USB-A

[ignatius345]

I hope it didn’t take you 26 hours and a failed migration to figure it out. Why do I say that? Oh, no reason. No reason at all. 😫

No shame to anyone reading this thread and didn’t know all of this. A lot of us explaining didn’t know it either until we made a mistake that forced us to understand.

LOL fortunately no, but I did buy a Thunderbolt 4 cable specifically to migrate my old iMac to my new one because I only had very slow little cables sitting around. I usually have used Migration Assistant through a Time Machine backup, but this time I decided to go direct from computer to computer.

Oddly the first time it tried to migrate over wifi even though the cable was attached. I had to stop that mess from happening (which probably would've taken ages for 750 GB of data) and re-initiate the process through Thunderbolt. Once I did that, it flew through it brilliantly.

 

[Altis]

This is false, if you have a Mac mini and an apple wireless mouse and keyboard you can pair them during first boot.

You're telling me it's false when I have two, a newer full-size black version and an older silver compact, and the Mini's first boot screen had nothing to do with mouse/keyboard but expected me to input (can't remember which screen but I think it was region). I tried for several minutes to get it to work but eventually just gave up and plugged in USB-A and everything worked.

I couldn't get it past that until I connected a keyboard via USB. The full-size wireless Apple keyboard has a lightning to USB-A cable so once you connect that, it pairs it. But it wouldn't offer it to pair before that.

Maybe it's because they were previously paired to other devices. I have to leave the wireless keyboard connected to the USB hub (again, USB-A) so that whichever computer I turn on has it connected.

 

[jaytv111]

You're telling me it's false when I have two, a newer full-size black version and an older silver compact, and the Mini's first boot screen had nothing to do with mouse/keyboard but expected me to input (can't remember which screen but I think it was region). I tried for several minutes to get it to work but eventually just gave up and plugged in USB-A and everything worked.

I couldn't get it past that until I connected a keyboard via USB. The full-size wireless Apple keyboard has a lightning to USB-A cable so once you connect that, it pairs it. But it wouldn't offer it to pair before that.

Maybe it's because they were previously paired to other devices. I have to leave the wireless keyboard connected to the USB hub (again, USB-A) so that whichever computer I turn on has it connected.

Yeah, they require the plugging in to pair for Apple's keyboards and mice with Lightning or USB-C. Previous Apple accessories (that had AA batteries and no ports) have to be paired in the Bluetooth menu. But when Apple includes a keyboard and mouse in the box, those are pre-paired, which is only the iMac or Mac Pro these days, Mini and Studio have no included KB or mouse.

Ouch I just found out from Google search that for Bluetooth LE, non-Apple devices they won't even work on login screens, you need USB (can be wireless but you'd need a USB dongle), or to use Apple's keyboards and mice on the login screen if you use Bluetooth LE, a bit of a problem if you're on a Mac desktop, though Macbooks you can use the Macbook keyboard. Got to keep a USB keyboard around for Mac desktops or use Apple's keyboards!

K580 keyboard is not recognized at login when Mac computer is turned on

This happens because Mac OS X doesn’t load the Bluetooth Low Energy driver at the login stage. Your K580 uses Bluetooth Low Energy 4.1 and won't be recognized when you first turn on your Mac. NOTE...

support.logi.com

 

[Altis]

I was briefly annoyed by the removal of USB-A and then gave my head a shake. USB-A (and its superposition) needs to die and every time a Windows hardware revision comes out and is still 90%+ USB-A, I get annoyed. I use Brother printers and will now give them a quick scolding.

Why does it need to die, exactly?

The advantages of USB-C (power and speed) only apply to a minority of USB devices. There's nothing inherently wrong with USB-A which is why it's been the standard for almost 30 years. The front USB-C ports on the Mini are no faster than they would be with USB-A anyways (10 Gb/s), so even the speed really depends. It's overkill for connecting lots of low bitrate, low power devices.

Printers, scanners, mice, keyboards, thumb drives/external storage -- not to mention all kinds of specialized stuff -- still comes standard with USB-A. Having one or two ports on the computer just makes sense given it's still the norm.

The obvious solution would have been to change all the peripherals to USB-C and only once that's done, start removing USB-A from the computer. But Apple did it the other way around and it's the early adopters having to use hubs, dongles, and adapters.

 

[Altis]

Yeah, they require the plugging in to pair for Apple's keyboards and mice with Lightning or USB-C. Previous Apple accessories (that had AA batteries and no ports) have to be paired in the Bluetooth menu. But when Apple includes a keyboard and mouse in the box, those are pre-paired, which is only the iMac or Mac Pro these days, Mini and Studio have no included KB or mouse.

Ouch I just found out from Google search that for Bluetooth LE, non-Apple devices they won't even work on login screens, you need USB (can be wireless but you'd need a USB dongle), or to use Apple's keyboards and mice on the login screen if you use Bluetooth LE, a bit of a problem if you're on a Mac desktop, though Macbooks you can use the Macbook keyboard. Got to keep a USB keyboard around for Mac desktops or use Apple's keyboards!

K580 keyboard is not recognized at login when Mac computer is turned on

This happens because Mac OS X doesn’t load the Bluetooth Low Energy driver at the login stage. Your K580 uses Bluetooth Low Energy 4.1 and won't be recognized when you first turn on your Mac. NOTE...

support.logi.com

That's interesting. Thank you for explaining the details behind it.

I have more keyboards than I care to admit, but my problem would have been connecting it to the Mini at all (same with the mouse). I, fortunately, have a Dell monitor with built-in USB hub and several USB-A ports, and even more fortunate that there was a USB-C to USB-C cable in the monitor box that allowed me to connect both the monitor and the hub with one connection.

I think I would have been stuck otherwise. I remember when I bought the iMac, the first thing it did was go for bluetooth pairing, so I suppose that's what I expected with the M4 Mini too.

 

[jaytv111]

That's interesting. Thank you for explaining the details behind it.

I have more keyboards than I care to admit, but my problem would have been connecting it to the Mini at all (same with the mouse). I, fortunately, have a Dell monitor with built-in USB hub and several USB-A ports, and even more fortunate that there was a USB-C to USB-C cable in the monitor box that allowed me to connect both the monitor and the hub with one connection.

I think I would have been stuck otherwise. I remember when I bought the iMac, the first thing it did was go for bluetooth pairing, so I suppose that's what I expected with the M4 Mini too.

Apple's keyboards have the USB-C to Lightning or USB-C to USB-C cable included in the box currently, I think your black one would've had that?

But if you don't have the cable, you can buy the right cable, or you can buy a simple USB-A to USB-C adapter, it's fairly trivial to get one these days, get one at Walmart or really any place with electronics.

 

[ignatius345]

Printers, scanners, mice, keyboards, thumb drives/external storage -- not to mention all kinds of specialized stuff -- still comes standard with USB-A.

In many of the cases you just replace the cable and move on. I have a few devices that still connect via icky mini USB or micro USB on board the device. Each of them shipped with a cable that had USB-A on the computer end... and guess what? I bought USB-C versions of each cable quite cheaply. So, voila, an ereader I bought in like 2018 is hooked up to a 2024 iMac and doesn't need a dongle or hub.

Fact is, USB-A has been superceded. Yes, it's ubiquitous and will not disappear overnight. But we are in the phasing it out part of the process, which means the port disappears and you replace cables or use adapters (big whoop).

I, for one, will be very happy to never again put a bloody USB in backwards and have to reorient it endlessly because it's not reversible.

 

[jent]

Putting it another way: companies that continue to produce/include USB-A cables are outing themselves as outdated and cheap. Apple is slightly contributing to the slow but eventual dying off of their ubiquity by dropping the ports from their product line, and this is very much in line with Apple's history.

Apple dropped the 3.5mm audio jack from the iPhone quite early on, Apple fans and haters alike mostly lamented it, and now other companies are following suit. Apple ditched the SIM card tray on iPhones unless required (like in China). The original iMac was critiqued for not having a floppy drive. Apple never outfitted Blu-Ray drives in Macs, and just let the optical drive die off with DVD. I totally get people wanting USB-A ports, but I personally prefer just using adapters or buying the appropriate USB-C cable myself.

 

[smirking]

There's nothing inherently wrong with USB-A which is why it's been the standard for almost 30 years.

It does work fine, and there are even some edge cases where it's still better, but it's time to move on.

Tomorrow's devices are all smaller in form factor and more interconnected. There's no point in saddling the devices of the future with the weight of legacy when you can make the devices of the past work fine with adapters that cost almost nothing.

 

[GusBougadis]

I’m just curious, why would the new Mac Mini not come with USB-A ports on the back?

I understand laptops not wanting to try to fit these larger ports in their already very tight space. But why would a desktop not include such an inexpensive and useful port?

I want to upgrade from my old Mac Mini to a new one and now I have to go out and get not only a USB hub, but one that is powered because my little mobile scanner that I use on my desktop needs a powered USB-A port.

USB A is old. Time to move on.

 

[ApplesAreSweet&Sour]

The thing is, it just doesn’t seem like a legacy port. Normal products that you buy today use USB-A.

Because of the EU USB-C legislation, USB-A is rapidly becoming a legacy port:

Ordering/making only one type of port is a lot less expensive than making several different kinds.

Might not be more than a few cents saved per product sold. But these are businesses making for-profit products, and the "for profit" only cares to make more profit.

So, while not forced by law to go USB-C for their entire line-up of products, most brands will still move to USB-C ports for the rest of their products simply to cut costs by streamlining manufacturing (of ports).

 

[Allen_Wentz]

Why does it need to die, exactly?

The advantages of USB-C (power and speed) only apply to a minority of USB devices. There's nothing inherently wrong with USB-A which is why it's been the standard for almost 30 years. The front USB-C ports on the Mini are no faster than they would be with USB-A anyways (10 Gb/s), so even the speed really depends. It's overkill for connecting lots of low bitrate, low power devices.

Printers, scanners, mice, keyboards, thumb drives/external storage -- not to mention all kinds of specialized stuff -- still comes standard with USB-A. Having one or two ports on the computer just makes sense given it's still the norm.

The obvious solution would have been to change all the peripherals to USB-C and only once that's done, start removing USB-A from the computer. But Apple did it the other way around and it's the early adopters having to use hubs, dongles, and adapters.

No. It is not just "the early adopters having to use hubs" because even if Apple provided USB-A "one or two ports" most folks need more USB-A style ports than one or two anyway. Basically everyone should have at least a cheap powered USB-A hub, and many of us may want a more expensive dock to provide our own user-specific multiple port needs.

And yes, there is something "inherently wrong with USB-A." USB-A is old and slow and asymmetrical. Time to move on. Apple is smart to encourage USB-C with its faster protocols and symmetrical plugs. Slower asymmetrical USB-A should be discouraged.

 

[Altis]

In many of the cases you just replace the cable and move on. I have a few devices that still connect via icky mini USB or micro USB on board the device. Each of them shipped with a cable that had USB-A on the computer end... and guess what? I bought USB-C versions of each cable quite cheaply. So, voila, an ereader I bought in like 2018 is hooked up to a 2024 iMac and doesn't need a dongle or hub.

Fact is, USB-A has been superceded. Yes, it's ubiquitous and will not disappear overnight. But we are in the phasing it out part of the process, which means the port disappears and you replace cables or use adapters (big whoop).

I, for one, will be very happy to never again put a bloody USB in backwards and have to reorient it endlessly because it's not reversible.

Or they could just include a couple of the most popular port in use like the Studio, Pro, and just about every PC on the market even today. Not unreasonable for a desktop that you make these connections once and leave it until you replace either the computer or the peripheral. If you're using the little adapters you're still using USB-A anyways

 

[Altis]

No. It is not just "the early adopters having to use hubs" because even if Apple provided USB-A "one or two ports" most folks need more USB-A style ports than one or two anyway. Basically everyone should have at least a cheap powered USB-A hub and many of us may want a more expensive dock.

Apple is smart to encourage USB-C with its faster protocols and symmetrical plugs. Slower asymmetrical USB-A should be discouraged.

I think a lot of people could get by with two, but even one is just for that just-in-case.

The front USB-C on the Mini are the same 10 Gb/s as USB-A 3.1 gen 2, so you don't get a faster protocol in that case.

The funny thing is nobody complains at all that the Studio and Mac Pro have some USB-A ports, because you can always not use them. One side of the argument thinks the most popular connection type should be available while the other wants others not to have it.

You still get all your USB-C and TB ports, why do you care if we get a couple USB-A still?

 

[Alameda]

I’m just curious, why would the new Mac Mini not come with USB-A ports on the back?

I understand laptops not wanting to try to fit these larger ports in their already very tight space. But why would a desktop not include such an inexpensive and useful port?

I want to upgrade from my old Mac Mini to a new one and now I have to go out and get not only a USB hub, but one that is powered because my little mobile scanner that I use on my desktop needs a powered USB-A port.

You can buy three USB-C to USB-C adapters on Amazon for a whopping $6.00

Six whole dollars. Yeah, Apple’s really left you out in the cold with nowhere to turn.

 

[Alameda]

I wish it were easier than it is. We've got 5 Gbps and 10 Gbps USB-C and then there's Thunderbolt 3, 4 and 5 (oh, yeah, and USB4 and USB4 version 2.0). Not all computer USB-C ports drive displays (thankfully Apple seems to get this right, but our kid's ASUS notebook PC's USB-C port is data only, not USB-DisplayPort-Alt mode). Not all USB-C cables are equal in terms of their data transfer rates or charging speeds. Not all USB-C chargers are equally powerful...an issue if you want to charge your notebook computer and your charger is too weak.

There are some efforts to clarify (like putting a special symbol beside a Thunderbolt port), but when I read in my tub of spare cables (and varied other things) and pull out a USB-C cable...I don't know just what it can do.

The various versions of USB-A (and why anybody came up with that weird-looking USB-B connector type?) weren't clear cut, either.

Apple really does do it right. On MacBooks, all USB-C ports can be used for power, display, USB or Thunderbolt. On the Mac Minis, the rear ports are Thunderbolt/video/USB and the fronts are USB only. I think it’s an outstanding connectivity implementation.

 

[Altis]

USB A is old. Time to move on.

Ethernet is much older, sitll on the Mini. Chess is old. Electricity is old. Being old has nothing to do with how useful it is.

It's still ubiquitous and is arguably more robust than USB-C. We've seen many people argue against USB-C with regards to the iPhone, preferring Lightning (as I do).

Computers have always come with ports lots of people didn't use and nobody cared that they did. How many people even used Firewire over the years? It had zero effect on me that others got a niche connector they use just because I didn't.

 

[haddy]

USB-A is an old antiquated port that should have died long ago. As many have said, u can get an adapter or a replacement cable on Amazon for virtually nothing.

Yeah well it hasn't died. Even newly built apartment buildings now incorporate USB A ports in their plugin connections. And for me I have Studios and I use the USB A to USB B cable from my machine to my integrated amplifier for my high-end sound system. Plus for thumb drives.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

You still get all your USB-C and TB ports, why do you care if we get a couple USB-A still?

Because the reality is that adding ports is not free. Each added port involves all kinds of device engineering issues: additional cost, specific protocol implementation, space constraints including how each port interacts with device heat management, etc. Plus including legacy port styles encourages other device builders to continue the lame old asymmetric USB-A in future designs; quite a significant issue.

 

[smirking]

Ethernet is much older, sitll on the Mini. Chess is old. Electricity is old. Being old has nothing to do with how useful it is.

Is there a better, more functional, and cost effective wired interface for networking than Ethernet?

What does Chess have to do with this? Why not use dinosaurs as an example? USB-A was good enough for T-rex so it should be good enough for me.

Electricity... do we now have computers that can run on oxygen? Did I miss a major scientific breakthrough?

 

[Altis]

Because the reality is that adding ports is not free. Each added port involves all kinds of device engineering issues: additional cost, specific protocol implementation, space constraints including how each port interacts with device heat management, etc. Plus including legacy port styles encourages other device builders to continue the lame old asymmetric USB-A in future designs; quite a significant issue.

It's the exact same protocol as the front two USB-C ports: 3.2 gen 2. They've had it on all previous Minis and still on the Studio and Pro. It's hardly difficult to include a pair of them.

 

[Altis]

Is there a better, more functional, and cost effective wired interface for networking than Ethernet?

What does Chess have to do with this? Why not use dinosaurs as an example? USB-A was good enough for T-rex so it should be good enough for me.

Electricity... do we now have computers that can run on oxygen? Did I miss a major scientific breakthrough?

The point is calling something "old" is not an argument. The question is whether or not it's still used and useful.

If we replaced ethernet (why not use Thunderbolt 5? Didn't wifi replace it, too?) you wouldn't immediately remove it from computers on the grounds that it's "old".

USB-A still accounts for the majority of devices out there, by far, including many new ones. That alone makes it not obsolete except for by decree by those who simply claim it so.

It's like getting rid of gas stations because gas is the "old way" and electric is 'tHe FuTuRe' while 80% of the vehicles on the road are gas-powered.

Rather comically, the iphone 15 and 16 (non-pro) use USB 2 speeds on their USB-C ports.

 

[throAU]

A lot of Mini owners don’t have wireless Apple keyboard and Apple mouse. Many use cheaper 3rd party alternatives.

Logitech wireless (non Bluetooth like most common for pc because pc Bluetooth is hot garbage) dongles work out of the box. If you went for a non compatible Bluetooth device plug it in (most charge and work via usb).

If you’re in the edge case of edge cases and bought an incompatible Bluetooth device without usb that’s on you. It likely won’t work during windows setup either.

 

[GusBougadis]

Let’s bring back the CD 💿 player too. 😂💿

 

[drrich2]

you’re in the edge case of edge cases and bought an incompatible Bluetooth device without usb that’s on you. It likely won’t work during windows setup either.

I keep an old Dell keyboard and Amazon mouse, both wired and USB A, for just such occasions.