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numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
Someone else posted it in the thread, so did not feel I needed to as well.

But here you go.


This Warranty does not apply: (a) to consumable parts, such as batteries or protective coatings that are designed to diminish over time, unless failure has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship; (b) to cosmetic damage, including but not limited to scratches, dents and broken plastic on ports; (c) to damage caused by use with another product; (d) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, liquid contact, fire, earthquake or other external cause; (e) to damage caused by operating the Apple Product outside Apple’s published guidelines; (f) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”); (g) to an Apple Product that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; (h) to defects caused by normal wear and tear or otherwise due to the normal aging of the Apple Product, or (i) if any serial number has been removed or defaced from the Apple Product.


And the link

http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/ios-warranty-document-us.html

Please note is is not very far into the document

And if it does go to court it will most likely matter quite a bit what other companies do, as it sets a precedent, as well as if there have been other suits of similar ilk.

the damage isnt caused by the service. its caused either by a deliberate action by apple or bug in their code.

and this is regarding warranty which does not have to apply to all the devices this can happen to.

possibly untested actions by other corporations have what impact exactly on trials? and again which company has gone as far as to damage the device the individual owns?
 

Capt T

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2010
971
252
the damage isnt caused by the service. its caused either by a deliberate action by apple or bug in their code.

and this is regarding warranty which does not have to apply to all the devices this can happen to.

possibly untested actions by other corporations have what impact exactly on trials? and again which company has gone as far as to damage the device the individual owns?

You do realize that if the part wasn't damaged, they would not have taken it to get repaired. So yes it was damaged/broken/failed. And throwing a part that is not approved into a device no mater what device, is not a smart choice. And no a wrong part does not constitute a fixed device. Also the warranty has everything to do with it, because they blame apple for it no longer working. If it had an authorized part, installed by an authorized dealer/repair shop then they have a case. But they don't. They put a part into the phone that is not for that phone. It worked until a new update. If they want to complain take it back to the place that 'fixed' it, as it is their part that failed the security check and made the phone inoperative. If it was the proper part it would not have happened


Pretty much we need to agree to disagree...unless you are just enjoying the debate...I have no doubt I won't change your mind, any more than you will change mine. I deal with people who think they can change stuff after we have left and then think we need to fix it...it does not work that way. You bought it, yes you can do whatever with it after....but that does not mean if you break it or do/use something not to spec, the manufacturer is responsible.
 

dotnet

macrumors 68000
Apr 10, 2015
1,669
1,397
Sydney, Australia
When it happened to me (on an unopened and untampered with iPhone 6) I didn't think much of it, but after 30+ pages of hysterical handwaving on MRF I'm starting to think it's most likely a bug. A typo, to be precise. The message was meant to say "Terror 53"!
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,399
23,907
Singapore
After so many pages, I am not sure how much attention this post will get, but this is a blog post which I feel helps shed some much-needed light on the matter.

https://theoverspill.wordpress.com/...le-between-conspiracy-and-rock-hard-security/

This blog post explains in great detail the (likely) logic behind the recent error53 issue bugging some of the iPhones which have had their home buttons replaced.

TL;DR - I am not making excuses for Apple, but I do feel that too many people seem all too eager to bring out the torches and pitchforks when it comes to Apple.

Ah, proof. It’s so hard to prove the imaginary, or to refute it. However the scenario where some Apple executives gather round a table and say “You know what? We’re losing valuable revenues and profits from people using third-party repairs! We need to brick those phones!” fails both Occam’s Razor and Hanlon’s Razor, the two logical tests that help you filter through a lot of modern crap.

I think it makes a great deal of sense, and helps shed some light on populist claims that Apple is deliberately screwing its users over just to earn a few dollars. I strongly urge each and every one of the readers here to at least visit the website and familiarise yourself with how Touch-ID works with the rest of the system, and better understand the context of the matter.

In no order of merit, here is a summary of the points in the article.

1. Touch-ID likely already stopped working after the home button was replaced. It was only with the latest software update that the users’ phones got bricked. I don’t see this point being emphasises much, if at all.

2. Apple has a lot of things on its plate, arguably even moreso than Google and Microsoft, since they are involved in hardware, software and services. It is inevitable that as you try to do more things, you will make more mistakes, and there will be more frequent lapses in communication.

3. The problem, assuming we can even call it one, is more likely due to poor communication between the touch-ID team and the rest of the organisation. What one side felt made for great security in its devices inadvertently turned into a PR fiasco for the rest.

4. Apple could have been more forthcoming with details, or even taken the initiative to inform consumers upfront, but I don't believe they intentionally set out to screw their customers over by bricking their devices.

5. iPhones are very complex pieces of hardware, and I can see why Apple would rather you bring your Apple products to their official retail stores for servicing (because they would presumably know better than a 3rd party retailer). The problem is that not everyone lives near an Apple Store, but that’s beyond the scope of this discussion, which is to determine whether there has been any malice on Apple’s part.

6. People who claim that they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their iPhones since they have already paid for it are missing the point. You buy the iPhone, but you still don’t have unlimited rights to it. For example, you aren’t legally allowed to try and pry into the secure element component of the processor, or decompile the software. Likewise, Apple tolerates users trying to jailbreak their devices, but this doesn’t mean Apple won’t go out of their way to make life difficult for you (because jailbreaking ultimately involves exploiting a security flaw in the software).

7. It's easier to sell news using the tried-and-tested conspiracy angle, all the more when it's Apple, a company which practically invites controversy with every single step it takes. The irony here is that these news outlets have likely encountered enough scenarios to know a conspiracy from a simple oversight, but still chose the former anyways, because it brings in the views.

8. Interestingly enough, the article goes on to note that Android Pay also sports the same requirements, which suggests that if Android phone users who have changed their fingerprint sensors might run into similar problems, though these issues will likely get buried because they aren’t considered newsworthy enough.

It will still be interesting nevertheless to see how Apple deals with the fallout, but like I said again, any claims that Apple is deliberately screwing their users over are premature.
 

Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
Apple earns their profits by offering users a great user experience which these people are willing to pay a premium for.

I am not saying that Apple is a saint here, but for the moment at least, Apple's interests and mine are diametrically aligned in that they have every incentive to sell me a good product with a great user experience so that I will continue to buy from them. Piss me off too much and they will have earned their last dollar from me, plain and simple.

Yes, Apple is a profit-oriented company, but even Apple wouldn't be so cynical and short-sighted as to risk all this bad PR just to earn a little extra money from repairs.


Security is never easy, all the more in a mass-consumer product where you have to find a suitable middle-ground with convenience and ease-of-use. It is possible that Apple might have swung too far to the opposite end of the pendulum in ensuring that their devices were as secure as possible.

It's also telling that prior to this event, no one else outside of Apple was aware that it was even possible. If anything, it's situations like this that convince me to continue throwing in my lot with Apple. I pay them to make the difficult decisions so I won't have to. Apple could have simply not done any of this and put the onus of securing your own data on you. If your personal data gets leaked because you engaged a 3rd party repair service, then so be it.

Apple will learn from the issue, tweak its policies and move on.

Boy will I be glad when the first Apple Store opens in Singapore later this year. It's always better to have Apple repair the product themselves. Can't pass the buck and I would trust them over any other 3rd party repair person.
Be that as it may,these users just lost a lot of cash including valuable data worth more than the phone itself possibly if they haven't backed up the phone.Apple Did this without an moments warning.Why not just disable TouchID and Apple Pay and keep the phone functional?Why not warn the customer of the risks in advance before starting the update?

This article perfectly sums it up
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2016/02/06/what-caused-iphone-error-53/
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,339
Gotta be in it to win it
Be that as it may,these users just lost a lot of cash including valuable data worth more than the phone itself possibly if they haven't backed up the phone.Apple Did this without an moments warning.
Maybe the users should have read the eula and warranty and not taken their phone in for unauthorized repairs? Probably was in IOS 9 from the beginning.
 
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Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
Maybe the users should have read the eula and warranty and not taken their phone in for unauthorized repairs? Probably was in IOS 9 from the beginning.
Yes I absolutely love paying Apple excess money for my out of warranty phone to increase their cash reserves even more.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,399
23,907
Singapore
Be that as it may,these users just lost a lot of cash including valuable data worth more than the phone itself possibly if they haven't backed up the phone.Apple Did this without an moments warning.Why not just disable TouchID and Apple Pay and keep the phone functional?Why not warn the customer of the risks in advance before starting the update?
If I am not wrong (you can read my post above), Touch-ID and Apple Pay would already have been disabled when the home button was replaced. It was the software update which triggered the authorisation check with Apple's server, which in turn bricked the phone when it discovered that the touch-ID key did not match the one in its records.

From what I gather, this (the possible bricking of the phone if they suspect security has been compromised somehow) is demanded by financial institutions, so Apple might have less wriggle room here. Either way, don't expect this situation to change anytime soon.

I agree that Apple probably could have taken more care to warn its users upfront (and with an error message that was more informative than simply "error 53"), but that hints more at a communication issue, not one borne out of malice.

Yes I absolutely love paying Apple excess money for my out of warranty phone to increase their cash reserves even more.
And you knowingly and willingly took a risk in having your Apple device repaired by a 3rd party service, very often an unauthorised person who may not know fully what he is doing. To the person, he is just replacing a piece of hardware. To Apple, there is a lot more going on behind the scenes which the repairman is not privy to, much less able to replicate with the tools at his disposal.

Sometimes it works out (like replacing the battery), sometimes it doesn't (as in this most recent case).
 
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I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,339
Gotta be in it to win it
Yes I absolutely love paying Apple excess money for my out of warranty phone to increase their cash reserves even more.
While I feel for these users the "unauthorized repair centers" could have warned these users. Nobody wants a bricked phone and hopefully getting the repair done correctly will allow the phone to comeback on-line. This most likely isn't a new issue to IOS 9.2.1 and has been around from the beginning; so these repair centers had to know about this.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
While I feel for these users the "unauthorized repair centers" could have warned these users. Nobody wants a bricked phone and hopefully getting the repair done correctly will allow the phone to comeback on-line. This most likely isn't a new issue to IOS 9.2.1 and has been around from the beginning; so these repair centers had to know about this.

Have you been reading the stories? This is something new since OS 9... Do you mean since "way" back then?
 
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Radon87000

macrumors 604
Nov 29, 2013
7,777
6,255
While I feel for these users the "unauthorized repair centers" could have warned these users. Nobody wants a bricked phone and hopefully getting the repair done correctly will allow the phone to comeback on-line. This most likely isn't a new issue to IOS 9.2.1 and has been around from the beginning; so these repair centers had to know about this.
If you read the lawsuit articles,Apple already said those phones are dead forever.There is no way of repairing them now.Its new to iOS because never were millions of iPhones bricked in one shot
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
When was IOS 9 released? Yesterday? No, in Sept 2015. So that is 6 months ago is my point. All sides had plenty of time to smooth this out.

With the assumptions that people started getting these repairs done right then and there. Fact is - it's not inconceivable that it took time to assess the issues/cause, file a lawsuit, etc. So I disagree - I don't think repair centers necessarily knew anything. You know I can call Apple, ATT, and other companies themselves and ask questions and get a different answer every time about an issue. Why would a 3rd party location have any better intel?
 
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Kabeyun

macrumors 68040
Mar 27, 2004
3,416
6,447
Eastern USA
Your argument cuts both ways.
[doublepost=1454879642][/doublepost]
Bingo. Nailed it right there. As an owner of an iPhone 6, I am NOT forced by Apple to use the home button enabled finger print sensor technology to unlock my phone. So even if I have never taken the time to set this feature up, Apple will still brick my phone if I have third party fix my home button?

So in this example this intentional bricking is based on what again--security they say? Shows just how Apple feels of it's consumer's intelligence while exposing their true intent of greed above all else.
How about lightning cable knockoffs causing the phone to explode? Also Apple's fault?

Suppose someone puts a third party media device in your car that has its own satnav. You just want the radio because it's cheaper than the manufacturer's, with no intention of using the satnav. Turns out the new device draws so much current it fries something in your car. Maybe the part is faulty. Maybe the street corner tech didn't know what he was doing. You're saying it's the car manufacturer's fault for forcing you to use their own known-compatible parts, even if you don't choose to use everything those parts offer?
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
20,399
23,907
Singapore
If you read the lawsuit articles,Apple already said those phones are dead forever.There is no way of repairing them now.Its new to iOS because never were millions of iPhones bricked in one shot
The article stated thousands, which is practically a rounding error when you consider the hundreds of millions of iPhones supporting Touch-ID and Apple Pay.

I am thinking that Apple might be able to do something if they still had the original touch-ID sensor to swap back in, but we may never know.
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
While I feel for these users the "unauthorized repair centers" could have warned these users. Nobody wants a bricked phone and hopefully getting the repair done correctly will allow the phone to comeback on-line. This most likely isn't a new issue to IOS 9.2.1 and has been around from the beginning; so these repair centers had to know about this.

Yes, the fact they're passing the buck makes to so called repair places the real culprits or completely incompetent.
Some people had this message 1 year ago.
If you know your repair will brick a phone, I'm thinking telling the people that pay you about it would be part of the service.

In this case, it seems those "repair experts" (sic) didn't give a crap about it, or lied about being authorized and that's why they didn't say anything.
 
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numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
You do realize that if the part wasn't damaged, they would not have taken it to get repaired. So yes it was damaged/broken/failed. And throwing a part that is not approved into a device no mater what device, is not a smart choice. And no a wrong part does not constitute a fixed device. Also the warranty has everything to do with it, because they blame apple for it no longer working. If it had an authorized part, installed by an authorized dealer/repair shop then they have a case. But they don't. They put a part into the phone that is not for that phone. It worked until a new update. If they want to complain take it back to the place that 'fixed' it, as it is their part that failed the security check and made the phone inoperative. If it was the proper part it would not have happened


Pretty much we need to agree to disagree...unless you are just enjoying the debate...I have no doubt I won't change your mind, any more than you will change mine. I deal with people who think they can change stuff after we have left and then think we need to fix it...it does not work that way. You bought it, yes you can do whatever with it after....but that does not mean if you break it or do/use something not to spec, the manufacturer is responsible.

show me where authorised home buttons are available for purchase? this whole thing has got nothing to do with whether the technician is authorised or not.

obviously people dont have the home buttons replaced if they are fine. that is kinda obvious.

the part itself is not causing the device to brick. you do understand that right? the manufacturer is 100% responsible for code that bricks devices.

it amazes me how far people will go to defend someone. and in this that someone is destroying a property you own completely. you would actually have a point if people were just complaining about the touch id not working.



and for people in this thread i called my local apple dealer (not apple store but the official one here) and to fix home buttons on a 4 and 6s they most often do an exchange which costs roughly $250 or $450. you dont have to be very smart to see the motivation here if this is indeed not a bug.

How about lightning cable knockoffs causing the phone to explode? Also Apple's fault?

Suppose someone puts a third party media device in your car that has its own satnav. You just want the radio because it's cheaper than the manufacturer's, with no intention of using the satnav. Turns out the new device draws so much current it fries something in your car. Maybe the part is faulty. Maybe the street corner tech didn't know what he was doing. You're saying it's the car manufacturer's fault for forcing you to use their own known-compatible parts, even if you don't choose to use everything those parts offer?

you couldnt have come up with a better example against your point.

inferior cables, power adapters or batteries etc that cause actual damage are obviously to blame. a software detecting a part that dosent do one function (which is optional) causing it to brick is to blame both not notifying the user and for bricking the phone.
 
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sdf

macrumors 6502a
Jan 29, 2004
927
1,297
If the OS would reject the repair right away instead of waiting for an OS update to lock up, then I would believe this is a security issue.

That's what made it a bug. It should have been enforced, but wasn't. Now it is. That's a fix.

It sucks when a bug fix inconveniences legitimate users, but it's still a bug fix.
 
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Capt T

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2010
971
252
show me where authorised home buttons are available for purchase? this whole thing has got nothing to do with whether the technician is authorised or not.

obviously people dont have the home buttons replaced if they are fine. that is kinda obvious.

the part itself is not causing the device to brick. you do understand that right? the manufacturer is 100% responsible for code that bricks devices.

it amazes me how far people will go to defend someone. and in this that someone is destroying a property you own completely. you would actually have a point if people were just complaining about the touch id not working.



and for people in this thread i called my local apple dealer (not apple store but the official one here) and to fix home buttons on a 4 and 6s they most often do an exchange which costs roughly $250 or $450. you dont have to be very smart to see the motivation here if this is indeed not a bug.



you couldnt have come up with a better example against your point.

inferior cables, power adapters or batteries etc that cause actual damage are obviously to blame. a software detecting a part that dosent do one function (which is optional) causing it to brick is to blame both not notifying the user and for bricking the phone.

If the part where not swapped out then it would not have an error...works both ways. Software looks for the security protocol, it isn't there, an error happens as the hardware is wrong. And it is nothing new, the software looked for hardware issues in OS8 as well.

Not every part is user replaceable. It happens on all types of devices, not just an iPhone and not just ones made by Apple. It is a risk you take using other parts in anything. If I had replaced a part and it was working, I would not have upgraded, but that is from experience over the many years Swapping stuff out on computers and such.

This is on the repair shop, not Apple. The repair shop should have warned them, it is their part that didn't work right with the update.

My opinion is nothing on the phone is user replaceable, not even the battery...I realized it prior to ever purchasing an iPhone. So I personally understand the risk, and in such bought Apple care. My choice, my piece of mind, and stories like this show me I made the right choice. I get not everyone can afford that option, but they bought into the system, and they agreed to the terms, both EULA and Warranty. They chose not to follow the terms of the agreement, their choice not Apples.

Since you are willing to call around about this, give bestbuy a call, and ask them if you swapped out any piece of hardware on an android/Apple/any brand phone,which you purchased from them, then were having issues of any kind, be it a fatal error code or not, if they would help you with fixing it. And it is a loaded question as I was chatting with a friend of mine who works in that department the other day about this. They won't touch the phone, like wont even pick it up if they realize it has been altered in any way, even rooted.

The end user put a part into the phone and now it doesn't work...this should be a non issue...they broke it not Apple. Just because it limped by for awhile does not mean it was a good option. We don't know what was hooked back up or not, and it sounds like from the articles people are posting there is a security protocol that needs to happen when replacing the button.

I feel bad for the people with the broken phones, but I don't feel Apple has to support them or parts that are not correct for the equipment, in which they did not install, or authorize.
 

numlock

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2006
1,590
88
no it dosent work both ways since this is a non essential feature. whether it happened last year has absolutely no bearing on this issue.

no knowledgable repair shops shouldnt even do these "repairs". the one who should warn them is apple when people start the update which ruins their phone.

why do you keep on mentioning eula and warranty without fully understanding what those mean, their legal standing in every country apple does business in and the exact clauses you believe you are referencing. im also starting to wonder if you even know what the word warranty means. a device dosent have to be under warranty or the owner to believe to be under warranty for it to be highly questionable that a software update renders it useless.

i care even less about best buy than about ms or whoever else you have mentioned. i called one store so that people in this thread could see actual quotes for these repairs which is part of the reason people do take the "cheaper" option.

no the end user put/had someone put a part in the one that is nor able to do one non essential and optional feature and apple breaks the phone. apple has known about 3rd party home buttons repairs since the beginning and yet this is what happens. your story on this not being a new thing makes apple quite bad.

That's what made it a bug. It should have been enforced, but wasn't. Now it is. That's a fix.

It sucks when a bug fix inconveniences legitimate users, but it's still a bug fix.

sorry what exactly is the bug and how was it fixed?
 
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CFreymarc

Suspended
Sep 4, 2009
3,969
1,149
I was literally just trying to find the link to send stories to MR, i was surprised to no see it already on the front page.

Its all over the media in the UK.
Wonder if anyone planned a short of AAPL before this got out so big.
 
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