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if ford made an amazingly great car (highly unlikely), and made a deal with a particular brand of fuel. who cares? Maybe, just maybe, the car is amazingly great BECAUSE they share the profits from the fuel???
Because without these profits the car would cost far too much to develop, and price the car out of the market...

I believe this is the case, as well. The iPhone may retail for $399, but the costs of its development (intial and ongoing) are probably far more, so it makes sense that Apple needs to recuperate those costs from the carrier. It's similar to other subsidized phones, except the phone isn't "free" to the consumer at the beginning.

I'm currently on a Roger 3-year plan (in Canada) at $50 that includes a fairly standard Nokia phone. So, at the end of my contract, I will have paid Rogers $1800 for a phone that probably cost $100 to $200. It's well known that the cost of 2 or 3 phones in built into the contracts. They will replace your phone for free if it gets stolen, for example (up to 2 times), and then you pay a small fee for any additional replacements.

I believe with Apple's setup, $1800 would only be twice the cost of the overall product/service, rather than 6 to 7 times the cost. Sure, they need to make a profit, but Canadian plans are ridiculous.
 
i'm pretty sure they'd sell a lot more iphones if it was an unlock product .. like all the phones Nokia or SonyEricsson sell.

Exactly. Apple's US-centric (read: screw the consumer) thinking on this is incredibly frustrating.

The rather obvious US example... What are you supposed to do if AT&T's coverage sucks in your area? What if your current plan is suitable for you - like all those prepaid folks on other networks who don't like the idea of paying monthly usage fees: take T-Mobile US's Prepaid SIM offering at 10 cents a minute without any monthly or access fees, for example.

Absolutely moronic.

...and yes, it's exactly like forcing you to buy gas from one oil company only. What if BMW announced that you could only fill up their new cars at BP because of the great.... what did steve say??? "cultural synergies" between the two companies?!?!
 
Not everything revolves around you [or me]. It's called compromise and I'm all about fair rather than one party getting more than another. Fair means everyone is just as happy [and angry, sad, ...]. Greed means one group is happy and another is quite the opposite. What's so good about that?

Strange, while everything does not revolve around me, why does everything have to so conveniently revolve around the corporations in your post?

Greed means one group is happy and another is quite the opposite, let's look at it.

1. When I buy a CD, I get a CD and the publisher gets a CD, both are happy right? No, just because some people choose to share their music with others, technologies are put in place that makes my Mac hang when I try to rip certain CDs. I am out of my money and I get a useless CD, who is happy? No one, because the publishers are never happy.

2. The iPhone saga is just the same. Please don't give me the shitz about how much risk is involved to bring the product to market and all the jeebez, Apple is making a thick profit on those phones at even half of the upfront cost of those devices, and no... they want more. But oops, it makes it too expensive, so they come up with this convoluted scheme just to protect "Number one" (them), who the f*ck wants a phone that you cannot bring into another country and pop a different SIM card in? Not me. Nevermind the fact that the iPhone costs with 2 year contract more than what other phones cost unlocked.

GREED indeed.

Who is greedy here?

Stop being a fanboi and actually think differently, for yourself, rather than being a iTard.
 
I believe this is the case, as well. The iPhone may retail for $399, but the costs of its development (intial and ongoing) are probably far more, so it makes sense that Apple needs to recuperate those costs from the carrier. It's similar to other subsidized phones, except the phone isn't "free" to the consumer at the beginning.

I'm currently on a Roger 3-year plan (in Canada) at $50 that includes a fairly standard Nokia phone. So, at the end of my contract, I will have paid Rogers $1800 for a phone that probably cost $100 to $200. It's well known that the cost of 2 or 3 phones in built into the contracts. They will replace your phone for free if it gets stolen, for example (up to 2 times), and then you pay a small fee for any additional replacements.

I believe with Apple's setup, $1800 would only be twice the cost of the overall product/service, rather than 6 to 7 times the cost. Sure, they need to make a profit, but Canadian plans are ridiculous.


If they were so worried about recuperating development costs, why would they restrict their potential market? Also if Canada is anything like here, you have the right to know for how much the carrier has subsidized your phone.
 
I believe this is the case, as well. The iPhone may retail for $399, but the costs of its development (intial and ongoing) are probably far more, so it makes sense that Apple needs to recuperate those costs from the carrier. It's similar to other subsidized phones, except the phone isn't "free" to the consumer at the beginning.

I'm currently on a Roger 3-year plan (in Canada) at $50 that includes a fairly standard Nokia phone. So, at the end of my contract, I will have paid Rogers $1800 for a phone that probably cost $100 to $200. It's well known that the cost of 2 or 3 phones in built into the contracts. They will replace your phone for free if it gets stolen, for example (up to 2 times), and then you pay a small fee for any additional replacements.

I believe with Apple's setup, $1800 would only be twice the cost of the overall product/service, rather than 6 to 7 times the cost. Sure, they need to make a profit, but Canadian plans are ridiculous.

Ah yes, development costs... the software.

Because we know Microsoft is so bleeding for cash with each release.
 
This is good news.

As a consumer who paid full price for a product you should be able to use it as you see fit.

Some people will cry out "visual voice mail, visual voice mail" so what ? when you buy your iPhone you should be able to decide which carrier you would like to use and thus decide which features/services will be available to you.

Apple is still making a profit at the current prices (look at the touch) they are just to greedy and narrow minded and want total control over their new baby. It is just stubbornness on their part in this case.

It's a phone people, what difference doe's it make who connects the call?... none ... other than the "special cut" apple must be getting with their current dealings.

Many people will gladly trade the infamous "visual voice mail" for the option of choosing the carrier they prefer.

As consumers we have the right to chose how we use the products we pay for.

If Apple is so concerned with user experience then they should remove boot camp from Leopard.

Others will cry out EDGE coverage in addition to visual voice mail... so? what if someone choses a cheap contract that includes no data? no big deal... people can use the iPhone as a phone and all the other goodies will be used when service is available or not used at all. Consumer preference.

since people are paying full price for the iPhone then they should be no restrictions on how they use it.

Use it how and where you wish. It is the right of every consumer.
 
The courts may force Apple in Germany to follow the French iPhone sales strategy where there is no exclusivity:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200711200503DOWJONESDJONLINE000177_FORTUNE5.htm
"Apple tried to secure a similar exclusive deal in France with France Telecom SA's (FTE) mobile operator Orange, but due to French consumer law other telecommunications companies have been selling the iPhone, offering contracts with rival operators Bouygues Telecom, the telecom division of Bouygues SA ( 12050.FR), and Virgin Mobile."

Looks like Vodaphone fear the Apple style of selling may encourage other manufacturers do follow suit ( which would be bad for consumers ) - so protecting themselves. Though I'm sure that Vodaphone wouldn't be complaining if they'd won rights to sell the iPhone.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._germany_to_sell_iphone_without_contract.html
"Vodafone Germany chief executive Friedrich Joussen in a statement said his firm's goal is not to prevent sales of the device but rather allow for consumers to purchase iPhones without binding themselves to long-term agreements with any one carrier."

This is great news.

Under European consumer laws, Apple isn't going to be able to prevent cross-country import and use of iPhones in different European countries - so selling it in one will essentially mean that it's sold unlocked in all. If they try to lock down in some way, the EU will kick their butt big-style.

I'm a big fan of Apple, but these iPhone contracts are just price-gouging. I'm totally behind EU law on this.
 
I'm on Vodaphone's side for challenging this, but anyone who says "Apple should just sell an unlocked phone" really doesn't see the big picture. People that say "Apple just builds the hardware, and it stops there" also don't see the big picture. Apple has faced a huge compatibility challenge with this product, and tying it to an exclusive partner gives them the control they need to deliver a consistent and reliable experience to the consumer. That's the gist of it. There are tremendous support costs required to support a device on the myriad of cell networks around the world. It's a shame that Apple has to forge such long-term agreements with partners (5 years is too long), but that's probably what it took to really make it worthwhile for the partner.

Imagine if Consumer ABC purchased an iPhone for use on Provider XYZ's network. Who does the consumer call for help with the product? Obviously XYZ won't have the technical expertise to support Apple's phone, so the consumer contacts Apple. Now Apple tries to help the consumer get the phone working on XYZ's network. The overall experience would be akin to today's Windows world... a mess. By choosing one partner, they can focus their efforts and train their staff accordingly, and the consumer's experience should be much better as a result. That's a big piece of the motivation behind this arrangement.

Remember that Apple may have created a piece of kit that has blown every other phone out of the water, but Apple is still a baby in this industry. It would've been a mistake for them to try and bite off more than they could chew. Their strategy plan is obviously spread out over the 5-year agreement they have with AT&T, and at the end of it, they'll be in a much better position to expand their offerings.

Nonetheless, I say keep the pressure on Apple. They may be new in the industry, but they are very good at what they do, and will quickly adapt to whatever changes need to be made to keep their offerings ahead of the competition on many levels.


Probably the most sensible post I've read about this whole thing so far.. no disrespect people, but if you love it buy it/use it/love it some more and when a new one comes out get that one too. :D

now if only i could get this 12hr clock thingy to work!!
 
Maybe this wanders off-topic a bit, but.....

Regarding your comments about DRM, *no* DRM is a "good DRM" for the consumer/end-user, ultimately. Apple's "Fairplay" may generally allow you to do the things you want to do with your media, without getting in your way. But it'd be better for everyone if it didn't exist at all.

EG. I bought a number of tracks from iTunes in the past. Since that time, I sold and bought several Mac computers, forgetting to de-authorize iTunes on some of those machines before selling them. Eventually, this caused me to reach my limit of 5 systems I could activate under my iTunes account and password. I had to contact Apple to have them "reset" my authorizations. Luckily, they agreed to do this for me under the circumstances, but ever since - none of my music ever played again. It keeps trying to authorize itself against my former, disabled account info!

Now, *maybe* I could harass Apple customer service enough and get this resolved in some inconvenient way (make me re-download everything I had before and issue me credit for those downloads??), or maybe they'd tell me "Tough luck.... your fault!"? Either way, this ENTIRE issue wouldn't have EVER happened if I bought non-protected music to start with.

I ended up replacing most of it with "pirated" MP3 versions off file-sharing networks and Usenet groups (which I think it perfectly justified since I paid once for these songs already!), and now - I'll have no more future headaches with DRM on them either.

SOME complaints amount to people just whining (like wanting their refunds for the iPhone price drops). Others are more legitimate. Complaining about paying good money for crippled music that only plays on specific hardware is a legitimate complaint.


Hi
Me. Me. Me. W-a-a. W-a-a. W-a-a. ... Sheesh!

I'll start out by saying that I'm for unlocking and fair openness but that also means that certain DRM and SIM-locking is fine with me, as well. FairPlay ( Apple DRM ) allows me to play all of my purchased music on any iPod, on all of my computer ( we have less than five ), and still make a few CDs. What's so bad about that? So you can't use a Zen or Zune. "The sky is falling!" I can't use WM-DRM files in iTunes or within the Mac OS at all. I can't purchase a T-Mobile, Sprint, ... exclusive phone because I use and enjoy AT&T. Eh? So what? There are more than enough similar alternatives. Stop complaining!

Not everything revolves around you [or me]. It's called compromise and I'm all about fair rather than one party getting more than another. Fair means everyone is just as happy [and angry, sad, ...]. Greed means one group is happy and another is quite the opposite. What's so good about that?

Some examples on how much greed is spiraling out of conrol...It's the "I'll sue you..." syndrome.

• I'm stupid and spill coffee on myself or just did it because I want easy $$$. No one has easy $$$ and you're no different buddy. Stop poorly attempting to be creative / sneaky. ( McDonald's lawsuit )
• I'm just too lazy or stupid and don't understand that batteries eventually don't hold charge but I have replaced them in my T.V. remote for ages without complaint ( iPod battery class action )
• I'm too lazy to work / feel I'm somehow special and shouldn't need to work like everyone else. I'll try to get $$$ I don't deserve by using Photoshop to create an image showing my T.V. has been damaged by a product that is supposedly improperly designed ( Wii commotion )
...And on and on and on....

Do you remember any time in the past where a game console manufacturer has sent out so much free stuff ( Wii jackets, Wii wrist straps ) because of stupidity / greed? I don't but maybe there is an incident I'm not recalling.

In conclusion. Sure I'd really enjoy being able to do whatever I want instead of being forced to do labor for someone ( job ) but that's just not how our society is designed and either you get a job like everyone else or you live in a dirt hole. Have fun!

P.S. If you couldn't tell, I haven't decided 100% whether the intelligence level has gone done os far or people are just that selfish. Either one astonishes and disappoints me.

P.P.S The above examples are of a small number of 'loud' people but still...
 
:confused: I'm all for lower prices, shorter contracts, no cancellation fees, but I just don't get all the fuss over the iPhone being exclusive to a certain carrier.

It's not so much that, but the fact that we pay full price for the iPhones, and it is STILL locked to the carrier. IT is fine if I am using it in the country I am in, which is the US for me, but if I go overseas, I do not want to pay ATT's High international roaming rates!
 
So many words…

This is an easy one.

Looking at the competition: A phone that costs 399€ with a 2 yr contract, will be around 699€ without a contract. (Look at German E-Plus Network web site for examples.) That's what's going to happen. Apple might want to keep the unlocked version pricey, therefore 799€ will be more probable—for an iPhone w/o contract, no SIM-lock.

It doesn't matter if 800€ is too much for a cell phone, or how much profit the manufacturer makes. The Nokia N95 is 700€ in Germany.
 
Apparently Germany is against a free market.
Sad world we live in.

Yep, many Germans are against a complete free market and so am I. Thank God we live in a social market economy. The state regulates the prices a product costs and under which circumstances it can be sold to the end-customer. That's both a good and a bad thing. Too much and you end up like the Soviet Union, too little and you end up like the USA. The right amount of regulation is the key here and it seems to work out pretty well for us at the moment, something you can't really say about the USA with their ever increasing national debt, the crash of the real estate market, the US-Dollars impairment, skyrocketing fuel prices and so on and so forth. Some of these things could easily be managed if the USA were a social market instead of a capitalist market.

And no... I'm no communist and not anti american - It's just the reality many don't want to face. It's credulous to believe Europeans are like Americans. You US-Americans have different moral standards and different laws than we do. Capital punishment, class action sues, immigration related differences, heck... You have a completely different legal system. USA: Common Law, Europe, except for Britain: Civic Law

So be the tolerant american you are supposed to represent.

btw... did I mention, that DTAG and it's subsidiaries like T-Mobile were German state owned until a few years ago. And afaik, the government still holds a majority of the shares.
 
Hey... I just happen to be going to Germany tomorrow. Does this mean I can walk into a shop and pick up a ready-unlocked iPhone, that I can use back here in the UK with my existing (non-O2) SIM?

Cheers
SL

PS: If not... doesn't matter. I will content myself with the food. IMO Germany has one of the most underrated cuisines in the world... yum! And the beer... now that's how you do it... sorry, I digress.
 
Famine, Genocide, Prejudice - Sad world we live in.

Not understanding how a free market operates - not so sad.

A free market has to be balanced with the interests of the consumer and company. Without this the consumer will soon be screwed over. All too often we see companies having to be slapped down by price fixing / colluding to restrict competition, unfair contracts etc etc.

You can see the results of a pro-company market ( to the disadvantage of the consumer ) in the u.s drugs market. Go up north to Canada and drugs become a lot cheaper... Another good example is the Motor insurance in Canada, especially Ontario... outrageous prices.
 
I don't like any kind of monopoly or exclusive agreements generally, as it doesn't allow for competition within each segment of a market.
eg1: I want to buy songs from the best online seller for the best music player.
eg2: I want to buy the best phone on the best plan.
eg3: I want to buy TV shows from Aussie channels, for my iPod

Apple is certainly pushing its weight around to make some changes and has some very locked ways of doing things. All things being equal, this would be bad for competition and make it harder for great alternatives to grow. Hard for unique new ideas to get a toehold.

However, in some ways, Apple's moves have been good for competition. The music industry was not evolving

Apple's vertical integration has given them the muscle to force the music industry to make some "novel" changes that they hadn't really looked at. And Apple's iPhone deals is taking a stab at changing the way phone makers and networks interact with each other.

----------------------------------
So

I know lots of people with good, expensive phones they got for FREE. They have no respect for them and want to throw them out and upgrade asap. Apple doesn't want their iPhone to be a commodity. They want people to be proud to own one and be willing to pay. They've achieved that (so far).

They also want an ongoing revenue stream. (And they seem to want to earn far more than it costs them to build the phone)

If Apple is forced to allow the iPhone on any network, this doesn't change that premium price, but it does remove the ongoing revenue. Perhaps Apple will compensate by forcing people to subscribe either to T-mobile OR .Mac in order to access extra features on the iPhone. Perhaps they'll just accept the base price for the phone and leave it at that.

I'm sure they'll work out something... the legal issues had to crop up sooner or later.
 
Exactly. Apple's US-centric (read: screw the consumer) thinking on this is incredibly frustrating.

The rather obvious US example... What are you supposed to do if AT&T's coverage sucks in your area? What if your current plan is suitable for you - like all those prepaid folks on other networks who don't like the idea of paying monthly usage fees: take T-Mobile US's Prepaid SIM offering at 10 cents a minute without any monthly or access fees, for example.

Absolutely moronic.

...and yes, it's exactly like forcing you to buy gas from one oil company only. What if BMW announced that you could only fill up their new cars at BP because of the great.... what did steve say??? "cultural synergies" between the two companies?!?!

And even more ridiculous given that apple seems to be giving all the big telecom companies a bite of the cherry...............but only in one country per company and not just using T-moblie, orange etc across the board
 
Hey... I just happen to be going to Germany tomorrow. Does this mean I can walk into a shop and pick up a ready-unlocked iPhone, that I can use back here in the UK with my existing (non-O2) SIM?

In theory, yes.

Depends on two things though:

1. DTAG don't just decide to take their ball away and refuse to play any more. Loss of their monopoly may be more costly to them than taking the phone off the market for a couple of weeks (since there will be a proper court hearing then and they can put their side of the argument).
2. DTAG actually have the ability to unlock iphones (will apple let them?).
3. Apple don't play games with the activation. 'it's unlocked.. but you can't activate it unless you are using the right SIM!'.

OK 3 things. Fetch the comfy chair.

(I really suspect 1. given the timescales involved - in one day DTAG have got got to unpack all the iphones in stock, unlock them, persuade apple to bypass the activation locking, etc. and for little gain to themselves - they'll sell absolutely shedloads of them.. but not get the contracts they were guaranteed before).
 
1. When I buy a CD, I get a CD and the publisher gets a CD, both are happy right? No, just because some people choose to share their music with others, technologies are put in place that makes my Mac hang when I try to rip certain CDs. I am out of my money and I get a useless CD, who is happy? No one, because the publishers are never happy.

I suspect that you won't find anywhere on the CD packaging a claim that it can be ripped into your Mac, so technically the manufacturers haven't promised anything they didn't deliver. In fact, most of the discs you can't rip don't even say CD on the packaging as they don't conform to the Red Book standard. Sad but true....

2. The iPhone saga is just the same. Please don't give me the shitz about how much risk is involved to bring the product to market and all the jeebez, Apple is making a thick profit on those phones at even half of the upfront cost of those devices, and no... they want more. But oops, it makes it too expensive, so they come up with this convoluted scheme just to protect "Number one" (them), who the f*ck wants a phone that you cannot bring into another country and pop a different SIM card in? Not me. Nevermind the fact that the iPhone costs with 2 year contract more than what other phones cost unlocked.

Well, don't buy it then.... To read half the posts on here you'd think that jack-booted stormtroopers were knocking down doors forcing people to buy iPhones.

Face it, exclusivity is one of the ways that free markets work. Games are released for one platform to sell that platform. Phones are released on one network to promote that network. Magazines publish exclusive excerpts from books and exclusive photos from events to sell copies. I hope you'll all campaign against these things as vigorously and look forward to reading your letters to Microsoft complaining about Halo 3's Xbox 360 exclusivity and demanding that they alter the 360 to play PS3 games. After all, it's so anti-consumer the way it is....

The way to get a corporation to listen is through the pocketbook, people. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the product: falling sales will force a change.

p.s. Don't you think Apple has lawyers that checked out the German situation before they announced the T-Mobile deal? Don't you think T-Mobile might have had a look at the legality of it as well? :rolleyes:
 
This thread could easily go off track :)
Some of these things could easily be managed if the USA were a social market instead of a capitalist market.

Capitalism works great, IMO, as long as there are plenty of choices & options for people. At an extreme - if you have 100 different phone manufacturers with different styles and ideas, the better ones will thrive while the crap ones go bankrupt. Same goes for all industries.

This in contrast to government run entities (whether democratic or communist is unimportant in this context) which are monopolies and can't go bankrupt for bad ideas nor thrive for good ones.

Over the past few years though we've been seeing huge consolidation of companies. The 2nd biggest company in an industry buys out the 3rd or 4th biggest company (etc). The wide variety of REAL competitive choice diminishes as the bigger companies now get economies of scale (cheaper products) while losing a host of competitive innovations that drove the industries (better and cheaper products).

Australia is following the US lead - consolidate everything to a few companies, then try to regulate those companies so they don't charge too much. Those companies then invest heavily to change regulation in their favour and have huge influence. I hope Germany is doing better! (and I loved my time there as a teen!).

ps. I'd like to see a law that prevents the top 10 companies in any industry from buying each other out. And that forces any company with greater than 25% marketshare to split in two. Impossible I know :)
 
So you believe that Apple was unable to finance development on the iphone and was dependent on subsequent profits from the carriers.

nope - im saying the device is only as cheap to initially buy BECAUSE of subsequent profits from the carriers.
And if they didnt take this profit, the iphone would be incredibly expensive to initially purchase, which could price them out of the market.

That large slick screen, powerful processor, elegant design, and world beating OS does not grow on trees.
 
ps. I'd like to see a law that prevents the top 10 companies in any industry from buying each other out. And that forces any company with greater than 25% marketshare to split in two. Impossible I know :)

You have competition law that stops certain kinds of takeover.. whether it works or not I'm not really qualified.

OTOH You can't currently stop a company becoming bigger and bigger until it starts to control the market rather than competing within it. eg. Tesco, Microsoft.

The french model where the government basically owns and controlls the largest companies is one way I guess, and it seems to work for them. The other way is strong consumer protection laws to stop the largest companies abusing their position (as long as it's not the UK where we have the laws but 90% of the country is ignorant of their own rights and the regulators are toothless anyway).
 
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