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Not sure I understand this. He is one of the most succesful product designers in our time. He has designed iconic products ranging from the iPod to the iMac and MacBook Air, which all defined their respective market.

The counter arguments regarding Ive can encompass ideas such as how much of what he is credited with, was actually just fulfilling the editorial and taste wishes of Steve, typified by the general post-steve malaise covering much of the Apple product line now, where most products have significant identifiable compromises that are largely a result of self-inflicted vanity design, most identifiably manifesting in "make it thinner" & "make it visually simpler". For example, the iMac and iMac Pro thermal limitation as a result of limited external volume.

Further, you'd cover the notion that the "clean lines" with which he is obsessed to a fault, are merely a form of decorative ornament, that are precisely about design as how something looks, over how it functions. You'd then compare that to Ive's self-identification as a designer who is more concerned with function. Include quotes of Ive as he postures as a capital M form-follows-function Modernist, then compare that to his practice, showing how his work is decoration & ornament-happy form-dictates-function PostModernist in nature.

You could then segue into a discussion about how Ive's design leadership, in following a mantra of trying to make things "easier to use" by removing capability and utility, is actually a cowardly approach to design - since the more things you remove, the fewer design solutions you have to provide to problems.

The products Ive has his name on may be successful, but they're also, uniquely, isolated from the sort of meaningful competition that would allow you to falsify the assertion that his design choices are the ones people want. The touchbar MBP may sell like hotcakes, but it's also the only current-tech macOS laptop you can buy, so it's success doesn't validate Ive's design choices. Maybe it's selling well because people want the touchbar, maybe it's selling well in spite of the touchbar, because people want a mac laptop with the most current processors, iCloud and other software stickyness, and the touchbar is just a parasitic technology that's along for the ride.
 
At this point, I'm waiting for the quiet cancellation of the MacPro entirely.

They've given nothing besides vague promises to suggest that they're still working on a new MacPro. Meanwhile, the Mac is being pushed out of corporate environments, and software developers are abandoning the platform.

Then we have Apple ditching OpenGL, so gaming companies that supported the Mac continue to drop support.

On top of all that, we have the persistent rumors that Apple will abandon Intel chips for the Mac, which means even more software developers will bail.

Our best case is that we get a new MacMini that has the same processing capabilities as the iMacPro. I'm not expecting anything beyond that. Apple has lost any trust I still had for them for desktop projects.
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The products Ive has his name on may be successful, but they're also, uniquely, isolated from the sort of meaningful competition that would allow you to falsify the assertion that his design choices are the ones people want. The touchbar MBP may sell like hotcakes, but it's also the only current-tech macOS laptop you can buy, so it's success doesn't validate Ive's design choices. Maybe it's selling well because people want the touchbar, maybe it's selling well in spite of the touchbar, because people want a mac laptop with the most current processors, iCloud and other software stickyness, and the touchbar is just a parasitic technology that's along for the ride.

Apple has a long history of succeeding despite bad design decisions. I present the poster child... One Button Mouse.
 
At this point, I'm waiting for the quiet cancellation of the MacPro entirely.

What's going to be interesting, is that unless the next MP is self-evidently user-upgradable with off the shelf gpus, storage, ram etc, what percentage of customers who might have bought one, will just decide to wait it out until a second revision is released, and Apple can prove it's not going to be another 2013 situation. The pent-up demand, might not eventuate for the first revision of the machine.
 
Count me as another vote for Apple cancelling the MacPro (or more likely just not announcing anything, ever). I'm sure Apple do their market research very carefully. I know a lot less than they do and I know that anybody who really needs (rather than wants) a MacPro has moved on a long time ago. Not enough professionals out there who would buy into a system that, all the recent past evidence shows, is unlikely to be upgraded (or upgradable) to any significant degree in its working life. Apple flagging up a "full" iPad Pro version of Photoshop shows the way the current thinking is going...and has been for a few years now. Apple isn't a computer company any more. They may do cross over products with computer bits inside but pure computers? Nah, not cool enough. Never turn over a trillion bucks selling boxes. Trinkets is where the money's at these days. Cast Iron, solid desktops don't turn over fast enough to squeeze revenue out of, and there ain't enough of us "users" out there to mass market a good return out of. Sad but true. Gotta keep moving forward, don't look back.
 
Make no mistake, this whole thing is absurd. We had the richest and maybe most sophisticated company on Earth essentially apologize for screwing up.

Just because Apple has cash money in their money pit doesn't Mac projects have a pragmatically limitless operating budget. That money is largely detached from yearly operational outlays for resources.

New or old Mac Pros neither one was going to substantively move the finance measurements needle for the overall corporation. Moving it for the even just the scope of the Mac business is unlikely also ( Over the years from 2012-2017 Mac unit and revenue numbers substantively grew. There is no huge strategic hit here. It is a nice to have area that they can afford to do. ).


That was a year and half ago. This wasn't the point Apple realized they f-ed up either. This was the point they acknowledged it to the public. Starting the 18-24 month clock at that point is silliness.

It isn't silliness. What is silly is not listening to what Apple says when they do talk.

"...
John Ternus ...
That’s when we realized we had to take a step back and completely re-architect what we’re doing and build something that enables us to do these quick, regular updates and keep it current and keep it state of the art, and also allow a little more in terms of adaptability to the different needs of the different pro customers.

Lance Ulanoff (Mashable): I’m just curious, at what point did you realize that? ...

Craig Federighi: I’d say longer than six months ago. But ....
...
At the same time, so many of our customers were moving to iMac that we saw a path to address many, many more of those that were finding themselves limited by Mac Pro through a next generation iMac. And really put a lot of our energy behind that.
.....
We did not fully come to terms with our need to do more until later than we’d like, with the implication that the next-generation Mac Pro ... customers want — until quite a while from now.
....
John Ternus ... We design something, it takes time for us to build the products we build, so it’s not so much about the CPU, it’s more about the overall system. ...
....
...
Phil Shiller ...
....Because the Mac has always been about that, it’s been about not doing conventional thinking, not ‘me too’ stuff. So the team certainly has been spending a lot of time with customers to understand what better would fit most workflows, to take the time to do something great, and something inspired and that we’re proud to put the name Macintosh on. ... "
https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/

Unpacking that there were at least two responses that Apple embarked on when the Mac Pro 2013 design didn't max out with their expectations. One was the iMac Pro. There are a couple of hints at an upcoming iMac Pro in this transcript; the above is just one. After they started to finish up with that ( and probably also the scope of the eGPUs got more grounded) , that they were left with a much more well defined still empty block. It is probably at that point that they decided to move to Mac Pro. All of these Mac product take long cycles with deep overall balanced system design.

That "talking to" at the end was only going to get broader in scope after this "pow wow" discussion went out of "extremely private beta" to a much larger group. The amount of feedback they were getting problem went substantially up after this. ( we not necessarily higher signal to noise ratio so would need filtering. )


They probably had 6-12 lead time, at least, into knowing the nMP was just not going to work going forward.

Your presumption is that the next Mac Pro is the singular response to issues that the nMP had. It wasn't and isn't.

The other huge presumption is that Apple can work on 3-4 "next gen" Mac projects at a time. Again there is little evidence to back that up over the last 3-4 years. The mini , MBA , standard iMac , MBP have all had year or more windows with no updates. Whether the "something deserving of put the name Macintosh on" has become such heavy handed dogma that they don't want to do more than 1-2 Mac updates at a time or that they are just being more Scrooge McDuck and too "small team" focused it is not really a "pro users" thing. The mini was about as 'old dirt design' and they did not much with it either over last two years.


Maybe they scuttled the Mac Pro for a time, but clearly they picked it back up at some point before figuring out this sheet wasn't going to fly.

But were they done with the background and market scoping work? It wasn't like they had just one response how they would all fit together is also an ecosystem design issue.


I've been on Ubuntu workstations and sticking with MBPs since this stuff went south in 2012. That was more than 6 years ago guys....

Apple tends to put more resources into things that people are buying rather than things that people are not buying. Buying less Mac Pros and expecting Apple to move faster on Mac Pros doesn't match their standard behavior . I'm not saying folks can't "protest" by stop buying. Only that is not likely going to precipitate a timely response from Apple. Maybe for a product that was 10-20% of revenues, but for a 'nice to have' product it extremely likely won't lead to an expedient resolution. ( butterfly keyboards too how long to incrementally 'clean up'. about two years. Even at higher percentages it isn't super speedy. ). More likely what it will do is generate more internal discussion inside of Apple as to whether it really is a 'nice to have' product or not. That is far more likely to stall progress, not enable it.

Does Apple have 'forever' to put together a response? No. Blowing past 3 years will have some negative outcomes for them. They are aiming at a really narrow market and at some point it will get so small it won't be viable for a company Apple's size and overhead constraints to participate in. However, I think it is a mistake to presume was moving at "full speed" when this April 2017 meeting happened. They probably weren't. They knew for sure that it would not be 2017. However, they were not confident enough to tag it definitely as a 2018 product ( as they did this year as a 2019 product). That doesn't sound anything at all like a company that had spent far more than 6 months a 100% speed. If they were more than halfway done schedule confidence would have been higher.

if they started around April 2017 and by April 2018 had high enough confidence to put a year range on it then that is probably closer to "halfway" (or more) in real time at "full speed" with the project. ( have had time to hit some milestones and see them tick off at expected rates ).
 
Not enough professionals out there who would buy into a system that, all the recent past evidence shows, is unlikely to be upgraded (or upgradable) to any significant degree in its working life.

What's more likely a deciding factor is how many Mac based "professionals" are willing to (or have already switched platforms. At my place of work, the video team, who are excellent editors but generally computer illiterate, bought new iMacPros recently, as PC is not a thought in their mind. For myself and the tech in the graphic department, we're finally considering PCs, as we don't see iMacPros having the needed lifespan.

what percentage of customers who might have bought one, will just decide to wait it out until a second revision is released, and Apple can prove it's not going to be another 2013 situation.

A very good point. What also concerns me is that if Apple expects 3rd party vendors to produce for their new systems, they may be sorely mistaken. After Apple burned the industry who had just finally started producing quality video cards for the cheese-grater MacPros, they'll probably be loath to get on board the new platform.

Myself, I'll probably keep my DarthMac until such time that it's not keeping up, or vendors finally drop MacOS support, which I fear might be soon with the requirement to support Metal for any graphics on the Mac.

What's going to be interesting, is that unless the next MP is self-evidently user-upgradable with off the shelf gpus, storage, ram etc...

My other fear now is that Apple, since they have a "mid range" iMacPro, might go so high end on the "new" MacPro that they chase off much of the possible audience as well. I could see a baseline of $8k for a functional system. They scare me with that talk of modular... my guess is only video option will be eGPUs.
 
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What's more likely a deciding factor is how many Mac based "professionals" are willing to (or have already switched platforms. At my place of work, the video team, who are excellent editors but generally computer illiterate, bought new iMacPros recently, as PC is not a thought in their mind. For myself and the tech in the graphic department, we're finally considering PCs, as we don't see iMacPros having the needed lifespan.



A very good point. What also concerns me is that if Apple expects 3rd party vendors to produce for their new systems, they may be sorely mistaken. After Apple burned the industry who had just finally started producing quality video cards for the cheese-grater MacPros, they'll probably be loath to get on board the new platform.

Myself, I'll probably keep my DarthMac until such time that it's not keeping up, or vendors finally drop MacOS support, which I fear might be soon with the requirement to support Metal for any graphics on the Mac.



My other fear now is that Apple, since they have a "mid range" iMacPro, might go so high end on the "new" MacPro that they chase off much of the possible audience as well. I could see a baseline of $8k for a functional system. They scare me with that talk of modular... my guess is only video option will be eGPUs.
For high end I can see maybe 2 lines of config

1 mid cpu (starting point) (2th cpu as add on) + 2 high end video cards
dual cpu + 1 video (mid range card) (space for 2th card)
maybe have an base with 1 cpu and 1 video card as well.

min storage 512GB SSD

the 2013 dual video card was an poor fit for some work loads and really made it hard to fit 1 cpu + 1 video card in that case.

The imac pro has a bit high of an hardware start point.


Now an $3K-4K starting mac pro can work along side an $1,200-$1,500 base super mac mini with desktop class cpu + at least mid range video.
 
Now an $3K-4K starting mac pro can work along side an $1,200-$1,500 base super mac mini with desktop class cpu + at least mid range video.

I have more hope for a MacMiniPro, that is basically a direct replacement for the existing MacPro, without the fancy design. My fear is that the MacMiniPro is actually going to be the core of the expandable-modular MacPro.

The real question is.. desktop CPUs or server CPUs? and what's really available? Given Intel's issues with the desktop line..
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Try as I might, I can not make an attempt at a humorous and relevant interpretation of these logos as they might apply to a future mac pro.

Perhaps the next macpro's modularity will exist in higher dimensional Escherspace ? Cubism... hmmm


https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/theres-more-in-the-making-apple-announces-october-30-event/

Haha... I can see it now...

https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/dscf2202.jpg
 
Try as I might, I can not make an attempt at a humorous and relevant interpretation of these logos as they might apply to a future mac pro.

Perhaps the next macpro's modularity will exist in higher dimensional Escherspace ? Cubism... hmmm


https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/theres-more-in-the-making-apple-announces-october-30-event/


Its the full version of photoshop thing. Artsy-fartsy-bs.

Oct 30 is late, I suppose thats because they wanted to keep it away from the preorders of the XR....
 
It is probably at that point that they decided to move to Mac Pro. All of these Mac product take long cycles with deep overall balanced system design.
Most of the companies who had long product cycles have either:
  • Disappeared (Digital, Silicon Graphics, Data General, Symbolics, ...)
  • Adopted rapid cycles with the latest commodity hardware (HP, Dell, Lenovo, ...)
Apple could drop all laptops and desktops without disappearing. You heard it here first.
 
Try as I might, I can not make an attempt at a humorous and relevant interpretation of these logos as they might apply to a future mac pro.
.....

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10/theres-more-in-the-making-apple-announces-october-30-event/

As the article points out the main focus of the event is going to be the iPad Pro + new Pencil and probably a new Mac Mini and entry level Mac laptop. If Mac Pro is mentioned it is most likely going to be a "oh by the way... we'll have something later" ( versus we have these other systems now or in a couple of weeks.). Apple has already stated they are not going to ship a new Mac Pro in 2018. So whatever mention it will not be about something you can buy ( or soon buy). It will be several months down the road at best. If lucky will get an update to something more fined grain that the whole year of 2019 at a target. The focal point of the even is about what to buy before the end of the 2018.... not about saving all your money until 2019.

If Apple is really far away from shipping anything then they won't mention the Mac Pro at all. There will be no tie in because it isn't even discussed.

New Pencil as iPad Pro as a medium .... yeah folks could create lots of different sketches with that. Like lots of different variations of logos.
 
This thread is more than 2 years old and there's still no updated Mac Pro in sight. All of you have been disrespected by Apple. Why are some of you still waiting and not jumping ship?
 
This thread is more than 2 years old and there's still no updated Mac Pro in sight. All of you have been disrespected by Apple. Why are some of you still waiting and not jumping ship?

I'm only here for the comedic opportunities, which more than often get taken seriously ( see above ).

That is really all that is left.

BTW does hackintosh count as jumping ship ?
 
This thread is more than 2 years old and there's still no updated Mac Pro in sight. All of you have been disrespected by Apple. Why are some of you still waiting and not jumping ship?

Because my DarthMacPro is still running, and still doing what I need it to. If it fails in what I need it to do, or the hardware fails, before replacement is out, I'll move on.
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Definitely, as it also gives Apple the finger in the process.

I'm an "influencer" in the hardware purchases at my work. Apple is on thin ice with me there, with another year, we may switch, and I won't look back.
 
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Its the full version of photoshop thing. Artsy-fartsy-bs.

It is probably going to be more than just Photoshop (which technically won't ship until 2019 ). What probably will see is a several demos of what other folks can do with Apple's new iPad/Mac common library frameworks. Some apps moved macOS -> iPad Pro and others moved iPad (Pro) -> macOS . I don't think Apple intended that framework to just to work in one direction.

Microsoft just did their Surface revamp. Google showed off Pixel Slate. Apple has to make the counter argument. And yes the iPad Pro is going to be a substantive part of that. New entry laptop will probably be another piece of the puzzle.


Oct 30 is late, I suppose thats because they wanted to keep it away from the preorders of the XR....

Pixel Slate still won't be shipping by the 30th. Surface Pro 6 not that far from initial ship week.

There was no A11X SoC from Apple. Reportedly, they will be jumping directly to A12X . i don't think it is the XR per se. They had to wait for the new 7nm solution. So they have to behind the ramp up for the all the A12 production. ( XS , XS Max , and XR ] plus do an even bigger 7nm die than that. Wafer start slots and yield are more than likely an substantive issue.

There are signs that the A-series performance growth that was suppose to rocket past AMD/Intel like they were standing still is starting to run into the some of the same issues. The huge bumps in performance growth are in the special computation aspects ( AI and some GPU functionality).

On the Mac side. ... if Apple is targeting new systems based on Intel processors .... it is more than prudent to schedule "late". Intel is also having production capacity problems at 14nm now. ( with the logjam of too many CPU SKUs on the same process. )

If some of the new Mac Minis are using bleeding edge APFS Fusion drive mode ... again far more sensible to wait for the initial glitches of Mojave to get nailed down before shipping 100's of K of minis with a problem out of the box. ( last several macOS releases haven't been fully baked out of the gate. )

I'm sure Apple will likely brag about their XS , XS Max and XR ship numbers in the first 5-6 minutes of the talk. But it isn't likely that is primary purpose for the later date.
 
I see the mini getting M.2 drives

Something APFS is much more comfy with.

As far as the Mac Pro is concerned we might hear about a new one but honestly if Apple hasn’t EOL it we won’t see anything till WWDC2019

Mark Gurman wrote this
In January:

So far, only two Mac lines include custom Apple processors: the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar and the iMac Pro. Apple is working on at least three updated Mac models with custom co-processors for release as soon as this year, including updated laptops and a new desktop, according to a person familiar with the plan.

———————————-

The desktop he talks about is the 2018 Mac Mini
 
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All of this speculation sounds exactly like the overly-assured belief that Apple would never release a laptop with 32 GB of RAM due to the long shelf life of 16 GB MBPs. The iMac Pro was unexpected to most, and although I'd never pay that much for a soldered-together all-in-one machine, the top tier model does wipe the floor with any previous Mac... I'm personally convinced Apple will be releasing a 7,1 Mac Pro. (The Modularity is where I'm a skeptic.)

And the belief that Apple's going to replace intel with ARM? It doesn't make sense. Apple knows their creative base, (a big chunk of who these machines appeal to), rely on programs like Logic, Adobe CC, Pro Tools etc... None of which are ready to run a full suite on iOS/ARM. (Although Logic technically could, Apple are well aware that Logic users love their 3rd party AUs.) Switching everything else over to ARM however would eliminate 50 percent or more of who the machine appeals to... ARM's going to be a coprocessor like the T2 that runs background tasks like notifications, syncing, icloud, itunes... Basically native mac stuff that already runs in iOS...

Plus, why would they have just introduced the introduce the iMac Pro with Intel, only to overshadow it with a machine that appeals to the same exact sector but runs only on Arm? That just doesn't make sense...
 
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All of this speculation sounds exactly like the overly-assured belief that Apple would never release a laptop with 32 GB of RAM due to the long shelf life of 16 GB MBPs. The iMac Pro was unexpected to most, and although I'd never pay that much for a soldered-together all-in-one machine, the top tier model does wipe the floor with any previous Mac... I'm personally convinced Apple will be releasing a 7,1 Mac Pro. (The Modularity is where I'm a skeptic.)

And the belief that Apple's going to replace intel with ARM? It doesn't make sense. Apple knows their creative base, (a big chunk of who these machines appeal to), rely on programs like Logic, Adobe CC, Pro Tools etc... None of which are ready to run a full suite on iOS/ARM. (Although Logic technically could, Apple are well aware that Logic users love their 3rd party AUs.) Switching everything else over to ARM however would eliminate 50 percent or more of who the machine appeals to... ARM's going to be a coprocessor like the T2 that runs background tasks like notifications, syncing, icloud, itunes... Basically native mac stuff that already runs in iOS...

Plus, why would they have just introduced the introduce the iMac Pro with Intel, only to overshadow it with a machine that appeals to the same exact sector but runs only on Arm? That just doesn't make sense...


The likes of Adobe, Maxon and Pixologic may well already have fully working versions of their software running on ARM. We just don't know what's being developed.

As for the iMac Pro, that was clearly a stop-gap machine designed to send a message to professionals that Apple were still in the pro desktop game.
 
This thread is more than 2 years old and there's still no updated Mac Pro in sight. All of you have been disrespected by Apple. Why are some of you still waiting and not jumping ship?
We simply can't change our routine.
We have been used to waiting and just reading this thread.
Waiting for so many years has sadly an impact in our brains. :):)
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I see the mini getting M.2 drives

Unsoldered ssd? or no proprietary connector?
Dear, it's Apple, nowadays everything is definitely different.
 
The likes of Adobe, Maxon and Pixologic may well already have fully working versions of their software running on ARM. We just don't know what's being developed.

As for the iMac Pro, that was clearly a stop-gap machine designed to send a message to professionals that Apple were still in the pro desktop game.

I rather think that the iMac Pro was the intended replacement for the Trashcan Mac Pro but something happened that made them change their mind...twitter outcry from pros on Twitter, VR/AR who knows?
 
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We finally had to jump ship, and replaced a number of our 5,1 MPs with HP Z8s. A rather dramatic increase in CPU throughput.
 
we dont go to other system because it is just not what we want. You can always get what you want, i know, but hey not trying is not geting you anywere.
had a hackintosh with windows 10 and tryied to give it a real try...
but it was just not a mac... even the „hight end“ gamer hardware stuff i used to built the hackintosh was cheap plastic crap nothing was reliable, it was geting the job done , but the user experience on the PC side was just plain pain.
Even the supermicro chassis I‘m using who‘s suposedly „high end servergrade“ hardware is just dirt cheap fabrication.
any one who have touched a X serve or a classic mac pro, knows how well crafted those machine were.
I wont switch to PC or unix, and I am a 100% sure that if apple dont give us the machine we want we will just launch a kickstarter project and built our own...
 
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