, the hard disk is a Samsung 870 EVO, blade is a Crucial P3 4TB, adapter is nameless and long. I did cut it
and put a small strip of Kapton tape between the adapter and the shlielding of the iMacs socket as the plugs's pin-traces
could short. You can also use a thin sheet of plastic from packing, just 3mm wide and bent in the middle to a 90°angle. I bought the CPU used (wouldn't have done it if I knew the stress and quirks of disassembly and reassembly) passed CPU-test.
But the Evil Empire does not sleep: Installed Ventura on the blade, Sierra 10.12.6 and Mojave reside on the Samsung SSD. All fine until I boot from Ventura into Mojave (Sierra will not recognize the blade - normal behaviour) - I get the "Incompatible Disc" Message - Ventura will not show up as startup disk nor will it show when booting while holding the option key. Any ideas?

 

[mikehalloran]

Gosh! What a ridiculous nightmare opening and upgrading the iMac! But success - another tiny blow against the evil empire, but it took me two complete days to swap hard disk, blade and CPU even though I had iFixit articles, instruction videos and even the Apple Technician' Guide at hand. It took so long Mostly because of the fragile display glass.
It literally gave me headaches up to the very last moment when it slipped over the bottom rim, though it was secured by tape as proposed in the technicians guide. Probably Apple has a complete department focused on giving DIYers hell: The fragile or extremely tight sitting connectors, the RAM cage that prevents to work on the CPU, the "bent plate mech" with screws being too short to tighten the heatsink back to the CPU-you need to find a way to bend the plate while forcing in the screw that itself is forced into an angle by the plate. Why didn't they use springs, as they did with the GPU? I lost two hours only by thinking the mic connection was dead as it has a very fragile connector - in fact it was covered by the VHB (Very High Bondage - we'll see) tape. You could open a PowerMac G4 by pulling a handle...
So, the hard disk is a Samsung 870 EVO, blade is a Crucial P3 4TB, adapter is nameless and long. I did cut it
and put a small strip of Kapton tape between the adapter and the shlielding of the iMacs socket as the plugs's pin-traces
could short. You can also use a thin sheet of plastic from packing, just 3mm wide and bent in the middle to a 90°angle. I bought the CPU used (wouldn't have done it if I knew the stress and quirks of disassembly and reassembly) passed CPU-test.
But the Evil Empire does not sleep: Installed Ventura on the blade, Sierra 10.12.6 and Mojave reside on the Samsung SSD. All fine until I boot from Ventura into Mojave (Sierra will not recognize the blade - normal behaviour) - I get the "Incompatible Disc" Message - Ventura will not show up as startup disk nor will it show when booting while holding the option key. Any ideas?

Yes.

A Sierra drive cannot see an APFS formatted drive and there's nothing you can do about that—I posted this earlier.

Option-Boot should still work, however and I'm surprised that it doesn't but Apple made some fundamental changes under the hood for MacOS 13 and that may be the real issue. You don't say how you installed Ventura so it may be user error.

Here's what to do. Make a Ventura installer USB drive (16GB or larger) if you don't have one already — Apple has instructions. Booting from the flash drive, you should see both drives. If you don't see the P3, you messed something up during the installation. Assuming that you do see the blade, reinstall Ventura onto it. This is how you should have done it in the first place (cloning does not work for this if that's what you did).

When done, you should be now be able to select it as your boot drive and Option-boot should work. If it does not, then it's time to give up on Sierra and update to High Sierra or Mojave since that will force the drive to format APFS and the system will see both. (oh yea, I've recommended that, too).

I recommend learning about APFS and Volumes. When you do, you will create a High Sierra or Mojave Volume on that P3 and the 870 will be storage only. You can Option Boot or Select Startup Disk into each other at will and maintain the maximum speed your Mac can handle. This also frees up space on the 870 by removing the MacOS. My iMac Pro runs Ventura but I have a Mojave volume on it for a couple of 32 bit apps that I still run.

Apple has never written the white paper explaining APFS as many 3rd party utility companies complain. It does work brilliantly, however, when used as Apple intends.

 

[Frame2023]

Dear Mike,
I cannot and will not give up on Sierra because of software like the Final Cut Studio suite. FCP (preX) was a real threat to Avid, THE program for professional editing, and took a lot of market shares. But Steve Jobs decided to focus on the youtubers with the reworked FCPX. Premiere never filled the footsteps. I do the complete editing and final mixing on Sierra.
I use higher OS' for colour correction. As someone hacked FCP7 to run on Mojave, I can do color correction with a rather new version of DaVinci resolve. Ventura would be only to keep up with software like Fusion 360 and for security / accessing the Internet.
Current situation: I have Sierra and Mojave on a Samsung 870EVO on the SATA connection, formatted Mac OS Extended.
The blade, a Crucial P3 4TB can be accessed and formatted while running Mojave.
I did not install Ventura using an USB Stick but using the full Installer residing in Mojaves applications folder.
I assume this should make no difference? Physically, Mojave is on another disk.
Ventura gets successfully installed. But I get the "Incompatible Disk" message when running Mojave and Ventura does not show up as boot volume.
Next, I made a clean install of Mojave on the P3 blade, APFS. Mojave shows up. As proposed by Apple, I created a new volume on the blade and installed Ventura, same like your system . But Ventura does not show up in the startup menu and again the "Incompatible Disk" - message. But I forgot to check from Mojave residing on the blade, if the error appears, because after erasing the blade, I tried Monterey, same result as with Ventura: Does not show up, "Incompatible Disk" Message
So if there was a user error, it could be only related of not using an USB stick but installing from another drive.
BTW, iMac 18,3 Boot ROM Version: 515.0.0.0.0, SMC Version : 2.41f2
All the best, Frame

 

[mikehalloran]

You installed Ventura from an installer and didn't clone or copy. So that was done correctly.

Your problem is that you have Sierra on the other drive. For all of your bla, bla, bla about FCP 7, the fact is that, if that's the prime requirement, you are stuck. Had you mentioned it in your earlier posts, my advice would have been a bit different.

You might try downgrading to Mojave on the P3. That will require erasing and a clean install plus migrating your apps from a Mojave drive. Run Time Machine hourly for 24 hours to get some APFS Snapshots in the system. If that works and you can Option Boot into either drive, try updating to Monterey. Because of APFS Snapshots, you have a 24 hour window to roll back without a complete Time Machine restore. Ventura changed some of this, BTW. Read my thread here to learn how this works (and doesn't with Ventura).
APFS Snapshots Recovery Tool

If that doesn't do it for you, I can think of only one other thing to try:

Sierra will not install on an NVMe 3 x4 blade and there's no getting around that. It will install on the AHCI blades that shipped on the 2013–2015 and 2017 Fusion drive iMacs as well as the 2013–2018 Mac Pro 6.1. AHCI blades have the correct pin-out without an adapter and were available from OWC up to 4TB but due to heat issues, not recommended in an iMac over 2TB. These cannot operate faster than 1/6 the speed of an NVMe 3 x4 blade like the P3 but they're still 3x faster than any SATA III SSD like the 870. They were discontinued years ago but you may find them on eBay etc.

Do not assume that any blade you find with the correct pin-out is AHCI. OWC has been selling NVMe 3 x4 blades with the same pin-out but with the usual fine print:

NOTE: Aura Pro X2 is designed for APFS file system available on macOS 10.13 High Sierra or higher. Upgrade to macOS 10.13 or higher before Aura Pro X2 SSD install.

I know FCP 7 and Studio 3 and still have a friend doing pro work in it on a Mac that I set up for the use seven years ago.

As for myself, I have moved on, finding Resolve and Premiere suit my needs. If you've not tried FCPx since 2019, you might be quite surprised that it has received two major updates to meet the needs of Mac Pro 7.1 and 8.1 users—it's pretty good now.

 

[Frame2023]

It is a difference whether you "move on" with your software or your work. Avid never basically reworked the GUI for almost 30 years for a good reason - pro editors do not want to think about fancy new software features but about story structure. As of 2023, the top ten of best edited movies were edited on Steenbecks and Moviolas. My last documentary feature had cinema distribution - this meant preparing sound for 5.1 surround mixing. Defunct Bla, bla, bla "Soundtrack" is the only audio software that allows to set up 5.1 projects without attaching 5.1 / multichannel hardware. From there, I can migrate to ProTools via OMF / AAF. Also read this article, I assume nothing has changed in the last 10 years: https://www.niwa.nu/2013/05/generations-a-problem-or-not/

Your problem is that you have Sierra on the other drive.

So? Where is the problem as long as I also use Mojave. Again, Mojave is part of the workflow.

You might try downgrading to Mojave on the P3. That will require erasing and a clean install plus migrating your apps from a Mojave drive. Run Time Machine hourly for 24 hours to get some APFS Snapshots in the system. If that works and you can Option Boot into either drive, try updating to Monterey. Because of APFS Snapshots, you have a 24 hour window to roll back without a complete Time Machine restore. Ventura changed some of this, BTW. Read my thread here to learn how this works (and doesn't with Ventura).
APFS Snapshots Recovery Tool

Which I already did, to test whether it is the blade that prevents a startup disk being shown.
What I did not is to update the Mojave partition on the blade.

 

[Frame2023]

Update: I did do a fresh install of Mojave on the blade.
Installed Ventura over Mojave - works! Ventura can be chosen now while option booting.
Now I have Mojave and Sierra on the slower Samsumg 870 EVO Sata SSD,
Ventura on the blade. Both worlds, the better software from 2011
and the latest from 2023 combined in one machine.
I can now option boot from Sierra or Mojave into Ventura.
In Ventura, i can choose Mojave or Sierra as startup disks.
Many thanks for the advices!

 

[UbiCrea]

Hi, I'm uphrading my iMac 2017 27" with a pcie blade nvme ssd.
I can buy for cheap a Samsung 980 Pro 1tb but i'm afraid about the firmware issue as I dont have a pc... Anyway to be sure it would work ? Can I upgrade it in an enclosure connected to my imac ?
Thanks

 

[UbiCrea]

Hi to all. I've followed this thread as I've a 2017 imac base model.
I opened it yesterday to do a basic upgrade aka nvme ssd boost.
I really hesitated to buy a Samsung pro 980 on the second market but after reading many post about the trim issues... And for money reasons, I finally decided to just put a spare Samsung 950 Pro 512gb in place of the apple blade.
I bought on amazon an adapter :
BEYIMEI M.2 NVMe SSD to 12+16 Pin Upgrade Adapter for MacBook Air (Late2013-2017) A1465 、A1466 and Mac Pro A1398 、A1502 (2014-2015 Year) https://amzn.eu/d/iii9qiZ
I took care of putting a small tape to cover the pins just before the black plastic slot and avoid shortcuts when in the apple slot. I saw few post about this.
I took also the opportunity to clean everything apart the thermal paste as I don't have good quality past at the moment. And I will probably do this next time if I upgrade the cpu.
My imac has 40gb of memory (16x2 + 4x2).
I've let the 1tb spinning hdd inside to avoid any fan issues and I've mounted it as a backup.
I had also bought the adhesive for the screen.
So far so good, after having tested the mac for the afternoon, and checked everything was working correctly, I reglued the screen and voilà.
Regarding my ssd, speedwise, I get 1450mbs writing and 2650mbs reading. That's not lightning fast but still much more snappy than before. And it was 'free' as it was on my shelf...
Installation wise, it was a bit challenging as I didn't disband the fusion drive before to to the surgery.
So in the recovery, I was not able to see the ssd. I wanted to restore it from my current setup to get back all my software and configurations etc...
So first I did a restore on a 1tb external hdd.
Then I had to go on terminal and finally find my ssd using the diskutil apfs list. Then I had to erase it.
After I went back to the disk utility app and I saw my ssd but curiously the hdd was now greyed and not accessible or mountable.
At this point it was not a big deal as my main objective was to have my ssd up and running.
I then restored my ssd from the external hdd and then booted back the imac.
I also reset the nvram and smc.
I found back my system already configured, good.
Then in macos I went in the disk utility and formated the internal 1tb hdd to use it as a backup.
All good now.
I've extremely happy to have upgraded my imac.
In total, I bought this imac 7 days ago for a cheap price, like 350$ in close to mint condition. No pink borders, keyboard and mouse like new..
I added 40$ for the 32gb ram (second hand).
I added 16$ for the ssd adapter and the screen adhesives.
And I had my spare ssd.
So I've now a superb imac 27" 2017 with 40gb or memory, a 512gb ssd nvme + 1tb hdd... All this for a total of less than 410$.
🎉🚀🔥

 

[mikehalloran]

but after reading many post about the trim issues

Well, a lot of people post without having a clue about the subject at hand.

There are no TRIM issues with an NVMe blade. It's part of the MacOS since 10.6.8.

TRIM is blocked by default on 2.5" SATA III SSDs. Apple never installed one on anything they ever made. Apparently, there were issues with some of the first few 2.5" SSDs and TRIM was blamed by some. BTW, the 2012 27" iMac did have a SATA III drive on some builds but it was a blade, not a 2.5" form, so TRIM is automatically enabled.

The only time that TRIM is blocked on a blade is when it's in an external housing connected via USB—Apple doesn't support TRIM over USB and there's no way to enable it (this may have changed with USB 4 but Apple supports Thunderbolt 4 built over the USB 4 protocol so not an issue). If connected via Thunderbolt or eSATA (many 2012 and older Macs could be modified), it's automatically enabled.

Garbage Collection in drive firmware does a similar job preparing cells for new data once erased but TRIM and Garbage Collection working together can prepare the cells much faster than GC by itself.

 

[mikehalloran]

Update: I did do a fresh install of Mojave on the blade.
Installed Ventura over Mojave - works! Ventura can be chosen now while option booting.
Now I have Mojave and Sierra on the slower Samsumg 870 EVO Sata SSD,
Ventura on the blade. Both worlds, the better software from 2011
and the latest from 2023 combined in one machine.
I can now option boot from Sierra or Mojave into Ventura.
In Ventura, i can choose Mojave or Sierra as startup disks.
Many thanks for the advices!

Mojave was a bit problematic. I had to reinstall on many client machines as well as my own for certain things to work properly.

Glad you got everything working.

 

[Frame2023]

Very likely Mojave was not the problem here. For updating to a new OS, wise men preach since decades to erase the disk, do a fresh install of the newer OS and then migrate apps, documents, settings from the old system.
But in my case, updating Ventura from Mojave probably helped to keep something on the disk that makes it visible for the Macs firmware while option booting from earlier systems like Sierra 10.12.
About trimming: As far as I remember, according to the system profiler, trimming was not enabled on the blade by default…? But it should? I had to enable it, at least on Mojave and Sierra 10.12.6.
I assume this was because the blade is non-Apple.
Anyway, not the slightest problem for a month now. And I even upgraded to a used CPU, first time ever I took the risk.

 

[Frame2023]

A little problem has shown up, but I assume it is not related to the upgrade. With Ventura 13.5.1, over days, boot up (White bar and Apple logo) becomes slower and slower before the login-window appears. I left the Mac running over night and system maintenance fixed this, but the boot up becomes slow again. What could it be?

 

[el.rafar]

So Hello everyone again has been some time, and now to new upgrades to the 2017 5k iMac.

First I finally changed the processor to the 7700k, found a nice deal here in Brazil and went for it.
After doing the change, repaste everything I had a small problem, the 7700k didn't liked my 4 x 8GB sticks of ram. Reseated the cpu, and it always turned on but was really unstable. Everything crashed as soon as the OS started using RAM.

Using just two sticks worked perfectly so I ordered 2 x 16GB Kingston Impact 32000 MT/s CL 20, great RAM the system is super responsive.

One thing I noticed is that, well it is a hotter CPU than the original 7600k, sometimes it will to up to 100* C under heavy load, does anyone have that experience with de 7700K or other hot CPU on the 27 inch iMac?

Doing Geekbench 6 I get just a bit higher scores that the website 7700K comparison... so both are thermal limited?

Also, looking at the intel power gadget my older 7600k did not go past 45... 50W of PKG power on a 91W TDP CPU I always thought that I was leaving performance on the table... now the 7700K happily goes up to 80W if needed.

Some tests that I have done: (the temps were taken with Microsoft Teams, Outlook, WhatsApp and Safari running.)

If any