MP 7,1 Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1 A1991 (no more)

[AidenShaw]

I still prefer apple. They just stopped caring about workstation class machines and it showed in the trash can server. If they released a big foot style blurry image of a new workstation I would be interested.

Its funny because I was always using Mac with vmware to run necessary windows application. Then in the span of two years I went to mostly using PC with vmware workstation running apple for legacy applications.

I've made quite a few platform changes in my life (OS360/MVT -> RSTS-E -> RSX-11M -> VMS -> WNT) with some detours (OS/8, TOPS-10, RT-11, VxWorks, AppleOS (whatever was current in 1992)...) and a serious fork where currently both WNT and Linux are in the day-to-day mix.

You just adjust and move on. Apple is pushing a lot of people to move on.

Every OS has great things, and things that you wonder "how could they be so stupid". For Apple OS, "finder" is the "how could they be so stupid" example.

For Linux, "how could you be so stupid as to not have opaque APIs for system calls" is the Achille's heel.

 

[Mago]

Apple does not care about what you need, but they care about how you experience their platform.

Should, a PRO user don't care about GUI Whistles and Bells, we want productvity not toys, as a video editor what prefers a TouchBar or a Xeon E5v4 + HEVC Transcoding capable hardware ?

 

[vrBrew]

I've made quite a few platform changes in my life (OS360/MVT -> RSX-11M -> VMS -> WNT) with some detours (OS/8, TOPS-10, RT-11, VxWorks, AppleOS (whatever was current in 1992)...).

You just adjust and move on. Apple is pushing a lot of people to move on.

Every OS has great things, and things that you wonder "how could they be so stupid". For Apple OS, "finder" is the "how could they be so stupid" example.

I have worked with a bunch of platforms. They all have strengths and weaknesses. At least we don't pigeon hole ourselves by climbing onto the OS bandwagon to defend it at all costs.

 

[OS6-OSX]

It's almost funny how ppl are clinging to hopes and saying "THIS wwdc,

Not funny at all! This is directly from Apples site. Notice the figure circled. What's that in his right hand? There are many clues announcing a nMP!

 

[ShadovvMoon]

Not funny at all! This is directly from Apples site. Notice the figure circled. What's that in his right hand? There are many clues announcing a nMP!
View attachment 691001

Most of the figures are wearing nMP hats too.

 

[mattspace]

I don't believe user-accessible PCIe slots are coming back to the Mac. In fact, I think there's a greater chance they will disappear from the PC market as well.

I'm not so sure I'd bet on that - Gaming PCs are a ~USD$60 billion / year industry and growing at something like 20% annually. While the general non-gaming PC market might move to tablets and laptops, I can only think the resurgence of what's effectively reality simulation is simply going to keep eating as much GPU as companies can engineer, both from an authoring, and consumption perspective. GPUs are advancing at a rate that would require re-buying cpu, memory storage etc that hasn't had any significant measurable performance improvement - hence the very problem of most of the Mac range - everything in the machine becomes out of date, waiting on everything getting a significant synchronised refresh, because Apple don't want to try marketing "contains 10% new computer!".

The obvious solution is to go back to modularity as the core design principle, and be true to the aesthetic that produces, and let the capabilities be a rolling whatever is current now thing, but that's not the company Apple is any more.

 

[dfelix]

I don't believe user-accessible PCIe slots are coming back to the Mac. In fact, I think there's a greater chance they will disappear from the PC market as well.

This is completely and totally wrong.

RIght now this is the hottest commodity on the PC side. A PCIe 16x slot basically blows thunderbolt 3 out of the water completely.

Thunderbolt 3 = 40Gb/s,

PCIe x16 = 16GB/s = 128Gb/s.


Thunderbolt 3 is nice and all, but the actual raw power lies with the PCIe still

 

[OS6-OSX]

Most of the figures are wearing nMP hats too.

Yes, but you forgot to point out that they are "tinfoil" hats! Anyway, I wasn't suppose to reveal anymore clues but the excitement is overwhelming! Here is the definitive nMP proof for the naysayers! See how clever TC is!

 

[steveOooo]

Looked at dellboys xps machines - about £1.5k for a decent pic with nvidia gtx1070 (amazingly uses 75w less wattage than my amd r9380) probably £1.5/£2k cheaper than a MacPro base model (that would be need updating 2-3years later)

How often do dell and hp release workstations? Think dell came out mid 2016

 

[zephonic]

I'm not so sure I'd bet on that - Gaming PCs are a ~USD$60 billion / year industry and growing at something like 20% annually.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised by the numbers you are quoting. So I'm doing a quick google search and on the first page there are a few articles throwing out numbers between $20b and $30b in total revenue, annually.
Any market that has ~20% annual growth will have everybody and their momma jumping in on the action; I seriously doubt that is correct.


Wikipedia states the following:

The 2010s have seen a larger shift to casual and mobile gaming; in 2016, the mobile gaming market is estimated to have taken $38 billion in revenues, compared to $6 billion for the console market and $33 billion for personal computing gaming.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

Wikipedia cites this article as source for the quote: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-10-24-welcome-to-the-new-era-games-as-media

While they certainly project impressive growth for the gaming industry, it appears most of this growth will come from mobile gaming and subscription models.

 

[wallysb01]

If another Mac Pro comes out in the next nine months:

It may very likely be the exact same form factor as the current one, (yes another trash can) but will get modern specs.
And once again years will go by until IT maybe gets updated or replaced or axed in the future.

Since everyone has been traumatized by the current Apple computer situation, we'll all be looking at the same distant horizon together: Will any of us want to go down this road with Apple again?

I don't know if a spec bumped nMP trashcan will instill much confidence that Apple can be counted on in the future. Perhaps the point of no return has already been passed.

I think this is the main problem among professionals that live in a multiple computer environment or work in a larger team. If you need an new computer for a new employee or just to add to your processing power, you're locked into this one machine that might be 3 years old, selling for newly released prices. But if you switch your team/shop over to windows/linux, you'll always have the latest and greatest available. Even if they do come out with something new today, what happens 2 years from now? Is it worth it to just bite the bullet and switch over now? Well maybe not literally now because Skylake is just months away, but what happens when Skylake is available and there isn't even a whisper of a new nMP? I stopped waiting at Sandy Bridge, and boy am I glad I did.

 

[zephonic]

This is completely and totally wrong.

RIght now this is the hottest commodity on the PC side. A PCIe 16x slot basically blows thunderbolt 3 out of the water completely.

Thunderbolt 3 = 40Gb/s,

PCIe x16 = 16GB/s = 128Gb/s.


Thunderbolt 3 is nice and all, but the actual raw power lies with the PCIe still

OK?

Nobody argues otherwise. The question is how important this is for the average PC buyer. Declining sales indicate that it is probably not that big of a deal for most people.

Again, I did not say PCIe is going to go away. I said I expect user-accessible PCIe to gradually disappear over the next five to ten years.

 

[dfelix]

OK?

Nobody argues otherwise. The question is how important this is for the average PC buyer. Declining sales indicate that it is probably not that big of a deal for most people.

Again, I did not say PCIe is going to go away. I said I expect user-accessible PCIe to gradually disappear over the next five to ten years.

What you are saying is that the enthusiast market would die down, as this is THE staple of the enthusiast market and has been this way since forever. Tell that to the guys in PCMR

 

[koyoot]

What you are saying is that the enthusiast market would die down, as this is THE staple of the enthusiast market and has been this way since forever. Tell that to the guys in PCMR

Maybe it will morph into something else?

I always get baffled by people who are not able to think in future terms, and are believing that things will be always the same.

I have been writing about user-accessible PCIe disappearing from computers 2 years ago, on this very forum.

 

[dfelix]

Maybe it will morph into something else?

I always get baffled by people who are not able to think in future terms, and are believing that things will be always the same.

I have been writing about user-accessible PCIe disappearing from computers 2 years ago, on this very forum.

Only on the Mac side bra, not on the rest of the industry side.

Expansion slots are simply something that is here to stay, for at least the next 20 years or so. What you are alluding will not happen for a long, long, long-ass time. Maybe by then the next Mac Pro does finally come out?

 

[mattspace]

Frankly, I'm a little surprised by the numbers you are quoting

Here's some figures from a quick search - it's not the original article I remember reading, however.

http://www.gfk.com/en-gb/insights/news/2-in-1s-and-gaming-pcs-lead-profitability-pathway/

Money Quote:

Alongside the profound emergence of Virtual Reality, Gaming PCs, defined as devices with NVIDIA GTX, AMD Radeon R9 or Radeon RX GPUs*, are experiencing dramatic growth. 2016 saw 54% and 60% year-on-year volume and value growth, respectively, for Gaming Desk & Tower PCs, while Gaming Notebooks grew at rates of 54% volume and 49% value for the year.

~$60billion was the entire PC games industry as a whole - so I'm assuming gpus, systems, software, accessories.

I'd actually be more likely to believe that the user accessible processor, and ram will go away before the GPU, given most gaming systems are just a support structure for the GPU. Noone in this field has any vested interest in making user PCI go away - Apple certainly does, because the GPU is the only reasonable driver of obsolescence now, but in the gaming PC field, maybe Alienware has a similar motivation, but honestly being able to have the same GPUs as a home build is what lets them add value for turn-keying everything else.

 

[zephonic]

That link is interesting, but a little opaque. They throw about percentages without hard numbers.

Where'd you get the $60 billion from?

 

[mattspace]

Where'd you get the $60 billion from?

Honestly I can't remember - There's an Ars article in my history that pins it at around $30 billion, I may have gotten a figure mixed up based on that one.

Still from the perspective of GPU makers - there's nothing in it for them to eliminate user-accessible GPUs. All it would do, from their perspective, is make the cost of a GPU upgrade include the whole rest of the computer.

 

[koyoot]

Only on the Mac side bra, not on the rest of the industry side.

Expansion slots are simply something that is here to stay, for at least the next 20 years or so. What you are alluding will not happen for a long, long, long-ass time. Maybe by then the next Mac Pro does finally come out?

Have you ever heard of technology that combines multiple dies stacked on one package, and connected through interposers?

Its not Apple that is working on this silicon designs to work. Its Intel and AMD. MCM+Interposer + BGA packages. That is upcoming future, guys. 10 nm For Intel 7 nm for AMD.

 

[now i see it]

Apl IS such a strange company. They'll gladly part with a billion (that's 1000 million) dollars to throw away in a very questionable ride sharing "investment" in China (didi chuxing comes to mind), yet not spend a few million in pocket change to make an enthusiast's computer.

They could keep all their too slim & soldered, compact pretty designs they have now and just make a freaking "normal" computer that kicks ass. Charge a ton for it too. At least they'd have all the bases covered. It wouldn't even matter if it turned a profit. Breaking even would be fine.

 

[zephonic]

Honestly I can't remember - There's an Ars article in my history that pins it at around $30 billion, I may have gotten a figure mixed up based on that one.

Still from the perspective of GPU makers - there's nothing in it for them to eliminate user-accessible GPUs. All it would do, from their perspective, is make the cost of a GPU upgrade include the whole rest of the computer.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it's necessarily up to the GPU vendors, either. I just think of it as wider, general market forces that will inevitably lead to the decline of consumer-grade user-accessible internal expansion.

 

[fendersrule]

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it's necessarily up to the GPU vendors, either. I just think of it as wider, general market forces that will inevitably lead to the decline of consumer-grade user-accessible internal expansion.

I can tell you as someone who works for a large technological company, that PC gaming hardware is on the rise. It's expected to grow at 20% Y/oY.

Not having upgradable GPUs heavily reduces the benefits of gaming on a PC platform.

 

[JamesPDX]

And reduces the likelihood of a game being developed on a Mac. Wait. Wait. Maybe 3-D "Pong" -but you'd only get 30fps at 4k! Bam!

 

[Chicane-UK]

Apl IS such a strange company. They'll gladly part with a billion (that's 1000 million) dollars to throw away in a very questionable ride sharing "investment" in China (didi chuxing comes to mind), yet not spend a few million in pocket change to make an enthusiast's computer.

They could keep all their too slim & soldered, compact pretty designs they have now and just make a freaking "normal" computer that kicks ass. Charge a ton for it too. At least they'd have all the bases covered. It wouldn't even matter if it turned a profit. Breaking even would be fine.

I think that's, essentially, the frustration shared by many of us. We're not asking for some hyper innovation, amazingly packaged wonder machine (as cool as that would be). Just a system with some horsepower, modern components that will run macOS.. WITHOUT the need to go down the Hackintosh route. Please, some scraps from the Apple Design Studio will suffice!!

 

[Chancha]

Apple as a brand has become too hip and too cool in offering incremental updates just to satisfy loyal Mac users, at least that's what I gathered from them for these previous few years. Yes, myself included, would love to see the same old machines with modern component updates like they used to do, but that was the past.

Their agenda nowadays centers heavily around mobile (which means mainstream), being a fashion statement, less of a tool but more of a lifestyle. We are witnessing the ultra bashing on the MBP2016 all over the place on the internet from Pro users what not, but these don't really make a dent to Apple's brand recognition; wheres the average Joe walking into an Apple Store will be glared by the 500 nits retina screen, the Touchbar with colorful photo thumbnails, and speakers that are loud enough for music to be heard under that high store ceiling.

That Bloomberg "insider" article was tale-telling, if it were to be believed, that this MBP was rushed out for the holiday season window despite terraced battery issue not having resolved which forced them to put the old battery in. Why would a company like this have even the slightest interest in updating the Mac Pro then? They probably gave up trying to think of excuses on how to discontinue the lineup, and the accountants told them to just leave it to rot is better.